Pathfinder

[Juton]

Could you elaborate on why they are the best melee class? I wanna sound smart while pissing off my shitty former DM.

*More primary attacks than you. A LOT more.
*More reach than you. Or Pounce.
*More AC than you.
*Strength starts at 16, increases by +11 over 20 levels, by an additional +8 from Evolutions, and a further +16 from size, and I can wear a belt on top of that.
*I have actual skills and spells.

What Rasmus said.

Genuinely curious: how is that a better melee machine than a Cleric or Druid?

I will admit at the beginning that my knowledge of Pathfinder doesn't extend into the campaign specific splats. What I do know about PF is that there are less ways to quicken/persists buffs and the buffs aren't as jaw dropping as before. So you get into the position of an optimized PF Fighter being able to post similar melee numbers to a PF Cleric. A PF Cleric still has a wide array of spells which they can swap out every day, so it's still a better class, it's just not better (or better by a huge margin) in melee than a PF Fighter.

The Druid is a different case. On creatures with bad AC (level appropriate or lower) they (buffed and wild shaped) with their animal companion can out DPS everything else IIRC. When you're fighting enemies with actually good AC the Synthesist pulls ahead by a wide margin because of their fucktardedly high strength giving them large to-hit and damage. Add into that the Synthesist can keep those numbers up all day without buffing, and can use their Eidolon as extra HP. The only Fighters who aren't crying themselves to sleep are the ones that haven't looked at the numbers, because the Synthesist can literally do everything they do better and longer.

[Dean]

What level are you talking about

Well lets map it out. The following are the most likely stats of a character who cared about punching. I'll note how many Evolution points he has left for general tricks after he's done stat jacking. None of the following include items or enhancement bonuses, this is your skeleton.

4th Level
Str 17
Dex 17
Con 14
Nat Armor:+2
Nothing too impressive here, I mean it's an improvement on the 8,10,12 that would be here plus you have Evasion and Darkvision. But all you really have is the stats of someone who lied about their rolled stats. 4/7 Points spent on stats.

8th Level
Str 25
Dex 15
Con 20
Nat Armor:+8
This is pretty sweet. You are now large for what that's worth. These stats are definitely now above what your expected to have at your level. 4/11 points spent on stats and size.

12th Level
Str 28
Dex 17
Con 20
Nat Armor:+12
Good stuff, but good shapechanging spells are starting to show up so your not that impressive to the Druid or Wizard now. Your AC should be pretty absurd though. 8/16 points spent on stats and size.

16th Level
Str 43
Dex 20
Con 26
Nat Armor: +17
These bonuses now include the +5 Inherent Bonus a Summoner can give every stat at 13th level. You are now Huge which is cool and you also have Improved Evasion which is pretty sweet. 10/21 points on stats and size.

[sabs]

Where do you get this Inherent +5 bonus?

[Dr_Noface]

I'm guessing Planar Binding.

[sabs]

Yeah, getting 5 wishes "cast in quick succession" out of 1 spell per day of planar binding seems dubious.

[Juton]

I've never used planar binding in a real game, isn't it possible to cast it more than once per day? If you could get 5 active castings at once you'd only need 1 wish per summon. I don't think there'd be many real MCs that would let you do that, but it could work by RAW.

[Whatever]

It's not hard to turn one Wish into an unbounded number of Planar Bindings. But even if all you do is Wish up scrolls of Planar Binding one at a time, you can still easily achieve five wishes "in quick succession".

[Roog]

Pathfinder wish lost the "Create a non-magical item" and the "Create a magic item" functions.

[Dean]

A single casting of Simulacrum can let you make a replicant Solar (or Glabrezu or Efreet or whatever) which has "Wish". That wish can be used to replicate Simulacrum. Rinse and repeat. Simulacrum is normally a 7th level spell but Summoners get it as a 5th.

So at 13th level your Summoner is also legitimately Angel Summoner, and can legitimately ask if your problem is solvable by an unlimited army of angels. I'm not saying that you'll do that. But you ARE NOT leaving the house without your +5 Bonuses from your unlimited army of wish-granters. I would also consider it reasonable to let you leave the house with your pet Solar, but I won't be using one in my same game test.

[icyshadowlord]

So that IS a legit thing that can be done? Some guy at the Paizil forum threw a rage fit yelling "YOU CAN'T DO THAT" every time some other guy brought it up.

[Dean]

Oh yeah it's black and white. Here's the text you need.

"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command."

It is absolutely inarguable. There is no interpretation involved whatsoever. I've never used planar binding in a game because it relies so much on MTP. But simulacrum grants you "absolute command" over any creature less than twice your level. By 13th level there is almost no creature you cannot make complete with it's spell like abilities and all. It's the single most powerful spell in Pathfinder I know of, and Summoners help you get it on the cheap.

