OSSR: West End Games Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (SW d6)

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squirrelloid
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OSSR: West End Games Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (SW d6)

Post by squirrelloid »

Before I get into this, there's some things we need to be clear on:

(1) I am strongly in team nostalgia here. This is one of the systems I have very fond memories of playing.

(2) This is from the 80s, 1987 to be exact, and so it was vastly more concerned with *simulating* a play experience that made you feel like you were in the SW universe than in any concept of balance. (We'll talk about balance, but that wasn't even a goal for them. I'm not even sure anyone was even thinking about balance in RPGs yet.)

If that wasn't clear, I own the first edition. (I'm vaguely aware of some things from later editions, but only vaguely).

Image

(3) At the time, the target demographic was more mainstream than Dungeons and Dragons. I literally got my copy at Disney World. There was a good chance this would be the buyer's first RPG.

Okay, on with the show.

Design and Credits
The book has 144 pages, 16 of which are glossy. Seven of those pages are a single-player adventure to get you in the spirit, ~20 of those are character templates, 10 of those are a sample adventure, 6 are adventure ideas, and there's text beyond that scattered throughout dedicated to roleplaying and GM advice, or sample dialog illustrating aspects of the game. Well over 1/3 of the pages are NOT RULES at all. This is a lean fairly rules-light RPG, especially for a simulationist system.

For the curious, there are only 4 pages of tables, all conveniently located in the back of the book for easy reference.

What's with those glossy pages?
I'm glad you asked, because there's some really awesome things going on here.

The 16 glossy pages come in 4 sets of 4, and in almost every case the middle two are a two-page spread. Okay, it's every case, but one of them didn't need to be, and was just a layout decision.

As this is a Star Wars project, some of those glossy pages (6 of them) are just collections of stills from the movie. That's okay, it's kind of expected.

Similarly, the opening 4 pages are glossies, and include the expected 'A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away' with scrolling text introducing the universe, the title page gets a two-page spread with a nice movie still and credits et al, and the table of contents which is laid on the corner of a Ralph McQuarrie concept piece.

But it's the other glossies that are possibly the best part of the book. (And remember, I'm on team nostalgia here, so this isn't a slight to the contents of the book). These 6 pages consist of two 2-page spreads and two single pages. All of them are from an in-universe perspective.

The second four glossy pages (first after the title page et al.) has an advert to join the Imperial Navy as its two page spread, encouraging you to defend "our great Empire from evil enemies who oppose law and order." "A challenge this big is not for everyone."

The last set of glossies features advertisements. The first one is an in-universe advertisement for the T-65 X-Wing fighter. In addition to the technical mumbo-jumbo you'd expect (even for a real tech product, since the marketing people don't get it anyway), it includes this gem at the bottom of the advertisement: "Original advertisement from Galactic Defense Review published before nationalization of INCOM by the Empire."

The interior 2-page spread is a vacation advertisement by Galaxy Tours, mostly focused on locations depicted in the movies, although it does include Coruscant (illustrated by Ralph McQuarrie art).

The last of these is an advertisement for the R2 unit, and it looks like an ad straight out of a technical magazine.

These are seriously cool, world-immersive design decisions, and I love them.

Thematic Introduction
Of course, the first thing you see when you open the book is the glossy page of a star field with a planet, "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..." across the top, and text that looks tilted like it's moving away from you. This immediately brings your mind to the opening of the movies, and immediately capturing that rush we got when watching them on the screen. It's an obvious design decision, but that doesn't make it less effective.

It quickly establishes the basic backstory - there was an old republic, it became corrupt from within, palpatine seized power, exterminated the jedi. Some worlds and peoples are in rebellion. Basically, our starting point is in-or-around the time of Episode IV.

(The only importance this framing actually has is that we know we're intended to play at a time when the Rebellion is small, and the power of the empire is greatly feared, so definitely not post-RotJ. But there isn't any rules reason why you couldn't play at some other time).

Entertainingly, and probably because the expected audience had all seen the movies, this (and the in-universe ads) are the extent of real universe building done in the book. We'll be introduced to relevant starships, weapons, devices, and so on, of course, but mostly for their relevant mechanics. Nowhere else does the book try to explain what the Empire is, or what the Rebellion is, and there's only the briefest of passing explanations of what a Jedi is in the force powers chapter.

Credits
Greg Costikyan is the sole designer, and is well-known for Toon and Paranoia. He has also designed award-winning board games.

Bill Slavicsek gets an editor credit, easily notable for his work on Dungeons and Dragons.

There are 23 accredited 'testers'. That's always nice to see. Surprisingly for the male-dominated hobby at the time, three of them are women.

Introduction
So, the thematic introduction was like the SW movie intros, this is a regular page that tells you important things you'll need to know to get started. This is the first real page (numbered 5, after the first 4 glossies).

This tells you important things like: 'we assume you'll join the rebellion and fight the empire' (which the rules don't require, but let's face it, that's why we're here), 'one person needs to be the gamemaster (GM)', defines what PCs and NPCs are, what you need to read for the role you'll be filling, and things you'll need to have to play - such as d6s. It's short (one page), it's to the point, and it points you at exactly what you need to have and read to play. You'd figure including this would be self-explanatory, but after reading Frank's review about the abortion that is Scion, well, the high quality of this one is definitely praise-worthy and apparently *noteworthy*. (Or maybe it was just the 80s and people knew how to actually put rules together so you could read them).

So, the next three sections are self-explanatorily named and will each get their own post below. They are:
Player Section
Gamemaster Section
Adventure Section
Last edited by squirrelloid on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:19 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

Star Wars D6 is the reason I know the name of every alien in the Star Wars Cantina, which I'm not convinced is a good thing. As I remember the system was fun and worked well at the low end, but went into crazy town as players advanced. What does that remind me of? You say Bill Slaviscek was involved? :wink:

Which edition do you have? The First Edition, the blue Second edition or the revised Second edition?
Simplified Tome Armor.

Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.

“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid »

Player Section

Important rules note: all dice are d6, so instead of writing 3d6 the game just writes 3D.

Chapter I: Creating a Character
This section is 4 pages long. That's it. Seriously.

Character creation starts with a template (templates are found in the back of the book, you choose one), receives 7D to add to skills, writes a physical description, and puts a 1 in the Force Point circle. Done and ready to play. Seriously.

(Rules note: skills build up from the related attribute. Attributes are fixed by template and never improve).

There's approximately as much text to explaining basic mechanical things (like how you read dice codes and what the difference between attribute and skills are) as there is explaining how you do the few things you need to do to make a character. And half the explanation of actually creating a character is examples. Heck, there's an example starting character sheet filled out for you on the page! You could teach this to an elementary school kid and they'd understand.

(Rules note: The +1 in 3D+1 is a 'pip', and each full die is composed of 3 pips, so you can advance 3D to 3D+1 by spending a pip, and 3D+2 to 4D by spending a pip).

(Rules note: Attribute die codes and starting equipment are based on template chosen.)

That's 2 of 4 pages. Most of the other two pages is devoted to explaining that characters should have some sort of connection to at least one other player's character, and how to do that. Apparently 'everyone meets in a tavern' was too cliche for Star Wars, even though they literally do just that in A New Hope. Actually, probably because they do it in A New Hope.

Honestly, this is really good advice. If you're going to have a consistent playing group, giving party members personal connections gives the characters real motivations to stick together and can contribute to player-assisted world building. It's a really good idea, and they have a decent list of ways characters might be connected. (The sample dialog giving an example of how you'd construct such a connection is kind of lame though).

