Pathfinder Is Still Bad

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:23 pm

virgil wrote:Ostentatious Display offends me on so many levels.

Wow. I think I have a new least favourite feat.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:42 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:I'm not sure there's a really good system for stealth that can be made for an RPG. There are a lot of edge cases. But Pathfinder's unified Stealth system is a catastrofuck. The interactions it has with special senses (like a Grimlock's tremor sense) and special concealment (like invisibility) is simply gobbledygook.

Oh, but it is so much worse than that. If your own party is watching you, you can't hide. Having the party ranger (or whatever wilderness expert) help conceal people [aid another] in camouflaged hunting hides prevents them from working. It falls apart before it gets to weird interaction- it dies a horrible death just for being in a cooperative game.

As written, when you move from cover to cover you have to make stealth checks against your own party, and if any of them spot you, you can't use stealth any more. I don't even know if you can voluntarily fail perception checks. Even if you can it provides an excellent opportunity for the DM to use his own stealth guys.

Basically a party with a sneaky type needs to cover their eyes and wear earplugs on a regular basis, and getting the scent ability is an active drawback for the party scout.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:12 pm

hogarth wrote:
virgil wrote:Ostentatious Display offends me on so many levels.
Wow. I think I have a new least favourite feat.

I read that feat quickly and didn't catch the non-magical and do not stack bits. Without these, the feat would mean that social characters can have extra-blingey magical items for an eventual +3 on useful social skills.

As it is, it's offensively bad.

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp · Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:46 pm

The GSL was an okay idea. The problem was that they already released 3.5 under the OGL. If they never did the former, Paizo might very well have accepted the GSL.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:18 pm

nockermensch wrote:
hogarth wrote:
virgil wrote:Ostentatious Display offends me on so many levels.
Wow. I think I have a new least favourite feat.
I read that feat quickly and didn't catch the non-magical and do not stack bits. Without these, the feat would mean that social characters can have extra-blingey magical items for an eventual +3 on useful social skills.

As it is, it's offensively bad.

I can't tell looking at the PFSRD. Did PF get rid of the +2 masterwork skill items? If not, this feat is absolutely horrible. If so, then it's just plain, garden-variety horrible.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:05 pm

This feat is Off-Hand Parry horrible. Not just horrible because it's woefully underpowered for a limited resource (like Alertness) or even horrible because it has literally no game effect at all (like 3.0E Eagle Claw Attack).

No, it's Off-Hand Parry horrible because using the feat will literally make you a worse character than not using it. And like Off-Hand Parry, using the feat will make you even worse as the game goes on.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:00 pm

RobbyPants wrote:
nockermensch wrote:
hogarth wrote:Wow. I think I have a new least favourite feat.
I read that feat quickly and didn't catch the non-magical and do not stack bits. Without these, the feat would mean that social characters can have extra-blingey magical items for an eventual +3 on useful social skills.

As it is, it's offensively bad.
I can't tell looking at the PFSRD. Did PF get rid of the +2 masterwork skill items? If not, this feat is absolutely horrible. If so, then it's just plain, garden-variety horrible.

They still have the same source of masterwork skill items as 3.5, and the formula for magic items that improve a skill remains (bonus squared x 100)gp

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:24 pm

"But it's for a great RP opportunity!"

...because you know, having the ring of your father, and selling it at each level to buy a new one is "a great roleplay opportunity".

LeadPal · Post by **LeadPal** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:28 am

That's a lot of words to spend on a feat that's literally just the Extremely Fashionable trait made worse in every way.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:38 am

This does mean you should never trust the opinion of this guy for just about anything. He goes out of his way to tell you how much he likes this feat and conjure deadfall.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:52 am

hogarth wrote:
virgil wrote:Ostentatious Display offends me on so many levels.
Wow. I think I have a new least favourite feat.

Hey, at least I can show that feat to my players whenever they claim Pathfinder is better than 3.5e.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:53 pm

This might be a stupid question. But how exactly do the ageing rules work in Pathfinder?

The penalties you gain for older ages, seem to be ability penalties. Does this mean that middle age only gives you a bonus since ability penalties only count in multiples of 2?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:55 pm

Do people actually use the aging rules?

Sigil · Post by **Sigil** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:19 pm

They shouldn't, in any edition.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:24 pm

ishy wrote:This might be a stupid question. But how exactly do the ageing rules work in Pathfinder?

Sigil wrote:They shouldn't, in any edition.

