Acceptable Arbitrarium

[Prak]

It seems to me that when creating rules, there is an acceptable level of arbitrarium. Namely, stuff that is either never going to come up, or that will come up so rarely that when rules are needed, they can be made on the spot. Other rules are such that so long as they are only in the hands of players, they really don't need full fleshing out.

For example, how often is it going to come up what the defensive capabilities of the tardis are?
Another example, Death's Sword as a major weapon, if it's the players that are using it, the fact that it destroys the target's soul is something that can be left entirely to flavour and a death effect. If an NPC uses it, then yes, stats are needed beyond the death effect, and it may lead to other adventures.

what do you guys, and gals, think?

[RandomCasualty]

1201399657[/unixtime]]Other rules are such that so long as they are only in the hands of players, they really don't need full fleshing out.

I've always tended to feel the opposite, that if it's in the players hands it absolutely must be fleshed out. A player should always know what his abilities do. It's kind of unfair to hand out an ability that works based on DM fiat, unless you've handed it to the PC for free.

Monster abilities can be a bit more arbitrary, not in the sense of the what, but in the sense of the how. For instance, it's probably not that important to figure out how the lich learned the ritual of ultimate ascension, or have rules for that crap. All we care about is how the PCs can interrupt it and what happens if the lich succeeds. As far as the rest, let the DM handwave it.

Similarly, we don't need rules for how much a trap costs and all that other bullshit. We really don't. The dungeon is already there, and it has X traps in it. We need to know how dangerous they are and if they'll likely kill the PCs, but how much they cost doesn't even matter. I don't really care how it got there. Obviously someone built it but whatever, I haven't allocated my BBEG a fixed set of funds to spend on traps... so don't waste my time that stuff might as well be arbitrary.

So yeah, I say keep strict rules for what PCs can do and handwave some of the monster backstory stuff.

[Prak]

What I mean is that when the PCs are weilding Death's Sword, I don't think one has to flesh out what happens past a death effect. It should be:
"You hit the orc with Death's Sword, and it slashes at the threads that bind his soul to his mortal coil, he strains to keep even just one such thread, but ultimately fails, and he dies."
not:
"You hit the orc, with Death's Sword, and it slashes at the threads that bind his mortal coil, he strains to keep even one such thread, but ultimately fails. He dies, his soul is destroyed, and he can neither go off to the Happy Hunting Grounds, nor be raised, ressurected, or otherwise returned to life save by a Wish spell cast by a 30th level wizard, or by the whim of Death himself."
The last four lines only matter when the sword is used on a PC, because no one's going to try to raise a random orc.

[Voss]

I don't know about that. If I were a PC, I'd definitely want to know that I can kill the major NPCs and no one is going to be doing stupid shit and bringing them back to life so they can bother me later.

I also want to know if, per chance, my ally thats holding the sword get his bloody ass dominated and starts swinging it at me.

What are you losing by taking the extra 5 minutes to define all the properties rather than leaving it in the land of 'Oh shit, what happens now?'

[Prak]

Neh, good points. what about the other examples?

[RandomCasualty]

1201420664[/unixtime]]Neh, good points. what about the other examples?

Only other example is about the defensive capabilities of the Tardis, and I absolutely want to know that. As soon as you like lock the door and hope it keeps someone out, you care about its defensive capabilities. Or like considering that it's just left parked outside for long periods of time, it's nice to know if people can just break in and steal it.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

In PC hands, you have to know the basics of what it does (+X to hit, +Y to damage, any other combat-related effects). The first campaign I played in (that lasted a number of years), we had to figure these things out for ourselves until an Identify spell was cast (which needed a carp and a 100gp pearl to determine just one property). So we would play around with it and figure out that it did +X to hit +Y to damage, and knew that it had other shit on it. If we guessed it right, the DM would give it to us. It was fun to find a pair of "magical boots" and try to figure out whether you could run faster or jump higher or fly or walk on spiderwebs or shit. It was lousy to find the Flametongue sword that had +4 vs. undead, +1 versus monsters, +2 versus areal creatures, and +3 against "creatures that were easily caught on fire".

It is fun to play in a world where you don't know everything and weird monsters with crazy abilities pop up. The "make a save", and then "you levitate into the air, being dragged by the necromancer" is fun when you find the scroll/spell that the necro was using later, but lousy when it seems that that was simply arbitrary.

It is fun to play in a world where the monster all of a sudden shoots acid at you.

It is NOT FUN to play in a world where you keep casting spells and don't know that the monster is immune to mid-affecting spells, or you are not sure how the monster saw you (DMs don't describe it 'looking right at you' typically). Yes, it is a fine line.

That being said, there should be some way for the PCs to find out EXACTLY what their things do, and it is fun to figure it out by trial and error until it is figured out. Basically, it boils down to how much you trust the DM, and you don't trust him when your life is on the line.

[tzor]

1201399657[/unixtime]]For example, how often is it going to come up what the defensive capabilities of the tardis are?

That's not a good example. Throughout the history of Dr. Who the Tardis has almost been star treked in order to allow the next plot to continue. There have been a number of defenses brought up in a few series and then completely forgotten in another series. You have had everything from the barbarians are banging on the doors and I don't care, to the barbarians are banging on the doors and the doctor is in a state of sheer panic.

Rules are needed for the most part when they are used. Take trap costs. You don't need it when going into a dungeon, you need it when making a dungeon and D&D used to be as much about making the dungeon as it was about going through one; especially once you got to "name" level. One can argue you need it to design the dungeon in the first place but you really don't; you just need ballpark reasonable rules that all make sense since no PC is ever going to see the blueprints and the accounting books for the dungeon.