The chapter ends with a quick note about reflavoring. Do it. If you don't like a template, find one which is close enough (or for the min-maxers out there, the attribute splits and equipment are what you want), and just reflavor it. The whole goal of the templates is to make starting out fast with some generic backstories you can plug details into and thus characters that are almost ready to roll off the rack. But if you want to write a whole backstory from scratch, feel free. The only critical parts of the templates are gear and attributes.

It also tells you that droids work differently, and there are rules for them with a page reference in the GM section. We'll cover those there.

One of the cool things here is that 'playing a non-human' is not at all discouraged. Some non-humans (wookie, ewok, mon calamari, i think some other ones) are templated. Others could easily be handled by reflavoring. And droids? D6 SW does. There's even rules for creating new templates (page reference to the GM section), although that's an area where the GM is handed great authority to say yes or no.

Chapter Two: The Bare Bones
This chapter is a quick run-down of how you actually play the game.

Rules Note: SW d6 uses the sum of the dice rolled plus modifiers (which may be extra dice or lost dice) and compares to a target number, called the difficulty number. Generally, difficulty numbers are pulled out of the GM's ass, but there are vague guidelines and some uses have specific numbers given (like combat). Sometimes dice rolls are opposed instead (Compare the two totals).

After explaining how dice rolls work in general (which takes a whole page, half of which is examples), we immediately segue into combat mechanics.
-Combat round duration (5s) and skill time (usually 1 round)
-Common bonuses and penalties to skill rolls
-Using multiple skills in a combat round
-Reaction skills
-Action segments (everyone gets their first action, then everyone their second, until everyone is done)
-Initiative
-Movement
-Shooting, dodges, grenades, hand-to-hand.

I'll note that nowhere does it explain how or why you'd use any non-combat skills. Presumably the player is supposed to think 'oh, i want to bluff him, so i should roll Con', but it isn't made explicit to the player. It is made explicit to the GM in his section, however.

There's two additional sections in this chapter. The first is a short one about character advancement via 'skill points'. This is one of the weakest parts of the rules, because the suggested rewards (3-10 points per adventure) result in glacial advancement (it costs a number of points = current die code of a skill to advance one pip, so 3D to 3D+1 costs 3 points).

The second section is a quick introduction to the force. There are two ways the force comes up: (1) force points, which you can expend to double your dice pool, and (2) force skills, which are unassociated with any attribute and hard to gain if you don't already have them. There's a quick explanation of how you spend force points, and there's a brief rundown of lightsabers and the three force skills: sense, alter, control. And by brief i mean 9/10 flavor.

A quick note: the game doesn't hate non-human PCs but it does hate characters who start with force use. Their initial force skill dice (1D each skill possessed) comes out of their attribute pool!

Chapter 3: An introduction to Roleplaying
This whole chapter, all 7 pages, is a quick demo adventure for 1 player with the book as GM. It features a series of numbered brief descriptions and choices that you work your way through choose your own adventure style, except some of them you go one way or the other based on a skill check. It's kind of lame, but it does give you an outline of how play would actually work that you can play yourself. Presumably you created a character while reading chapter 1 and use that to play through this.

So, overall we have about 12 pages, some of whose space is taken up by greyscale pictures from the movies, about how to create a character and how to play. It's general, it leaves a lot unanswered (like wounds!), and the assumption seems to be that the players are mostly rules-agnostic. They tell the GM what they want to do in-story, and the GM decides what should be rolled and what the difficulty number is (if it isn't opposed). This is great for a GM teaching new players how to play - more serious players will read the GM section.

If your goal is to tell a story in the SW universe, it's really not a terrible system. If your goal is to be 'challenged', well, it's not very good for that. There might be the illusion of danger, but unlike Gygaxian D+D, this is space opera and team good always pulls through in the end.
squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid »

Red_Rob wrote:Star Wars D6 is the reason I know the name of every alien in the Star Wars Cantina, which I'm not convinced is a good thing. As I remember the system was fun and worked well at the low end, but went into crazy town as players advanced. What does that remind me of? You say Bill Slaviscek was involved? :wink:

Which edition do you have? The First Edition, the blue Second edition or the revised Second edition?
I have the first edition, i'll amend the OP
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Post by squirrelloid »

The Gamemaster Section
This is about half the printed material in the book. As you might expect, this is where most of the rules actually are. Also, lots of advice about how to run a game, in varying quality.

Chapter One: An Introduction to Gamemastering.
In true 1980s RPG mode, the gamemaster does all teh work. He's supposed to provide a story with a climax (note implied railroading), make sure the players abide by the rules of the game, impartially referee the results (except he's pulling difficulty numbers out of his ass), playing NPCs, and maintaining suspension of disbelief.

Some of the advice is not bad. 'Use all 5 senses' is something that a lot of GMs really do need to be told, because we so often default to just describing what characters *see*.

"Be willing to improvise" - railroad, but be prepared to lay new tracks? I don't even know. 'Make sure they get to the climax you had planned no matter what they do'? Despite having one designer, he seems to have contradictory goals here - you're supposed to lay out a story without player participation, but also be willing to let players participate in creating the story AT THE SAME TIME. fuck.

Be consistent. Basically, the rules and the world should remain constant unless there's a reason for the difference. Ie, objects don't suddenly explode unless something causes them to explode, and rules don't suddenly operate differently unless there's something causing them to operate differently. This is the kind of thing that shouldn't need to be said, yet for some reason does, and I'm glad it got a paragraph.

Be responsive to players - it's their game too! *yay*

Then we talk about setting the tone. Banter with the players (the example is truly awful), lots of aliens, sci fi settings, etc... Also, because the source material demands it, "pseudoscientific gobbledygook". Ie, servomotors instead of gears and hydrospanners instead of wrenches, because George Lucas was a wanker. Fortunately the tavern is still a tavern... okay, it's a cantina, but that's at least a real word. (Sadly, you can't just order a beer).

The eight things to remember about being a gamemaster on page 28 is something every gamemaster should have to read at least once. Sadly, it is too much text to reproduce here, but to quickly summarize: You don't know everything, do understand the rules, be prepared to extend the rules (make shit up) as needed, expect to be wrong sometimes, be fair, be impartial in player conflicts, be prepared, be entertaining.

Chapter Two: Attributes and Skills
Rules Note: There are 6 attributes - Dexterity, Strength, Knowledge, Perception, Mechanical (Aptitude), and Technical (Aptitude).

It is page 30 and we get guidelines for how hard difficulty numbers should be. Actually, that's really good, especially considering 11 of the preceeding pages had nothing to do with rules at all.

Difficulties are sadly and obviously not balanced to any game standard. They just took numbers that looked nice and round, came up with a progression, and away we go. For the record, suggested difficulties are 5/10/15/20/30 for very easy, easy, moderate, hard, and very hard tasks.

Rules Note: Every (non-droid) character has 18D of total attributes, divided between 6 attributes (and possibly losing up to 3D on force skills). No attribute is lower than 2D and with only one exception, no attribute is higher than 4D.

It should be immediately obvious that a 15 is not 'moderately difficult' for most characters - even if they have invested a little into the relevant skill (so they're rolling more than their attribute). The average roll on 4D is 14, which is almost fair for moderate, but most characters won't even get 4D on most tasks. (And if you think character advancement actually encourages generalizing, you're fooling yourself). So most characters are basically starting off the RNG at most unopposed tasks and have to invest xp into getting on the RNG.

Also, the difficulty tract assumes that increasing by a linear amount is a linear increase in difficulty. This is patently untrue of course, but it's the 80s, so game designers knowing anything about probability or variance is a lost cause.

