Solutions to the Fighter Problem: Fighter Replacements

[Sigil]

Aren't we supposed to be spoilering the threadcrapping/discussion?

I'd sort of given up on that honestly.

[sabs]

What about adding some EX abilities to the fighter that is actually more weeboo-like, but explained using pseudo-science.

For example, cutting buildings in half is explained by cutting so precisely and with such force that you create a Newton's Cradle effect that continues to cut the building using the same impulse/force displacing all matter. While in air it will not be as effective (not dense enough to displace matter).

In the water, you displace water with such force, you create a tidal wave or jet-streams. With a large weapon ,you swing hard enough to displace air and blow out a large fire..or an explosion (if you have an interrupt left).

Also weapon users concentrate their power in a point or cutting edge (or just plain mass with a blunt weapon), so you can create stuff "singularity strike" where you concentrate all your strength into a single point to shatter a force cage, etc. (didnt force effects used to have only 1 hp with 30 DR?)

And ofcourse, you can jump like the hulk...your strength is like 30+. You should totally be able to jump toward a flying dragon, grapple it and throw it on the ground in a single round, leaving a crater from the dragon's bodily impact. Then prolly do a drop-kick from the sky as you fall down, using a swift/interrupt action for it.

And no magic is used at all...just applications of super-muscles, force and physics (or pseudo physics).

-Wulf

This is just like the goddamn cypherpunk Shadowrun thread. This is D&D.. just tell physics and science to GTFO.
Quantum physics do not belong in any discussion of D&D. If you want your stupid Charles Atlas fucker to use psychobabble to explain why he can cut a building in half, because.. he is harnessing magic offends you? Then FUCK YOU. Seriously, just shut the fuck up and go away.

That being said..
THe Hulk going to town on those flying snake dragon things in Avengers? That's fucking awesome. Actually.. that entire new york city fight scene in Avengers? That's how I envision epic D&D fights looking. If you're okay with the Hulk or Thor as what High Level Fighter looks like? That's fine. But both those guys have a power source that isn't.. "I work out"

[zugschef]

That being said..
THe Hulk going to town on those flying snake dragon things in Avengers? That's fucking awesome. Actually.. that entire new york city fight scene in Avengers? That's how I envision epic D&D fights looking. If you're okay with the Hulk or Thor as what High Level Fighter looks like? That's fine. But both those guys have a power source that isn't.. "I work out"

srzly, hulk, thor and iron man beat up a god, destroy colossal sized snake dragons, destroy the enemy's base with their own weapon and ultimately save mankind, while captain america protects and rescues a few people (who are too stupid to realize who really saved their asses) and black widow and hawkeye kill an insignificant amount of mooks.
--> black widow and hawkeye are rogue and fighter, cpt. america is a paladin, while thor and hulk are codzilla and iron man is an artificer.

also, i'm totally convinced that the fighter-fappers will feel that black widow and hawkeye contributed in this epic battle and are totally fine as is, because they are too simple-minded to grasp the differences between the accomplishments of each of these characters. they are the kind of people who are fooled into believing that the masses went crazy by a take that actually shows twenty people cheering.

[Wrathzog]

Actually, people who want Fighters to cut buildings/mountains in half are going to accept any explanation that's thrown at them... or even no explanation beyond "This guy works out. a lot." Because that's the sort of thing that we want.

The reason why people come up with these explanations is for Other People. You're right, this IS D&D and we don't really need pseudo-science explanations for insane things in a world where a large subset of people actively ignore the laws of physics anyways.
-e- But not everyone agrees with that.

[Wulf]

I was offering alternative solutions for people who want no-magic fighters. Personally, I like chi/magically enhanced/aura-manipulating fighters that use telekinesis to manipulate 12 swords to skewer his enemies and dive into burning magma to drag back a demon that was trying to escape.

D&D is simulationist, physics works just fine in D&D. Strength grows beyond realistic human limits. Certain players can't fathom how super-human strength affects their combat ,so I offer ideas to show how it effects combat. This is because strength "feats" dont scale with the same speed as magical spells.