[Username17]

I've used Planar Binding to give out stat enhancing wishes in real games. I have never seen Simulacrum used in any game from 3rd edition on. It's so obviously broken that no MC has ever allowed it. I don't expect any MC to ever allow it in the future.

It is absolutely inarguable.

No. It's totally arguable. What's the "appropriate" amount of Wishes for a Solar of half normal hit dice to be able to grant? There's no Solar advancement that I know of, it's unknowable how many Wishes a half level Solar could grant. The number would very likely be zero. Unless and until you can show the MC an official Pathfinder monster progression that shows Glabrezus being able to grant wishes while under leveled, you are never going to get an MC to sign off on this. The moment they stop to consider what "appropriate special abilities for a creature of that level or HD" are in this instance, they are going to deny you. Rule -2.

But regardless, the inarguability of Simulacrum is not and never has been the point. The fact that it's obviously broken is why you won't ever be allowed to use it. It's like Artificer Skill Dancing - it's RAW legal, but no DM is ever going to let it fly. Simulacrum actually probably can't grant wishes at any sub-epic level, but it still gives you unlimited numbers of permanent pawns who are each up to your own level, and no MC is ever going to let you use it on those grounds.

---

Which brings me to another question: how good is the Conjurer if you don't use a bunch of dubious interpretations that are individually and collectively not going to fly at an actual table? I understand that Pathfinder DMs tend to be more lenient with Pathfinder specific classes than they are with legacy classes, but it seems instructive that I have never seen anyone promote the Summoner without immediately insisting that they can pull dubious and laughable crap that has been routinely banned by the various DMs that Wizards have to go in front of for the last 13 years. It's really reminding me of the Factotum fans.

-Username17

[Koumei]

So apparently the Paizo team have all agreed and stated that the SynthSummoner is broken and they're going to fix it at a later date.

Needless to say, this doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it is ACTUALLY broken. But it's funny to see them admit this as though it hadn't undergone any real playtesting. Oh wait...

[ishy]

Well the +5 inherent bonus to all stats is either going to be party wide or banned (unless you have a dickish group imho). So I'd say in this case that doesn't matter much. And the examples deanruel87 gave are still valid.

And at real tables I talk to the group before you use abilities like that. Am playing a wizard right now, and I asked if it was okay if I used planar binding to give everyone +5 to all stats. Mentioning that the rules allow it, but that I can understand if the DM doesn't want that.

Honestly I believe the summoner is badly written (meaning confusing, terrible editing). And works fine if you play below wizard level.
If you play at wizard level it will depend on what your DM allows.
- Edit: The difference with the factotum is that a summoner can function (perhaps not at wizard level) if you don't allow the tricks. While a factotum is at monk level if you don't allow the tricks.

[RobbyPants]

Are there rules explicitly allowing or forbidding using Simulacrum to make an advanced creature? If it's allowed, and you had sufficient HD, couldn't you create an advanced version of the creature with double HD, so the simulacrum has the normal amount of HD?

The text says "Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature.", but I don't know if "any" means "anything within the HD limits", or "anything published without templates or advancement within the HD limits".

[Archmage Joda]

Which brings me to another question: how good is the Conjurer if you don't use a bunch of dubious interpretations that are individually and collectively not going to fly at an actual table?

-Username17

Personally, I would also very much like this question to be answered.

[Wrathzog]

So apparently the Paizo team have all agreed and stated that the SynthSummoner is broken and they're going to fix it at a later date.

I was trying to look this up but after reading through a few threads on the PF forums, I started to get depressed and angry, so do you have a link to where you found this information?

[hogarth]

I was trying to look this up but after reading through a few threads on the PF forums, I started to get depressed and angry, so do you have a link to where you found this information?

For what it's worth, the Synthesist has been banned from Pathfinder Society play, and it got errata'ed very soon after it initially came out -- those are hardly signs of confidence. I haven't heard anything about additional changes, though.

[squirrelloid]

Honestly, if I run another 3.x campaign (and I'd like to), I'm just going to make inherent bonuses to stats part of normal character progression. That way it's not a lump +5 all at once as soon as they can cast planar binding, and everyone gets it with no muss no fuss regardless of class. I'm thinking +1 inherent to all every 3 character levels or thereabouts at the moment.

[Dean]

I cannot express how baffling and absurd I find Franks Simulacrum declarations.
So let me make sure I have this clear.

Using planar binding to give +5 to stats. Totally normal and reasonable. That's "Wizard Level".