A not-stupid difficulty progression probably looks something like 5, 8, 11, 15, 20+. The last category really does need to be unbounded. On the one hand, if you play long enough you really will have someone rolling 7D on astronavigation, and figuring out a workable hyperspace route in 5s between two planets that are rarely traveled between should be a crapshoot at best. But on the other hand, stuff people invest time in should stop being challenging unless it really is a crazy feat. When you're the best shot in the galaxy, a merely hard task isn't really. But shooting the apple off your brother's head at 300 meters is more than just 'very hard'. (Opposed rolls, obviously, scale off the opposition).

But 5,10,15... is easy to remember, and you can kind of fake it by handing out a few extra dice at character creation and enforcing the 2D limit on spending to one skill at creation.

Amusingly, the GM doesn't have to tell the players the difficulty ahead of time. (They have reasons, some good and some bad, why you might choose not to. But it is kind of dickish).

"Roleplay it out" - 3 paragraphs to tell you that Magical Tea Party is a legitimate way to handle things. You can "roll in secret", and let the roll determine how well the players have to MTP to get what they want. Ah roleplaying in the 80s.

'Interpreting Rolls' - letting how well a player succeeds at something based on their roll is entirely optional, and left up to teh GM to interpret. The example involves letting the player get a permanent bonus on their starship for a great roll, so the sky's the limits here on how much having a nice GM can ratchet up your power. I mean, the idea is nice in principle, but considering that permanent bonus on the starship would have otherwise cost skill points (re: experience reward), whether or not stuff like that happens is a huge factor in how the game plays.

Skill Descriptions
We couldn't be bothered to actually tell players what their skills do, but someone has to know.

Probably one of the more 'interesting' (ug) things about SW d6s skill system, in light of future systems, is that it let you add skills to the sheet for stuff that wasn't covered. This means there was an infinite number of possible skills, and players had finite skill points to spend, of course. This isn't necessarily a terrible thing, except mostly it gets used for dickery. Want to use a wookie bowcaster? Gets its own skill. Archaic weapons like black powder firearms? Gets its own skill. Fuck you for wanting to use 'Blaster'. Oh yeah, and there's seriously a published adventure where stitching emperor beanie babies together to give to an orphanage is the climactic moment where you're expected to spend your force point, and they make it use its own fucking skill. I mean, fuck. So, not a totally awful idea if used wisely, but mostly it was just used for dickery.

Also, lightsaber is a skill that characters who learn to use one add to their character sheets, because it couldn't possibly work like other melee weapons. Fuck you force users.

Most of this section is dedicated to providing a bit more guidance on what difficulty scales are for different skills, which is of varying helpfulness. Some of it tells you what opposed rolls you might call for and when, which is more useful.

Note that the rules for Con and Command are *very favorable* to PCs, because its entirely based on how gullible the target is (or likely to believe the person using the skill), not how crazy the thing requested is. If you kill an imperial admiral, you can put his clothes on and seriously con the crew of a star destroyer or any fucking stormtrooper you run across ever and command them to do whatever you want. Social monsters are the road to real ultimate power if you go by the guidelines. Fortunately, most GMs have some sanity remaining, and because they're just guidelines and the players aren't even supposed to read this (but they will), you can just make difficulties reasonable, like impersonating an admiral *and* commanding the star destroyer to open fire on another star destroyer is an epic difficulty requiring a 50 or something, because fuck starting characters shouldn't even have a shot at that. (And people can fucking end up with 12D in Con).

Chapter 3: Combat
While nominally having a strict 5s/round pacing and referencing meters, the SW combat system is very forgiving to playing without a battlemat. Part of this is that most characters would rather fire a blaster than attack someone with a vibroblade. (Lightsaber? fuck you force users). That means that you just have to really declare whether each target is in PB, short, med, or long range, which gives you approximate distances in meters and thus how much movement would be needed to change those.

Of course, having an approximate map always helps.

Rules Note: A combat round has a decision segment, a declaration segment, and then a series of action segments until everyone is done. Once you declare for the round, your actions execute as described in order, one per action segment, with some responses (dodging) allowed.

Basic combat involves rolling to hit with the appropriate skill code, rolling damage (usually the weapon code, although melee uses str+weapon code; melee weapons just have a smaller code), and target soaking with str + armor.

A hit character either suffers a glancing blow (no effect), is wounded, is incapacitated, or is mortally wounded (or i suppose dead outright is the next step). Which depends on a comparison of damage to soak rolls, and works multiplicatively. (Damage > soak = wound, but Damage > 2x soak = incapacitated.) Taking a similar wound as one you already have increases the wound category by one.

Since damage codes are frequently on teh same order as soak codes, this means lots of hits deal no real damage, and most real damage is just a wound. Most mooks have absolutely worse attributes than the players, so enemies are more often incapacitated. (Melee is absolutely the road to real ultimate power here, and lightsabers even more so, which may be why they tried to fuck force users so much. Of course, a social monster just never fights, and isn't hated by the rules).

Being wounded makes you worse at most things by taking a die out of your dicepool.

Theres a section on using maps, miniatures, and other optional things you might choose to use. Note on miniatures: fuck squares. Come up with an inch to meter conversion, get a tape measure, and just measure the damn things. (Actually, in a game like SW this has a lot to recommend itself, since we really don't have to worry about stuff like reach weapons, because most of the combat game should be blaster fire).

As with all 80s RPGs, we also get a description of what each weapon is. No, not mechanics. Flavor description. This is actually kind of useful, since most people have never seen a 'blaster carbine' and you can't go find one in real life. Many entries reference a character in the movies so you can get a visual image.

Chapter Four: Wounds and Healing
This is seriously only 1 page long. There's a short bit on wound effects, then most of it is on how you heal. Falling and collisions somehow made it into this chapter too...

The gist of it is: being more than wounded sucks, don't do it. If you do, hope your buddies have enough credits to get you a rejuvenation tank somewhere, because natural healing is not recommended.

Chapter Five: Starships
Some of this is mechanical information, like what stats ships have (with stats for common things from the movies, like x-wings and TIE fighters). Some of this is how players without their own ships might adventure in SW, like book passage on a ship. Some of this is basically plot hooks (Pirates and Privateers, Imperial Patrols).

Rules for hyperspace travel are going to come up all the time if players have a ship. (And if they don't start with one, you're probably going to want them to get one).

Rules for Astrogation: How to railroad your players in space. Let me quote:
Gamemastering Tip: Making Rules Serve the Plot
How long does it take to get from Planet A to star system B?
The correct answer is: as long as you want it to take.
This is just after discussing standard rules for determining travel times. Because, you know, adhering to the rules you *just made* is too hard.

Also, random crap can drift in and out of hyperspace routes by GM fiat, so you can have that space encounter with ghost people from Denebulon 17 or whatever. Your sensors pick up an object and wham! - out of hyperspace. On the one hand, yay railroading? On the other hand, stumbling across stuff in space has a niche. Unfortunately, there's no advice about moderation in using this.

Starship combat: kinda like ground combat, except even less specificity. Seriously, these rules are made for IRC games. They're not terrible if you're riding a stock light freighter like the Millenium Falcon and a small group of TIE fighters or an Imperial Customs Frigate gets into a firefight with you. They are awful if the PCs ever have more than one ship. I mean, you might be able to handle 2-3, but it will suck, and after that its total crap.

They're pretty forthright in telling you 'this is not for mass combat in space'. Heck "We could design an game on [multi-ship combat] (and have)". Yep, that game is called Star Warriors, its a boxed game from the 80s, and it plugs into d6 SW pretty well. (Seriously, recommended) But if you just bought the RPG, too bad, you don't have it.

