Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

[JonSetanta]

Damn... even 3.5e Jump checks still make me cringe. That's too far.

[Captain_Bleach]

Yet Another "Enough with Fighter threads!" thread
Sigh... I wouldn't be surprised if WotC made "Fighter" threads not allowed if this keeps up.

[Voss]

Thats rather a good idea. Its not like anyone ever brings anything new to the discuss. Just the same stupid shit over and over. 'course, we don't necessarily need to bring it here every time someone brings up the same old stupid shit.

[CalibronXXX]

That would be awesome. Next they can ban the term "CoDzilla".

[Captain_Bleach]

1196649931[/unixtime]]Thats rather a good idea. Its not like anyone ever brings anything new to the discuss. Just the same stupid shit over and over. 'course, we don't necessarily need to bring it here every time someone brings up the same old stupid shit.

Every Fighter-centric thread might as well be a repost.

[Voss]

Exactly

[Jacob_Orlove]

I'm a new DM, should I allow a warlock or soul-knife?

We spent our last session doing nothing but character creation and one person wanted to be a warlock and one wanted to be a multi-class fighter soulknife. I looked at both classes and I got this overwhelming feeling from both that they were broken but I wanted to get your opinions.

[CalibronXXX]

I'm a new DM, should I allow a warlock or soul-knife?

I'm co-DMing a campaign with a friend (mostly because I know the math for 3.5 better than anyone else in our group

I think his friends were being sarcastic when they told him this.

[Username17]

1196651353[/unixtime]]

1196649931[/unixtime]]Thats rather a good idea. Its not like anyone ever brings anything new to the discuss. Just the same stupid shit over and over. 'course, we don't necessarily need to bring it here every time someone brings up the same old stupid shit.

Every Fighter-centric thread might as well be a repost.

You mean how Khan the Destroyer comes in by the fifth post every time to say that a Core-Only Fighter is completely fine? Or the fact that the arguments he references as proving it are essentially on the grounds that if you burn through a huge number of potions you can barely sqeak by against level appropriate enemies if those enemies don't take advantage of their own special abilities at all?

-Username17

[Leress]

Isn't half the argument more to do with how the system works (feats, armor, and some styles of combat are just plain inferior) than the actually fighter. The fighter seems to be more of a victim of the system then the cause.

Now to the opening post...

There is nothing wrong with the Fighter class. It is a "build-your-own" warrior class; and, the real problem is that most players don't know how to build it. Yes, it has the potential for disaster, because the player has to choose the feats. Choose poorly, and your build is crap. Choose wisely, and your build works fine -- and highly customized for what you want your warrior to do.

So if I don't know how to build something, it will suck...no shit sherlock.

Now, the only caveat is that you can't restrict the Fighter to core-only. The feat selection is too narrow. The core-only Fighter has been fixed by the existance of numerous extra feats in the numerous non-core books. Allow all official sources for feat selection and you can build dozens of different styles of effective Fighters.

So if I add more books, I have more shit to sift through. Guess who else gets better when you add more books...every other bloody class.

Yes, it is labor-intensive to build a good Fighter. TS!! Buy/borrow/loan at the library all the books you can get your hands on to research the feats. The next time someone says the Fighter is weak or needs a fix, I'll first ask them: "Have you built one?" Then I'll ask: "How many feats did you research?" If the number is less than 100... OF COURSE YOUR FIGHTER SUCKS! YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO BUILD ONE!!

/rant

So if I do research my class would be better...*sighs* that applies to any class.

That was just a really bad rant that can be applied to any class, so you are not proving that fighter is good, but that research makes your class better.

[MrWaeseL]

Ah, the old more choices = more power fallacy.

[Fwib]

1196684804[/unixtime]]Ah, the old more choices = more power fallacy.

Surely having more distinctive choices is better than having less? At least when 'less' choices does not contain good options for many situations and 'more' contains good options for common situations that 'less' does not?

I can see how having a list of things to do that are all essentially the same thing could be confused with 'many choices' but if the abilities are different only in name, or are useless, than they are not really separate choices, no?

[MrWaeseL]

Surely having more distinctive choices is better than having less?

Actually it's not, because you still get the same number of feats to choose, regardless how big the pool you can choose from is.