Your whining only shows that you dont like Charles Atlas powers, however, D&D certainly can handle that just fine and if people want to play that, than that is fine too.

The hulk power source for his battle is his muscles. He is Charles Atlas. Its not gamma radiation..that is just HOW he got his muscles so big (mutation). Other people train, use dope, use a magical belt...the Hulk painted himself green and said "Me Smash".

[zugschef]

The hulk power source for his battle is his muscles. He is Charles Atlas. Its not gamma radiation..that is just HOW he got his muscles so big (mutation). Other people train, use dope, use a magical belt...the Hulk painted himself green and said "Me Smash".

bruce banner's power source is fukken shapeshifting.

[Wulf]

The hulk power source for his battle is his muscles. He is Charles Atlas. Its not gamma radiation..that is just HOW he got his muscles so big (mutation). Other people train, use dope, use a magical belt...the Hulk painted himself green and said "Me Smash".

bruce banner's power source is fukken shapeshifting.

The Hulk uses pure physical force. That which provide him the power for that physical force is his muscles, no chi or magical spells. Shapeshifting is just "fluff". He trained using dumbells, he shapeshifts, he drinks vitamin plus, he breathes in arcane energies. Whatever background you give it, he still punches people in the face, hard. He doesnt breath fire, he doesnt bind people with spells. He punches.

[zugschef]

The hulk power source for his battle is his muscles. He is Charles Atlas. Its not gamma radiation..that is just HOW he got his muscles so big (mutation). Other people train, use dope, use a magical belt...the Hulk painted himself green and said "Me Smash".

bruce banner's power source is fukken shapeshifting.

The Hulk uses pure physical force. That which provide him the power for that physical force is his muscles, no chi or magical spells. Shapeshifting is just "fluff". He trained using dumbells, he shapeshifts, he drinks vitamin plus, he breathes in arcane energies. Whatever background you give it, he still punches people in the face, hard. He doesnt breath fire, he doesnt bind people with spells. He punches.

*sigh* Beati pauperes spiritu...

The point is that Bruce Banner is fucking unkillable and uncontrollable. he is practically invincible, even in his natural form (he can shoot himself in the face and the green guy spits the bullets right out again). and if you'd force cage him, which would work, he'd just get so angry that he'd grow even larger until he'd crack open the force cage, like roots crack concrete. this shit has got nothing to do with strength.

the fact that you think that pure physical force is his source of power, tells me that you don't even comprehend what people are arguing. his powers of destruction (which are all based on physics) are not the reason why he can participate in that fight. if he'd only have those, he'd simply be killed. it's his defenses. he is like a raging, shapeshifted and buffed up druid (without natural spell) which makes him mind-blanked, immune to death effects, poison, diseases, physical, energy damage, etc., and not like a huge war troll. all this has exactly nothing to do with his muscles or strength. nothing. at. all. also, if bruce banner wasn't bruce banner the hulk could go fuck himself because bruce banner is valuable to a high-level adventuring party, the hulk alone isn't.

come back, when you've understood why nobody cares about fighters after level six (hint: it's not the lack of offense).

[fectin]

The hulk is still valuable without Banner. He's basically a giant Pokemon.

[zugschef]

The hulk is still valuable without Banner. He's basically a giant Pokemon.

you have answered this yourself. a pokemon is not a viable high level character. it is a tool of angel summoner.

[Midnight_v]

Relevant Page Rage

Black widow and hawkeye kill an insignificant amount of mooks.
--> black widow and hawkeye are rogue and fighter, cpt. america is a paladin, while thor and hulk are codzilla and iron man is an artificer.

Bollocks.
Thor is a godamn fighter with a Sorcerer Cohort that happens to be a fucking hammer.
SO MUCH SO IS THIS TRUE
That you can actually GIVE the hammer to anyone who fits the alignment/attitude requirement, and they fucking RECEIVE the power of Thor.
CONAN REVCIEVED "THE POWER OF THOR"

Now thor without his hammer is indeed still a god, however... people picking UP that fucking hammer get all sorts of fucking useful powers.