The rules for improving ships are ass. People can spend skill points to work on the ship and improve it, but only if they can make suitable rolls on Starship Repair. Generally, this means the one guy who has Starship Repair (typically the owner of the ship) gets stuck holding the bag, and can choose to reduce his own power to make the ship more awesome. Ick.

((Two chapters to go, I'll finish this sometime today)
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Post by squirrelloid »

GM Section Chapter 6: The Force

Force points are kind the kind of wankery that people thought were a good idea in the 80s. On the one hand, you can expend a force point to double your dice for a turn, that's good. On the other hand, whether or not you get the force point back or even get more depends entirely on the GM's assessment of how you used it.

You see, if you use it for evil, not only do you lose the point, but you get a darkside point. If you use it like a selfish prick, you just don't get it back. Being a hero only gets you the point back. To gain additional points, you have to be telepathic and know what the 'dramatically correct moment' is. Fuck. Did I mention you only start with 1? Did I mention there's a published adventure where the dramatically appropriate moment is stitching emperor beanie babies? Fuck.

(Rules note: darkside points will eventually make you an NPC. Yay!)

Next force topic: becoming a jedi. Short answer: fuck you. Long answer: You need to find a master. You can't actually find a jedi, because there are only two left and we know what they're doing during this time period, and it's not training you. But you might find minor adepts or alien masters who aren't jedi but do use the force. Ie, GM has to let you be a jedi unless someone is willing to set their character on fire to mentor you. (The Alien Student of the Force is the only template that starts with all 3 force skills - but of course loses 3D from his attributes in return).

Learning the force takes 1 week to gain 1D in control, and arbitrarium to get the next two at 1D. The timing is at the master's choosing, and the text says it could be anywhere from 1 week to 7 years. Ie, Fuck you. (Keep in mind that '1 week' or '7 years' impact on the game entirely depends on pacing, which is at the GM's control, but we should remember Yoda whining about Luke leaving his training to go on adventures. Your GM certainly will).

Gaining a force skill starts at 1D with no skill point expenditure, because fuck you for starting with force skills and having to lose dice from your *attribute* pool.

Basically, someone can choose to suck and start with force powers, and train other characters, and that's the only way you can guarantee you ever learn the force. The GM can just be a dick about it otherise.

If you have a master, you can increase your force skills up to their level as normal with skill points. If you don't have a master (or exceed them), you have to pay double, because fuck you for wanting to use the force.

Oh yeah, one of the templated force users starts with only sense, because he's self taught, so clearly masters aren't necessary. But self-teaching during a game? Fuck no.

Actually using the force requires picking a power from the list of abilities, and rolling the appropriate force skills against the listed difficulty. Yes skills, plural - a power can require more than one force skill and you have to roll each of them separately, because fuck streamlined mechanics.

Lightsabers are pretty awesome if you actually have the force. You can use sense to parry with (of course, melee parry is easier to get, and anyone can use a lightsaber if they can find one... hahahahahahaha). However, the true awesome is that you add your control to the lightsabers 5D damage code for damage, which can easily get you the largest dice pool for damage in the game (and swamp most soak dice pools).

Of course, this requires not only having a lightsaber, but also a decent control skill. This basically never happens, at least not for player characters.

Because so much of this requires GM wankery, I'm sure many campaigns involved GM penis NPCs who helped the party and were jedi.

I can't be bothered to reread the force powers. Mostly its a bunch of stuff the PCs will never do, and if it occurs in a game it's probably the GM being a dick.

Chapter 7: Other Characters

Part 1: new templates. Literally take 18D, divide it between 6 attributes (min 2D max 4D unless an alien), slap some background and equipment on there, done.

Amusingly, the equipment part has the following note:
Don't get too greedy, or the gamemaster may strike some items off.
Keep in mind this is in the Gamemaster section. I mean, I suppose figuring the players will read it isn't unreasonable, but obviously new templates is something that is by GM permission...

Aliens are allowed to get attributes as low as 1D and as high as 5D if they can be player characters. Otherwise, go nuts.

I should probably note that most of the section on aliens is probing questions to get you fleshing out the alien a bit more than just something that sounds cool. (Habitat it evolved in, what it eats, breathes, what the culture is, how they reproduce, etc..)

Droids: you can play them. Basically they have 1D for all attributes and a pile of dice in a few skills. As PCs, you will not get to play a droid which has weapons (at least to start...), but nothing stops you from having a buzz saw (for purely practical purposes, of course) and a fire extinguisher (which makes for great smokescreen as seen in ESB), or just being generally useful by gaining information, hacking computer terminals, and all sorts of other practical uses.

Honestly, its pretty cool that, the way the game is structured and typically run, you can play a noncombatant and still be useful and valuable.

Stock Characters
Most unnamed mooks are going to be a stock character. Stock characters have 2D for all attributes (that includes Storm Troopers) and a few specific skills with codes. This of course means that you can throw them at PCs in numbers and still expect the PCs to thrash them.

Named villains, otoh, get full templates and whatever skills you want to give them. Beware the GM penis.

Next up: Adventure Section.
Last edited by squirrelloid on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Surgo »

If I recall correctly, the Lightsaber thing got even more crazy in the following editions. You had a specific skill you could level up called Lightsaber Combat, and you'd use it for parrying shit and would also add it to your 5D damage code. I'm pretty sure it didn't have the arbitrarium fuck-you nonsense that leveling force skills did either.

The editions that came after first were way better. While the "fuck you" was still there, it left out the worst of it -- you were no longer explicitly told you were low-level members of the Rebel alliance, because you could fuck right off if you wanted to do something else in the universe or change the established story in any way. Like, you said the book tells you they assume you're just going to be a part of the Rebel alliance, but my recollection is that they explicitly told you that's exactly what you're going to be doing.

The latest edition cut down severely on the skill bloat, but there are still way too many skills.
Last edited by Surgo on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by fectin »

Blue second edition demanded trainers for every star, iirc, but only made a big deal about force stats (because there are no Jedi left).
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by squirrelloid »

Surgo wrote:If I recall correctly, the Lightsaber thing got even more crazy in the following editions. You had a specific skill you could level up called Lightsaber Combat, and you'd use it for parrying shit and would also add it to your 5D damage code. I'm pretty sure it didn't have the arbitrarium fuck-you nonsense that leveling force skills did either.
As much as I hate to actually defend saying 'fuck you' to force users, it was kind of warranted. I mean, the idea that force users are rare has in-universe motivation. If you want games to simulate the star wars universe, every game shouldn't include one much less several force users.

And lets be honest, wanting access to the force was wanting to be an extra-special snowflake. The whiny little bitch that luke skywalker is would get taken to toshi station and fed those power converters in most gaming groups. And if everyone wanted to be a jedi it would really ruin the game just because it wouldn't feel like Star Wars.

I mean, I'm sure there was (or would have been) an Old Republic splat which let everyone be lightsaber butt buddies. But in a regular campaign, people wanting to play jedis were asking to be promoted as mary sues above the rest of the group, and that just isn't cool at all.

IMO, they should have just told the players 'you can't be a jedi', not make it vaguely possible and tease you with it, but fuck you over all the time. Then if the GM wanted to let someone become a jedi, well, it was on their head. For my part, I just told players 'no force users' in every game I ran.