Using Simulacrum, a higher level spell with clearer effects and less DM interaction for +5 to stats is something that "No DM will allow". It would be poor form of me somehow to use the spell for exactly what it can obviously do because if Frank were my DM he would not allow it.

I don't really know what to say to that. Simulacrum works, it definitely definitely does. In fact they made it better in pathfinder. Here's the text if any want to check. But whether or not it works is irrelevant because apparently using lower level spells to accomplish similar goals is Wizard Level but high level spells for the same goals is being hand waived away as offensive and impossible.

My build is basically an ubercharger. Is that ok? Are Summoners allowed to use Lances or are lances obviously broken? Seriously what the fuck. Simulacrum works, I am using it for it to lesser than maximum effect, the Summoner ALSO has the Planar Binding line but I consider those poor form to use because they are more poorly written but virtually identical in effect.

So I'm expected to reach a balance level that people generally find insane, but not to pass it or use different methods to get there because that would be insane BUT using the same tricks as normal is fine. Fuck off. Frank when you wrote "Just assume all adventurers abuse Efreets and Staves of 50 wish loopholes to get +5's to all their stats by this level" it OFFENDED people. I don't understand how you can turn around and pop a monocle at me using Pathfinder's slightly different rules for getting unlimited wishes. It is no less absurd or unknown than yours was for 3.5 it's just what happens to work in Pathfinder so fucking deal with it. If my character tries to live in a box and send commands to an army of angels to do his adventuring I give you permission to raise hell. But at 13th level my Summoner factually got access to unlimited wishes so he's got good stats. It's a different trick than yours to do the same thing at the same level but that's because it's a different system so it needs different methods. It doesn't make it bad, it's just different. So deal with it.

[zugschef]

dude, the point is that simulacrum is fuckin broken because it has the potential of creating an army of whatever creatures with as much hd as your cl under your absolute control. that's why every sane gm outright bans this fucker.

[Kaelik]

Hey, you are an idiot. Try reading everything, he fucking explained why it doesn't work.

Simulacrum: "but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"

Now, when you have a 5HD Genie, what special abilities are appropriate for that 5HD genie?

This:
Constant—detect magic
At Will—plane shift (willing targets to elemental planes, Astral Plane, or Material Plane only), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray
3/day—invisibility, quickened scorching ray, wall of fire (DC 16)
1/day—grant up to 3 wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18)

Or This:
Constant—detect magic
At Will—plane shift (willing targets to elemental planes, Astral Plane, or Material Plane only), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray
3/day—invisibility, quickened scorching ray, wall of fire (DC 16)
1/day—grant up to 3 wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18)

And how can you tell the DM that it is definitely only the top one and not the bottom one.

[Dean]

dude, the point is that simulacrum is fuckin broken because it has the potential of creating an army of whatever creatures

And if I am chain-binding Efreet to give me an unlimited supply of wishes through Planar Binding then I have an unlimited supply of fucking funds and wishes which I can use to create unlimited armies because of Planar Binding anyways.

I am fine with a world where we do not all summon unlimited armies of Vrocks to do our bidding for us. And I have said I have no intention to do so. What I'm not fine with is that the abilities required to demonstrate one is Wizard level, like being able to gain unlimited wishes, is simultaneously the bar for entry and the grounds for disqualification.

[Dean]

Simulacrum: "but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"

Holy fuck what the fuck are you talking about. That is such a strained and boggling reading of those words. So you are claiming that because it used the word "appropriate" instead of "resultant" it means that you are supposed to have the DM listen to his heartsong and craft a creature which he feels has a writeup appropriate to the HD of the thing your making. And not to in fact just recalculate level number and feats. If you make a 10th level Paladin there are special abilities the Simulacrum will not get, because they are level derived special abilities. Your reading is insane.

And even under that bizarre premise what makes a 10HD Efreet with 3 wishes reasonable and correct but an 11 HD Solar with 1 wish ban-worthy.

[Kaelik]

If you think it is straining the interpretation of Simulacrum apply the actual wording of simulacrum the spell you are an idiot. It specifically says that it only has the appropriate special abilities of a creature of it's HD. It has a reduced HD. Obviously that means it must have reduced special abilities, because the special abilities it had were appropriate for 10HD. Something that is appropriate for 10HD is obviously not appropriate for 5HD.

And of course, 1) Genies have a limited ability to grant wishes, 2) A Solar has a bunch of special abilities that Genies don't, so obviously saying that it must be appropriate for a Solar to keep its wish is the same as saying that you should have a 20 for every stat because you could have a 20 in any one stat, and it could be each stat, so you should have a 20 in all.