Beta-ray-bill, has "STORMBREAKER" a clone of mjolnir granting the same abilities.

More poignant is Erik Masterson a.k.a thunderstrike, because Old horse face thor was a cyborg "thing" anyway...
Erik masterson was just a dude.

You can google how when thor is separated from masterson and he gets his own hammer he's all kinds of superhuman on the official marvel page. So... yeah. Eric Masterson
Thunderstrike Mace

Name: The Icarid / Destined Blade/ FateBlade/

Concept:
Fluff:
"As each worthy foe fell I found myself becoming somehow more or less human, and while my blood has become distant from that of my ancestors... I can still hear them cheering me on."


Under this model, Xp equates with "Destiny" or some such and depending on how you use it, allows you to perform greater and great feats of reality bending. Full casters, Paladins, EVEN BERSERKERS (when they use giant frog, devil bear, or balor) expend it in direct forms meanwhile the DMF's and VAH's never ACTUALLY USE it in a magical way and thus start themselves to somehow change.

A DECENT example of something similar to this I think would be the
Progenitor of Gith for example (meaning that's not a debate point about the class, just the type of things I'm alluding to)

Solutions: The base of this concept: Tinkering Xp to mean P.P.E. or a quickening like in highlander or some such free up the entire limiting factor of VERSIMILITUDE. Which I think is the biggest drawback of the "fighter" name with many people. Everyone else in the game is using the xp they get to do level appropriate (and magical) things, so the idea has to be redefined into something the Melee guy can use.

Is this idea a class that fills or subsumes the role of the Martial Swordsman archetype?
Yes. Frankly, the entire problem where having is the premise that the "Martial Swordsman archetype" expires at level 6 (or so).
Therefore with this class we could genuinely write it as a tome fighter or warblade or... WHATEVER is valid for 6 levels. So you can play as Leonidus or William Wallace or Gimley for about that long. . .

Does the idea allow for fighting type characters to progress into and be viable at high level play with other characters with high power magical power sources?
However, when you hit 7th (or any arbitrary number we decide) and "shit starts getting real" you get more real. You've absorbed enough destiny from the universe that it starts to shape for you. Casters and others have been using this since day 1 in a more direct manner.
This is an extension of the message in "The Secret" or Paulo Coello's "The Alchemist" where by pursuing your personal legend affects everything
This take inherently fixes the powersourcing thing as ultimately you're using the "universal" power source in its purest form not diluted by "faith, complex ritual, or rage/possession"

Does this idea appeal to people who would typically want to play a Fighter?
I believe it does. I don't claim to everyone's mind but... There are a few types of people that want to play the fighter, and this should facilitate most of them. IF you can get them to accept that there is a problem in the first place, and depending upon if they are offended by the fighter getting (SU) powers EVER... in which case it's hard to justify some of this stuff as (ex)
It should really enable the people who want to play drizzt at low levels and need to become thor at high levels. It should also be able to do some of what they want visually without going completely anime untill such time that they "HAVE to be Thor"

Rules:
In the title of the class I mentioned the "Icarid" because I took a bit of inspiration from After Sundown thinking about the rules here. Icarids because they start off as just people. . . now of course in this model "Defeating worthy foes in combat" is the ritual you use to get your powers but... there are a few things these guys get right out the box.
Clout: now specifically we're looking at the devastation power but all of it could be rolled in to the class if we were feeling randy. Still its a D&D model so how that should work is that:
"Your attacks generate "FORCE"" so much such that eventually you're attacking squared not dude damn near. This gets around a LOT of things in D&D for the fighter... "SWARMS, Incorpreals" etc.
Now how that should scale with damage and the such? I'm not sure because I'm tired and I'd need the number's gang to tell me what LA damage is with a power like that, and how many effects it'd need to carry
Indomitability: I took that word over fortitude since there would be a conflicting meaning so this is what allows this class to play at high level at all. THIS IS THE POWER OF "BENCHMARKS".
annnnd... I gotta got to work, finish in 9 hours.

EDIT Or maybe not since no one gives two shits

[Xaos]

bruce banner's power source is fukken shapeshifting.