Regarding lightsabers specifically - these were basically unobtainium. I have the SW Sourcebook, and it lists lightsabers as extremely illegal on every planet and rarer than dark lords of teh sith. You will not find one ever unless the GM decides to give you one. So you have to start with one if you want one, and there are only two templates that start with one. (Failed Jedi and Minor Jedi, the latter of which gets only Control and thus only loses 1D from attributes, which makes it the optimal choice if your real goal is to optimize chopping stuff with lightsabers, although loss of Sense means no parrying blaster bolts).
The editions that came after first were way better. While the "fuck you" was still there, it left out the worst of it -- you were no longer explicitly told you were low-level members of the Rebel alliance, because you could fuck right off if you wanted to do something else in the universe or change the established story in any way. Like, you said the book tells you they assume you're just going to be a part of the Rebel alliance, but my recollection is that they explicitly told you that's exactly what you're going to be doing.
It doesn't actually start you as members of the alliance, it just sort of assumes that you'll want to join the alliance. It doesn't actually do anything to make you join the alliance - unless your GM is going to railroad you into doing so, but that's on the GM's head. The starting adventure (coming up in the next section) is a join the rebel alliance mission, but the GM is by no means compelled to run it. And heck, the rules and setting flavor on getting passage would be kind of superfluous if you were just placed with the rebellion, since they could provide you with ships and material. Much of the rules assume you're on your own. (A big impetus to have characters join the rebellion is it gives them access to a ship or ships without having to worry about whether they can scrounge the credits for one).

I certainly never felt compelled by the rules to make my players join the rebellion, and I think only half the campaigns I ever played even mentioned the rebels. (Heck, we worked for the empire one campaign).

Now, it does steer the GM away from changing the events that are depicted on screen. Luke still gets to blow up the death star, etc... It wants you to tell your own stories, not just replay the movies. (And lets be honest, replaying the movies is kind of lame).
The latest edition cut down severely on the skill bloat, but there are still way too many skills.
There are only 5-8 skills per attribute generically. Its the 'you can add additional skills' part which can cause problems if your published materials develop this terrible habit of introducing bullshit skills. Which they do.

Now, some of this stuff could probably be simplified a bit. Brawl/Brawling parry and Melee/Melee Parry could probably be one skill each or combined into a single paired stats. (Also, why brawl is in strength but the other three are in dex i'll never know). Well, making brawl and melee use the same skill pair is probably best, since you can't really unify the blaster/dodge pair, and having that symmetry is nice.

There are too many knowledge skills, and there's little-to-no reason that Alien Races, Cultures, and Languages all need to be separate knowledges, since they're mostly synonomous. Actually, I'd probably bundle Culture with Languages, and have Alien Races be contained within Planetary Systems. That cuts down knowledge skills by 25%, and no one invests heavily here anyway!

Security is really just a special instance of Computer Prog/Repair, because all alarms and locks are computer controlled anyway. If you do manage to get shackled with non-computerized equipment, its really not a *Technical* check anyway, and probably falls under Streetwise.

But I can't really see cutting down the skill list much more than that. Maybe you can eliminate heavy weapons...

Also, Beast Riding needs to be somewhere other than Mechanical, and probably doesn't need to be a standard skill at all...
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Post by Surgo »

squirreloid wrote:IMO, they should have just told the players 'you can't be a jedi', not make it vaguely possible and tease you with it, but fuck you over all the time.
I think this is pretty lame, though. If you're playing Star Wars, it's kind of assumed that jedi are part and partial of the package. I mean, Star Wars really only has two things going for it: Jedi, and cool space combat. If you're going to get rid of half of that, you might as well play something else. So I find it pretty offensive when a Star Wars game has flatly unplayable Jedi, whether through "fuck you" mechanics or just straight-up "no you can't do this".

Just my opinion on the matter, anyway.
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Post by squirrelloid »

Surgo wrote:
squirreloid wrote:IMO, they should have just told the players 'you can't be a jedi', not make it vaguely possible and tease you with it, but fuck you over all the time.
I think this is pretty lame, though. If you're playing Star Wars, it's kind of assumed that jedi are part and partial of the package. I mean, Star Wars really only has two things going for it: Jedi, and cool space combat. If you're going to get rid of half of that, you might as well play something else. So I find it pretty offensive when a Star Wars game has flatly unplayable Jedi, whether through "fuck you" mechanics or just straight-up "no you can't do this".

Just my opinion on the matter, anyway.
Eh, I disagree. Star Wars had a lot of setting stuff going for it, including ubiquitous aliens, an Empire that could be portrayed as anything from 'the bad guys' to 'the only source of local law' (eg, Troops), varied worlds with strange landscapes, and a large class of persons who lived between the cracks of the law. Telling stories about the Han Solos of the setting is vastly more interesting than the Luke Skywalkers.

Edit: Also, teh force is most effective when it's rare and mysterious, which means not having everyone playing a force user. And listening to players argue about who gets to be the force user is also annoying. It would be like D+D if everyone wanted to be a wizard, except wizards were supposed to be rare in the setting. Either you blow up the setting and let everyone be a wizard, you make most of the players unhappy by letting one player be a wizard, or you just say 'no wizards' to start with.
Last edited by squirrelloid on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by squirrelloid »

Adventure Section

Chapter One: Running Adventures
Its never a good sign when the first thing the book tells you is 'you should run a few published adventures that we'll sell you, to get the hang of it.' Its especially not a good sign when I can't say I've played a single published adventure of d6 SW that didn't make me want to punch somebody. The one printed in the book (which I have not actually played, ever) is better than any of the published adventures I've actually played, which is sad, although that may have something to do with the fact that I've only ever played published adventures at GenCon.

Lolworthy:
Sessions taking up to 12 hours are not unheard of - but the idea of that much fun is too exhausting to even contemplate.
There's also more bad dialog about introducing characters. Seriously, the book goes overboard with bad examples of player dialog to illustrate points.

There's a lot of good advice in this book, but this chapter proves that even someone who seems to know how to run a real game can also give really bad advice.

Example: starting adventures with scripts that your players are compelled to participate in. (Because nothing says 'Fuck you' to player creative involvement like hijacking their characters to speak the GM's awful dialog).

Example: in media res. It works in books and movies because *we aren't the characters*, we're just watching or reading what happens to them. Putting player characters in the middle of a situation takes agency out of their hands, and that's bad.

Also: advice on how to railroad without looking like you're railroading. I only wish I was making that up.

It's not all bad. They give a number of ways to keep things moving when the players get stuck or otherwise things slow to a halt, and most of them are actually good pieces of advice.

And some of their advice is very clearly focused on the idea that despite being labeled a 'roleplaying game', they don't actually expect you to play a game so much as engage in storytelling time. The book actively encourages you to scrap the rules if they're slowing you down too much. How useful that is as advice strongly depends on the group and what they expect to get out of playing. (I suspect player maturity is a big factor here as well).

Nothing brings this focus home more than the several pages they spend talking about the players having script immunity. Heroes don't fail when it counts, and they don't die unless it's sacrificing themselves heroically so the mission succeeds. I'm not kidding about the several pages part - it talks about how to turn apparent failure into a dramatic moment, when it's okay for the heroes to fail, and what kind of consequences you can use that are short of death or total loss.

At the end of the day, if this is what your players want, it's not bad-wrong fun. But gamists are going to hate it, a lot. There isn't supposed to be objective challenge in SW as written.

There's also a little bit talking about what stories in Star Wars should be like: things like being large in scope. This carries over into the next chapter a bit as well. The notable thing here is that the writer doesn't think SW should be about moral questions - the good guys are good and the bad guys are evil. Of course, the whole force code of conduct thing for jedis is fundamentally about good and evil, so i think he's confused. And it's not that the bad guys are evil because they're the bad guys. They're evil in the movies because they do evil things like blow up fucking inhabited planets. Episode IV would fail without that basic demonstration of the Empire crossing the moral event horizon.