[Cielingcat]

1196669258[/unixtime]]
You mean how Khan the Destroyer comes in by the fifth post every time to say that a Core-Only Fighter is completely fine? Or the fact that the arguments he references as proving it are essentially on the grounds that if you burn through a huge number of potions you can barely sqeak by against level appropriate enemies if those enemies don't take advantage of their own special abilities at all?

-Username17

You forgot his argument that Fighters can get big numbers and obviously that's what matters.

[Fwib]

1196687941[/unixtime]]

Surely having more distinctive choices is better than having less?

Actually it's not, because you still get the same number of feats to choose, regardless how big the pool you can choose from is.

Ah... sorry, I was confused, probably lack of reading - I intended 'choices available to the character in-combat/in-game' rather than 'choices available to the player at character creation'

Clearly having a zillion things you can never do is worse than having only a few things you can never do.

[RandomCasualty]

1196687941[/unixtime]]
Actually it's not, because you still get the same number of feats to choose, regardless how big the pool you can choose from is.

But having more choices increases the chance that you'll be able to find more synergies. The correlation isn't always true, but generally "more choices" does = "more power" and it's far from a fallacy.

[MrWaeseL]

But having more choices increases the chance that you'll be able to find more synergies. The correlation isn't always true, but generally "more choices" does = "more power" and it's far from a fallacy.

It also increases the chance you'll get 2 feats that don't synergize at all.

On the whole, I'd say that having more feats to choice from isn't better or worse than having just the core ones.

[Username17]

[Double Post]

[Username17]

1196692457[/unixtime]]

1196687941[/unixtime]]
Actually it's not, because you still get the same number of feats to choose, regardless how big the pool you can choose from is.

But having more choices increases the chance that you'll be able to find more synergies. The correlation isn't always true, but generally "more choices" does = "more power" and it's far from a fallacy.

Having more different chargen options doesn't make your character any better.

When they add more feats, they are adding more feats that your fighter won't have, because the number of bonus feats he gets by 8th level has not changed (5). Similarly, when they add more Wizard Spells, they are adding more spells that your Fighter won't have, because the number of Wizard spells he gets by 8th level has not changed (0).

Clerics get better when you publish more Cleric spells because he can draw upon any of them during an adventure. Wizards and Rogues get slightly better when more Wizard spells get published because they can spend resources to dumpster dive the lists to get at them in any of a number of ways (plus, none of the spells have any prereqs so you can just go grab them cold if it turns out that you want them. But Fighter Feats don't change a Fighter in any way. New feat chains may as well be class features of someone else's class - because you will seriously never see them.

-Username17

[tzor]

1196563008[/unixtime]] hi every1 im new!!!!!!! *holds up spork* my name is katy but u can call me t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m!!!!!!!! lol...as u can see im very random!!!!

On behalf of werepenguins everwhere I object to this blatent attempt at ah whatever it is. My NationStates character, Flash Blonde, werepenguin, rugby star, past delegate to the United Nations also objects and would (if he could) politely defenstrate you out of this room and throw a guenine Republic of Kenny C4 exploding penguin at the spot outside the building where you have just landed.

[Leress]

1196699104[/unixtime]]C4 exploding penguin at the spot outside the building where you have just landed.

Someone called us, dood.


A Custom Samurai

[Koumei]

DOOOOOD!

[the_taken]

1196728672[/unixtime]]DOOOOOD!

WARK!

[Surgo]

I tried to tell him to get rid of dead levels, and he just goes and adds stuff that gives you +2 to Profession (Gardening) checks. Seriously, what the fuck?

[Voss]

I'm just confused by the bit where he sticks a bit of his fucking soul into his weapon so he can get smacked by XP loss every time someone sunders it. What does he get for it? A slight bonus against sunder or disarm attempts 3 levels later, which inflicts an AC penalty. The bonus gets slightly larger at 13th level, and then at 19th, he negates the XP loss penalty he inflicted on himself. For no reason.

Oh sorry, xp loss *and* combat penalties. Which last until the DM lets him RP his way out of it. Classic!

Hell, I'd have a Sorcerer NPC just pop up and toss shatter at his weapon on a regular basis just for being stupid enough to play this pile of crap.


So I gave him my advice. I expect to be whined at for being mean, but he did ask for brutal honesty.