The Hulk uses pure physical force. That which provide him the power for that physical force is his muscles, no chi or magical spells. Shapeshifting is just "fluff". He trained using dumbells, he shapeshifts, he drinks vitamin plus, he breathes in arcane energies. Whatever background you give it, he still punches people in the face, hard. He doesnt breath fire, he doesnt bind people with spells. He punches.

*sigh* Beati pauperes spiritu...

The point is that Bruce Banner is fucking unkillable and uncontrollable. he is practically invincible, even in his natural form (he can shoot himself in the face and the green guy spits the bullets right out again). and if you'd force cage him, which would work, he'd just get so angry that he'd grow even larger until he'd crack open the force cage, like roots crack concrete. this shit has got nothing to do with strength.

the fact that you think that pure physical force is his source of power, tells me that you don't even comprehend what people are arguing. his powers of destruction (which are all based on physics) are not the reason why he can participate in that fight. if he'd only have those, he'd simply be killed. it's his defenses. he is like a raging, shapeshifted and buffed up druid (without natural spell) which makes him mind-blanked, immune to death effects, poison, diseases, physical, energy damage, etc., and not like a huge war troll. all this has exactly nothing to do with his muscles or strength. nothing. at. all. also, if bruce banner wasn't bruce banner the hulk could go fuck himself because bruce banner is valuable to a high-level adventuring party, the hulk alone isn't.

come back, when you've understood why nobody cares about fighters after level six (hint: it's not the lack of offense).

What if the force cage really was an immovable object? The giant Giga-Hulk would crush himself under his own weight. If it is destructible, why can't a higher level fighter destroy it?

Also, why is being "not (un)like a war troll" have "nothing to do with strength?" It has everything to do with strength. Size is usually a liability (see the invincible force cage, above), but it adds to muscularity, and the rock-hard muscles help make Giga-Hulk bend the cage instead of the cage bending Giga-Hulk.

Huh. Maybe Strength should provide natural armor and/or DR.

As for his defenses, D&D has technically been trying to suggest the Fighter is tougher than other classes since its inception. Now, that inception basically just gave the Fighting man +1 hp per level over the Cleric and Magic user, so bigger hit dice and fortitude bonuses actually WERE an improvement which would HELP make him immune to most of the things on that list.

The designers just seem to be afraid of commitment. "Well, if we give him lots of feats, he'll be a special snowflake and that will make him balanced, right?" WRONG, mother fucker!

To fix the 3e fighter (4e Fighters get MMO abilities as well as the assurance they will never face anything too scary that they can't Save out of by the end of the turn.) and keep all the monster's abilities....you would have to do some reworking of all the "Fuck you, your dead now" abilities and make them all less Binary. Make them either do hp damage or work in some other system of progress, and give fighters some sort of defense. Let them Fast heal ability damage.

They don't have immediate fixes to reverse something horrible happening to them, but there isn't much of a reason to not give Fighters of a certain level not just a resilient Chassis, but a REDONKULOUSLY resilient Chassis to every single attack form ever- compared to other characters. Alsp, extreme Mobility and other options to play around with can only lead to good things.

In most Video Game RPGs, people pick the "Fighter" for sturdiness and ease of use. Before the concept of "Tanks" ruined everything, Fighters were usually advertised as the "Hundred Hand Slap" class. A competitive amount of power for not much skill or research.

Closing Statement:

Really, when people whine about Fighters having nice things, I think the problem might be that actually, regardless of things like "Physics" and "Robin can't wrestle a giant! RAAAAAGEEQUIIIITT!", the real problem might be that they don't want COMPLICATED things.

They want high power but low skill, and all of the Fighter's abilties to be small and intuitive and easy to remember. That's why the 3e fighter is just a bundle of Feats, and earlier fighters are just "Guy with Sword who gets a castle one day". Players have to pony up and deal with a little bit of bookkeeping, and stop crying over things being "Too Anime" or whatever when they see a fighter class that is actually competitive. No, its not that its "Too Anime", its that you have to stop stuffing your face with Doritos and keep track of what status effects you are immune to now!