Chapter Two: Designing Adventures
There's a full fucking page about what Space Opera is and isn't. All they had to say was 'space opera is epic fantasy with blasters and spaceships, not science fiction'.

The rest of the chapter is actually really good. Quite possibly the best 'how to design an adventure' advice i've seen in print. It covers variety of challenges, use of NPCs, objectives, settings, and motivating the PCs to actually care about the adventure. (This last one is failed significantly in published adventures for many games, including some D+D adventures.) It's also only 3.5 pages of such advice.

Chapter Three: "Rebel Breakout"
This is a starting adventure. It's a 'the PCs join the alliance' mission, and it's not terrible, but there is some weirdness in set-up. The PCs start in an abandoned mine with a crate of equipment and a droid who's supposed to assist them, get attacked by imperials, and have to race through the mine to get to the escape shuttle. Why they weren't given the equipment at the shuttle is a question that can only be answered by 'it wouldn't allow us to have a run'n'gun battle with imperials along the way'.

Also, adventure has an opening script that is chock full of railroading. Although I suppose if the PCs wanted to join the rebellion anyway, it's mostly railroading they want to agree to. It's also totally unnecessary.

Chapter 4: Adventure Ideas
These vary from bad to awful, but what can you do? (Other than not use them, of course.)

There will be one more post coming, to discuss some game issues and also to talk about the only major addition I know of from the 2nd edition - the Wild Die. (Seriously, I've played in 2nd edition campaigns and that was literally the only change I needed to learn.)
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Post by squirrelloid »

The Wild Die
The big thing in 2nd edition is the wild die. Basically, one of your dice is open-ended - if you roll a 6, you get to roll another die (which is also wild), and if you roll a 1, you eliminate it and the highest die roll.

This is a fucking terrible mechanic.

On the one hand, 1s eliminating dice is just a big fuck you to characters who invest dice in a skill, because frequently they'd rather roll without the wild die. Also, every time you roll a wild 6, 1/6 of the time the additional die will kill both itself and the 6 your rolled, which is a real let down in play.

On the other hand, it creates perverse incentives in action declaration. So, every round you can move and take an action at no penalty. If you take more than one action, you take a -1D penalty for every action after the first. (And reactions add to this at the moment you take the reaction).

So, let's imagine you're a poor dex template character (likely the team technician or face or something) with no investment in blaster, but you find yourself with a blaster anyway. Your target is in short range (difficulty 10) and you have 2D Dex attribute. In order to roll a 10 on 2D you need to roll 5,5; 6,6; 5,6; or 4;6. (or x,6w + enough on the wild die to score a hit).

Instead of rolling one shot, your ideal number of shots is *2*, because only 1/36 times will you hit on a roll that doesn't involve at least one 6, so you might as well make both dice be wild and take two chances at it.

P(hit|two dice) ~6/36 = 16.66%
P(hit|one die) ~= 1/6 * 3/6 = 3/36 = 1/12 = 8.33%, but there are two of them!
P(at least one hit|two shots) = 1 - (11/12)^2 ~= 16%

So you miss totally 2/3 of a percent more often, but gain the chance to hit twice.

Similarly, suppose you're at medium range (difficulty 15) with 3D blaster. You're once again fishing for at least a 6, and firing twice at 2D to double your wild dice is looking pretty competitive.

Finally, all the wild die really does is increase variance, which always hurts the players more. The wild die was a terrible idea, and it's really easy to see why. (If you removed the '1 kills a die' part it might be okay, but it still hurts the players more than it helps them, because badguys get it too).

-----------------------------------

Building a better combat character: paths to ultimate power.

Blaster combat kind of sucks
Combat frequently is a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
-Dodging is pretty ubiquitous, which means its hard to actually hit because the dodge roll gets *added* to the base difficulty, and dodge code is frequently at least equal to blaster code, so the firer is generally at a disadvantage.
-Characters have problems hitting just the base difficulty for anything farther than short range unless they invest significant starting dice into blaster. A 4D blaster code expects to miss the difficulty 15 for medium range more often than it hits it. The highest possible starting blaster code, 6D (with only a few templates that permit it), only hits long range targets a little more than half the time. And that's *before* dodges. (And if you're following the recommended skill point awards, even if your players pump everything they get into blaster, these problems persist for quite awhile).
-Stormtroopers have a 3D blaster code, meaning they'll rarely hit anything that *isn't dodging* at medium range, and only score a hit around half the time against a *stationary* target at short range.
-Adding a dodge to your actions reduces all your actions remaining in the round by 1D, so if you do feel compelled to dodge, your chances of hitting are even worse.

Of course, scoring a hit is just the first part. Now you have to roll damage vs. soak. The best man-portable weapons you're likely to ever get your hands on have a 5D damage code, which gets rolled against strength+armor. Now, armor is generally a pip or two, maybe a full die. (Stormtroopers get a full die, but only have 2D attributes). Still, 5D vs. 3D is pretty close to a best-case scenario, and that usually only wounds (which contributes to the hitting problem by giving the wounded -1D to all rolls), and will fail to wound more often than it incapacitates. (Players may have strength as low as 2D before armor - and as much as 5D as a wookie. A wookie with armor can reasonably charge headlong into a pack of stormtroopers assuming he's willing to take the -1D to all codes to dodge).

So, blaster fire is slow and ineffective much of the time. Thus we look at our alternatives.

Melee combat is fucking awesome
First, our base to-hit target is based on the weapon we're using. That's pretty awesome, because we have control of that.

Difficulties range from 5 (club) to 20 (lightsaber - note, uses lightsaber skill), and most of them use melee. Generally, it is optimal to be using a low-damage simple weapon because they tend towards difficulty 5 and tend to have a damage code of str+1D. For difficulty 10 you get str+1D+1, and for 15 you can get as high as 2D. (But of course that's *3x* as hard to hit). A regular knife is difficulty 5, str+1D, and easy to conceal - highly recommended.

The second point of awesome is that you *cannot dodge* melee or brawling attacks, you have to use the appropriate parry skill. You can brawling parry only fist attacks, and melee parry both fists and melee weapons, so carrying a weapon makes you much more versatile in this regard.

But this also means that most characters will be worse defensively against you than they are against someone with a blaster, because they'll tend to have invested in dodge but not melee parry. (Stormtroopers have an effective Dodge of 3D, and an effective melee parry of 1D, because their armor reduces dex skills by 1D). This means most enemies *simply cannot melee parry at all* if they have declared another action that turn.

So you're typically rolling for 5s. Plan on dodging some blaster fire (-1D), and then announce a number of melee attacks such that you get 2D on each one (or even 1D+2 works). You basically get extra actions for having chosen to melee.

Of course, you'll need to close distance somehow. Frequently this can involve setting ambushes, but running (-1D, double movement) is a reasonable option to rapidly close distance. And most enemies are going to have to close themselves to have a chance of hitting you.

You may not get to 5D damage with your melee weapon, but you should be rolling more damage dice than your opponent is soaking with, and scoring more hits than a blaster. Since a wounded character who is wounded becomes incapacitated, more attacks works more or less like having more damage dice.

What you need: Decent Dex, Good Str, Decent Perception (hide/sneak for ambushes), invest in melee, dodge, hide/sneak, and melee parry at character creation.