The only times I've seen it done are when people are trying to min-max lots of odd ability scores, or if they're playing some type of cheesy kobold that doesn't get aging penalties, so they can take +3 across the board on their mental stats.

I've never seen them come up in play "normally". Most campaigns I've seen tend to end within a few months of game time, and even then, they're often padded artificially with down time.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:37 pm

Well pathfinder has abilities and spells that specifically invoke them.
For example the Age out bloodline power or the age resistance spells.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:04 pm

RobbyPants wrote:The only times I've seen it done are when people are trying to min-max lots of odd ability scores, or if they're playing some type of cheesy kobold that doesn't get aging penalties, so they can take +3 across the board on their mental stats.

I've seen at least two players who made sure to start off middle-aged or something with their spellcaster in most campaigns for a year or two. One of them loved to try and use a venerable druid in games.

Guyr Adamantine · Post by **Guyr Adamantine** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:09 pm

LeadPal wrote:That's a lot of words to spend on a feat that's literally just the Extremely Fashionable trait made worse in every way.

I need to punch something now.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Guyr Adamantine wrote:
LeadPal wrote:That's a lot of words to spend on a feat that's literally just the Extremely Fashionable trait made worse in every way.
I need to punch something now.

Don't click this link, then.
Seriously, empty pages with FOR CAMPAIGN NOTES written on the header are a better use of paper than some of those traits.

Guyr Adamantine · Post by **Guyr Adamantine** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:45 pm

nockermensch wrote:
Guyr Adamantine wrote:
LeadPal wrote:That's a lot of words to spend on a feat that's literally just the Extremely Fashionable trait made worse in every way.
I need to punch something now.
Don't click this link, then.
Seriously, empty pages with FOR CAMPAIGN NOTES written on the header are a better use of paper than some of those traits.

Why didn't I listen to you?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:37 am

1st edition aging rules in the DMG are good. You get Con for being young, Str for being adult, and Wis/Int for being old. Ghosts and big spells make you wise, and youth potions make you hale and hearty again. It's a whole mini-game trying to stay in the age bracket that best boosts your class, but there's some benefit no matter where you are.

It helps that you can match any penalties to stats in the 8-14 range where you lost nothing anyway, and +1 on your prime was awesome and desperately needed.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:07 am

Is anyone actually doing quality control for Pathfinder right now?

Because it seems that all of the things that made 3E D&D need to have such a drastic revision in the first place are popping back in. The only thing that really seems to be off-limits as far as 3E D&D power creep goes is giving full spellcasters full BAB for more than a few rounds and stat replacement. I mean, an 8th-level kitsune sorcerer has a free +4 to the enchantment DC saves over a PHB race. Or as I mentioned earlier a Samsaran wizard being able to snatch Simacrulum as a 5th level spell and Greater Planar Binding as a 7th level spell. Or a regular-ass cleric with the Void domain. Or animate objects going from a stupid pet trick to a fiddly but ridiculously powerful spell that Voltrons the broken parts of polymorph.

I mean, I thought Pathfinder was supposed to be '3E D&D, but with nerfs for the gullible so that you can play it longer'. Obviously that didn't even pan out from the start, but why intentionally undermine the game?

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:36 pm

nockermensch wrote:
Guyr Adamantine wrote:
LeadPal wrote:That's a lot of words to spend on a feat that's literally just the Extremely Fashionable trait made worse in every way.
I need to punch something now.
Don't click this link, then.
Seriously, empty pages with FOR CAMPAIGN NOTES written on the header are a better use of paper than some of those traits.

What is hilarious is that this thing is exactly what a Trait was supposed to be: a ridiculously irrelevant trick/ability that's just there to give something out-of-the-ordinary to a regular character build.

(And then they added traits that gave meaningful, permanent bonuses to stuff that matters)

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:29 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I mean, I thought Pathfinder was supposed to be '3E D&D, but with nerfs for the gullible so that you can play it longer'. Obviously that didn't even pan out from the start, but why intentionally undermine the game?

I think you might be asking the wrong question.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:52 pm

What is so great about the void domain?
+2 to most will saves is nice, but you're already a cleric.

Part the veil doesn't look very useful.
Any particular single target spells where adding a confusion effect if they fail their will save is useful?
And even then, they get a new save every round.
What kind of action / when during their turn do they actually get the save?

Planar binding is nice, getting planar binding in domain slots, not so much. Especially multiple versions. If you have a wizard in the group, she can just pick it up.
Flight spells are nice though.