Best Templates:
-Bounty Hunter (4D Dex, 3D+2 Str, 3D Per)
-Merc (3D+2 Dex, 3D+2 Str)
-Outlaw (4D Dex, 3D+1 Str)
-Wookie (2D+2 Dex, 5D Str) -- Basically going for fewer bigger hits, better long term because you can increase melee but not str
-Tough Native (3D+2 Dex, 4D Str, 3D+2 Per) --best all around

Alternate: Lightsaber
Lightsaber combat is totally different from other melee combat. Not only does it require a different skill altogether, but you're rolling for 20s instead of 5s, so it's not about getting an attack advantage. Rather, it's about getting a massive damage code. Lightsabers do 5D + control, so you can *start* a character with an 8D lightsaber damage code. (Increasing from there is *expensive*, you're basically scrolling enemy health off the RNG).

Lightsabers also cannot be parried by anything but another lightsaber, so against most enemies they can't even use melee parry if they have the necessary skill investment.

What you need: a lightsaber, the best dex you can get your hands on (rolling 20s is hard), control. Invest in Lightsaber, Control, Dodge, Melee Parry or Sense to start, and mostly Lightsaber with skill points.

Sadly, there are only 2 templates that come with a lightsaber: the minor jedi and the failed jedi. And since you will never *find* a lightsaber, barring grace of GM, those are your options.

The failed jedi gets both Sense and Control to start, but that means -2D from attributes, and more worryingly, his Dex suffers as a result. Your best starting Lightsaber skill is 4D+2, which is weaksauce.

The minor jedi is only marginally better, although its enough to make it not totally stupid at the start. And of course its 4 skill points closer to getting where you need to be, which is a lightsaber skill of at least 7D. That's 33 skill points from 5D, or all your skill points from 3-6+ adventures using the recommended guidelines. But as long as we're waiting that long, the little extra waiting time for a failed jedi really isn't so bad. (The minor jedi is also marginally better at knowledges and mechanical, fwiw).

It's really too bad the quixotic jedi doesn't start with a Lightsaber (or Control), because they have 3D+2 Dex...

Ultimately, this means that lightsaber melee domination doesn't work for a long time, and so even though its eventually a path to ultimate melee power, its not playable out of the box.
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Post by Red_Rob »

squirrelloid wrote:Blaster combat kind of sucks
Combat frequently is a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
-Dodging is pretty ubiquitous, which means its hard to actually hit because the dodge roll gets *added* to the base difficulty, and dodge code is frequently at least equal to blaster code, so the firer is generally at a disadvantage.
As I recall, didn't Dodge replace the range target number unless you were doing a "Full Dodge" (meaning you took no other actions)? Or was that something added to the 2nd edition? It meant that a character with decent combat stats (which was nearly everyone because Star Wars, clue's in the name!) could rely on getting a hit most rounds at close range, which was where most fights tended to happen.
squirrelloid wrote:Ultimately, this means that lightsaber melee domination doesn't work for a long time, and so even though its eventually a path to ultimate melee power, its not playable out of the box.
Being "experienced roleplayers" our group decided the templates were newby hand-holding and we dived straight into letting players put together their own templates. Turns out Jedi are pretty good when you can dump Technical and Mechanical and pump everything into Dex and Force stats...

The thing we found with Force powers was that mainly they were fiddly as hell, although apparently 2nd edition made this a lot worse. Maintaining a Force power counted as an action and some powers required more than one roll to activate, so half the time Force users were maintaining and dropping powers every turn, rolling and re-rolling powers checks, and it was just a pain to keep track of. Although because Force Powers were such a big investment it did stop Jedi from being good at anything else, which helped mitigate the "everyone wants to play a Jedi" factor.

The thing I remember most fondly about D6 Star Wars was the variety of character types. Out of the box support for Droids, aliens and Jedi meant you were never stuck for an interesting character idea.
Simplified Tome Armor.

Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.

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Post by Ted the Flayer »

Rules for druids is good. I didn't like the rules for droids in the d20 version.
Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.
Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.
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Post by squirrelloid »

Red_Rob wrote:
squirrelloid wrote:Blaster combat kind of sucks
Combat frequently is a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
-Dodging is pretty ubiquitous, which means its hard to actually hit because the dodge roll gets *added* to the base difficulty, and dodge code is frequently at least equal to blaster code, so the firer is generally at a disadvantage.
As I recall, didn't Dodge replace the range target number unless you were doing a "Full Dodge" (meaning you took no other actions)? Or was that something added to the 2nd edition? It meant that a character with decent combat stats (which was nearly everyone because Star Wars, clue's in the name!) could rely on getting a hit most rounds at close range, which was where most fights tended to happen.
Nope, dodge *adds* to the ranged difficulty, and you only have to dodge once and it applies to all incoming fire. (As I've played in 2nd edition games, and no one told me I was wrong, I'm going to assume that remained true unless someone cares to cite otherwise).

I should probably note that melee parry and brawling parry have to be declared and rolled anew for each incoming attack.
squirrelloid wrote:Ultimately, this means that lightsaber melee domination doesn't work for a long time, and so even though its eventually a path to ultimate melee power, its not playable out of the box.
Being "experienced roleplayers" our group decided the templates were newby hand-holding and we dived straight into letting players put together their own templates. Turns out Jedi are pretty good when you can dump Technical and Mechanical and pump everything into Dex and Force stats...
They pretty much do dump Tech and Mech already. It's perception and knowledge that you'd actually end up dumping.

But I disagree, i think the templates were specifically designed for force users to keep them from being combat monsters at the start. I think it's unfortunate that you can't get enough Lightsaber to *really use one* out of the box, but at the same time, they're 'failed' and 'minor' jedi for a reason. The empire didn't hunt them down because they were ineffectual.

And while you can put together your own templates, there's absolutely no basis for starting with a lightsaber if you do so. Lightsabers are stupid rare explicitly, and jedi were vigorously hunted down by the empire. If your GM is going to let you have a lightsaber when you're not using one of the two templates that starts with one, he'll probably let you find one during play *and* find a mentor. So rather than burn yourself in character creation blowing attribute dice on force skills, just tell your GM you're interested in learning the force, and take a real template which doesn't do that. (Yeah, you won't get to use starting skill dice on force skills or arguably lightsaber, but have 18D in attribute dice is probably worth it).
The thing we found with Force powers was that mainly they were fiddly as hell, although apparently 2nd edition made this a lot worse. Maintaining a Force power counted as an action and some powers required more than one roll to activate, so half the time Force users were maintaining and dropping powers every turn, rolling and re-rolling powers checks, and it was just a pain to keep track of. Although because Force Powers were such a big investment it did stop Jedi from being good at anything else, which helped mitigate the "everyone wants to play a Jedi" factor.
I don't think multiple rolls is actually multiple actions, so that was only an annoyance of table time use. I'd have to actually read the powers rules more closely, but i know some of them can be maintained for a scene so long as you don't take an injury, so it's not an action to maintain those at least.
The thing I remember most fondly about D6 Star Wars was the variety of character types. Out of the box support for Droids, aliens and Jedi meant you were never stuck for an interesting character idea.
I never allowed force users and it was still hard to run out of ideas for characters. Heck, I think I only ever used a force using NPC once across all the campaigns I ever ran.

Now, melee monster with a knife? I totally played that in one campaign.
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Post by Nath »

squirrelloid wrote:-Dodging is pretty ubiquitous, which means its hard to actually hit because the dodge roll gets *added* to the base difficulty, and dodge code is frequently at least equal to blaster code, so the firer is generally at a disadvantage.
Red_Rob wrote:As I recall, didn't Dodge replace the range target number unless you were doing a "Full Dodge" (meaning you took no other actions)? Or was that something added to the 2nd edition? It meant that a character with decent combat stats (which was nearly everyone because Star Wars, clue's in the name!) could rely on getting a hit most rounds at close range, which was where most fights tended to happen.
squirrelloid wrote:Nope, dodge *adds* to the ranged difficulty, and you only have to dodge once and it applies to all incoming fire. (As I've played in 2nd edition games, and no one told me I was wrong, I'm going to assume that remained true unless someone cares to cite otherwise).

I should probably note that melee parry and brawling parry have to be declared and rolled anew for each incoming attack.
Can't say about first edition, but definitively not in second edition.
Star Wars, page 61
Defensive Skills
Characters have several skills that they can use to get out of the way of different kinds of attacks. These skills can increase the difficulty to hit the character.
Dodge is used against any ranged attack, whether it is a blaster bolt, a bullet, a missile weapon, or other attack made from a distance.
Melee Parry is used when the character is attacked in hand-to-hand combat and the character has a melee weapon or makeshift weapon in his hands (makeshift weapons include bottles, chairs, and anything else that is grabbed out of destination).
If the character is being attacked by someone who is using a weapon or is attacking with very sharp natural tools, the character rolls their skill naturally.
If the character is defending against someone who is attacking unarmed and without sharp weapons, the character gets a +5 bonus modifier to his parry roll.
Brawling parry is used when the character is attacked in hand-to-hand combat and is unarmed. A character uses this skill normally hen they are attacked by someone who is also unarmed and doesn't have sharp natural tools, like claws; they simply roll their skill.
If the character is defending against someone who is attacking with a weapon or sharp natural tools, the attacker gets a +10 bonus modifier to their attack roll.

Full or Normal Use
When a character declares a defensive skill use they have two things they can do: a full use (full dodge, full melee parry, and so forth) or a normal use (dodge, melee parry and so fort).

Full Use
When a character does a full defensive skill use (full dodge, full melee parry, full brawling parry, etc.) they roll their character's defensive skill and add it to the difficulty to hit the character.
- When a character does a full defense skill use, they may only do that and make one normal speed movement that round (see "Movement"); the character may not do any other action, such as attack, or use another skill.
- Note that characters can't do multiple full defensive skill uses in a round - for example, a character couldn't do a full dodge and full brawling parry in the same round. In fact, the ony thing a character can do in the same round as a full defensive action is one move.

Normal Use
When a character makes a normal defensive skill use, the character simply rolls their skill dice. The player can then choose to use either the skill roll as the value for all attacks in that round or use each individual attacker's difficulty in that round. This decision applies to all attacks made in that round, and must be at the time the roll is made.
Last edited by Nath on Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nath
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Post by Nath »

Surgo wrote:If I recall correctly, the Lightsaber thing got even more crazy in the following editions. You had a specific skill you could level up called Lightsaber Combat, and you'd use it for parrying shit and would also add it to your 5D damage code.
In second edition at least, the Lightsaber Combat power requires Moderate Control roll and an Easy Sense roll to activate. Depending on your GM interpretation of Difficulty Number and kindness, achieving this routinely requires something between 3D+2 and 4D+1 in Control and 2D and 3D+1 in Sense. Which is outside of a starting character range of abilities.

Being a Jedi is a huge investment, that pays only after some time and XP. Once the payment plan starts, however...
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Post by squirrelloid »

So, confession, in skimming i missed a key piece of dodge (sorry, been awhile). Dodge only applies to teh segment in which you dodge. You have to separately dodge in each segment you're attacked. (Generally this will be at most twice, since most mooks will fire, fire and move, or move and fire. Which means they're all firing in segment 1 or segment 2. You can't delay your actions, each segment has your next action until you run out).
Star Wars first edition p48
-Any time a character is fired upon, he may dodge.
-If he declared the use of other skills in the round, the use of dodge decreases all skill codes by 1D further.
-When a character dodges, make a dodge skill roll. The number rolled is added to the firer's difficulty number.
-If a character is fired upon more than once in the same action segment, his dodge roll is added to all firer's difficulty numbers. However, dodging in one segment has no effect on fire in the next segment; if a character is fired upon in more than one segment, he can dodge each time, but each is a separate skill use, and further decreases skill codes.
Strangely enough, both emphases are in the original.

Melee and Brawling Parry do actually use the same mechanics, but because it works per segment, i'm factually wrong (melee and brawling parry apply to all applicable attacks in the same segment) but functionally right (they'd have to parry each of one character's attacks separately, since each attack will happen in a new segment). Considering I've never seen a character take multiple melee or brawling attacks in the same round (and it has been awhile), my mistake isn't terribly surprising.
Last edited by squirrelloid on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by talozin »

Nath wrote: Can't say about first edition, but definitively not in second edition.
It was changed between editions. I think I still have the little "Rules Update" insert that came with some of the early SWRPG adventure modules, which detailed this and some other changes.
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Post by Red_Rob »

squirrelloid wrote:I never allowed force users and it was still hard to run out of ideas for characters. Heck, I think I only ever used a force using NPC once across all the campaigns I ever ran.
Ah, to us The Force was kind of the essence of Star Wars so we always had at least one Force user in the party. I mean, the original only trilogy was all about Luke's training to become a Jedi, that was the focus of the story. So having no Force users seemed like it missed a big part of the world for us.

However, the Second Edition rules for Force powers made them a pain. Some of the powers were cool and all, but the way they were handled made them annoying to use. Each power had a listed skill that you had to roll when you activated it - Control, Sense or Alter. Except lots of the powers had more than one skill listed, which meant you had to roll each skill seperately when you activated it to get it to turn on, sometimes against different difficulties. Some powers (like Affect Mind) even had all three! Now, maintaining a Force power generally counted as an action, which meant it gave you -1D to all your other rolls that turn, so you'd often want to drop a power when you no longer needed it and then reactivate it a few rounds later (more rolls!). All together it added up to the Jedi making multiple rolls against varying difficulties every round before they even decided what their action was going to be, which pissed off the players who just wanted to shoot a stormtrooper and enjoyed the fast paced nature of the D6 system.
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Post by squirrelloid »

Red_Rob wrote:
squirrelloid wrote:I never allowed force users and it was still hard to run out of ideas for characters. Heck, I think I only ever used a force using NPC once across all the campaigns I ever ran.
Ah, to us The Force was kind of the essence of Star Wars so we always had at least one Force user in the party. I mean, the original only trilogy was all about Luke's training to become a Jedi, that was the focus of the story. So having no Force users seemed like it missed a big part of the world for us.
Except Episode 4 Luke's use of the force is essentially limited to spending a force point to fire proton torpedoes down the exhaust port.

And Luke's roles in episode V and VI is mostly whining. (I mean, Hoth is cool, but Luke isn't essential to that).

None of the space combat really involves force use outside force points. (Certainly not in any way d6 SW can replicate - ie, whatever you think Vader is doing in Ep IV while targetting). Very little ground combat involves actual force powers outside of the Luke/Vader or Obi-wan/Vader duels. (Lightsaber doesn't really necessarily imply force powers. The only example of force powers in combat outside a lightsaber duel is Episode VI on jabba's barge with blaster parrying).

So mostly in the movies force powers are used by (1) GMPC Ben Kenobi being mysterious and expositiony. (2) Luke and Vader in duels which only make sense in the context of a jedi/dark jedi contest, which you're not going to have anyway, because Vader basically crushes the PCs in any actual campaign. (That and no PC is his offspring, so the dramatic impetus for the conflict is lost).

Basically, the force still rears its head as force points. You don't actually need a jedi-wannabe to achieve that, and allowing force-using PCs devalues the setting atmosphere by making them ridiculously ubiquitous.
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