Game of Thrones: Rape & Bestiality is now mainstream?

[Neurosis]

Absolutely nothing that happens with Jon Snow's sex life is superfluous, considering it's all directly relevant to what he has to give up to take the black.

[Shrapnel]

Unnecessarily graphic and detailed scenes of sex and violence are really dumb and, well, unnecessary. In my opinion, they detract from the story, no matter how well they're written; they just turn the story into The Texas Chainsaw Massacre Part 93: Exploding Boobs in Your Vagina.

Nothing in GoT is unnecessary except the goddamn food descriptions. Everything else serves a necessary thematic and/or literary purpose.

And you sound like a puritan/prude. Then again, I love blood and titties (but not in combination), lesbian stripper ninjas for the win.

I'm not a prude, and me and my overactive imagination take offence at the very notion. I love naked ladies, and all the related errata. Never had one before, but I love 'em nonetheless. My problem is when stories have lots of sex and violence just to make them... edgy.

I don't need an explicit account of some dude banging his wife; just say they did it and leave the rest up to the imagination - the perverted mind is so much better at coming up with sexytime fantasies than anything that can be put onto paper.

[PoliteNewb]

I don't need an explicit account of some dude banging his wife; just say they did it and leave the rest up to the imagination - the perverted mind is so much better at coming up with sexytime fantasies than anything that can be put onto paper.

Damn straight. Robert Heinlein was a gigantic pervert, and his characters got into some pretty freaky shit...but he didn't write very many explicit sex scenes (I can't think of any, offhand).

I don't really have a problem with explicit sex in my fiction, though...but if you really want that kind of thing, they do make something called porn.

[Shrapnel]

...but if you really want that kind of thing, they do make something called porn

Yeah, that's pretty much my view on the whole subject.

[Chamomile]

Absolutely nothing that happens with Jon Snow's sex life is superfluous, considering it's all directly relevant to what he has to give up to take the black.

Sex. Sex is what he has to give up to take the black. So when he has sex for contrived reasons in situations where alternative solutions are hyperabundant, it's not only irrelevant, it's actually directly contradictory to his character.

[icyshadowlord]

We're seriously trying to argue about how fanservice is actually a plot point when it isn't?

[Kaelik]

We're seriously trying to argue about how fanservice is actually a plot point when it isn't?

I think the diversion is that some people are talking about the books, and some people are talking about the show.

In the books, sex is explicitly talked about relatively rarely, and is often plot important.

In the show, hookers be hooking, because how could you listen to words without boobies on the screen.

Explicit sex scenes in the book that don't fade to balck are:

1) Jamie and Cersi before the window push, and again when he arrives in Kings Landing.
2) Danni with Drogo the first time, Danni alone being Lesbian because she misses (which if it has significance, I don't know what it is).
3) Probably some other stuff I don't remember, but for sure nothing involving Snow, because he gets cut to black pretty quick.

That said, the criticism of Jon snow sexing when it doesn't make sense for him to doesn't make sense to me. Have you read the books? Is the show just really bad. It makes perfect fucking sense for him to sex.

[icyshadowlord]

Nobody argued whether it made sense or not.

The main issue was if the sex is a plot point, or just something that happened.

It's like trying to put a plot point in someone eating. People eat because they die if they don't.

Now if the food had been poisoned and the character dies because of it, THAT would make the food a plot point.

[shadzar]

Hooker Banging Orifices (HBO) has shows on it with lots of sex.. simple as that.

[RobbyPants]

Nobody argued whether it made sense or not.

Two posts up:

Absolutely nothing that happens with Jon Snow's sex life is superfluous, considering it's all directly relevant to what he has to give up to take the black.

Sex. Sex is what he has to give up to take the black. So when he has sex for contrived reasons in situations where alternative solutions are hyperabundant, it's not only irrelevant, it's actually directly contradictory to his character.

[Kaelik]

Now if the food had been poisoned and the character dies because of it, THAT would make the food a plot point.

Yeah, and like talking, talking is not in any way ever a plot point unless people die during it.

Do you not get that sex is a social interaction, and so sex can have social ramifications with other humans that are relevant to the plot?

I mean, here is a short list of things that happen because of sex in ASOIAF:

0) An entire fucking war is really started about who gets to fuck Lyanna Stark.
1) Bastards are born that set the entire fucking thing in motion.
2) A Kid gets pushed off a tower and breaks his fucking spine.
3) The Wildlings tentatively accept that Jon Snow has forsaken the Black.
4) Danni gets pregnant and miscarries and can never have kids again.
5) Tyrion. Everything about Tyrion. Tyrion and ?Tyra? Tyrion and Shae. Even and especially the part where she has sex with Tywin, because otherwise he might not even be dead.
6) Walder Frey feels slighted, thus Red Wedding.

And that's not even getting into the other fucking shit that happens because people want to have sex with other people, that is just the direct consequences of the social interaction part of sex.

[Stahlseele]

did somebody say red wedding?
http://teamcoco.com/video/conan-highlig ... -reactions
*snickers*

[TheFlatline]

did somebody say red wedding?
http://teamcoco.com/video/conan-highlig ... -reactions
*snickers*

Am I the only one who was actually pleased with the Red Wedding?

Yeah, it was kind of shocking, but man... Robb was getting on my nerves. His mom too.

[Kaelik]

did somebody say red wedding?
http://teamcoco.com/video/conan-highlig ... -reactions
*snickers*

Am I the only one who was actually pleased with the Red Wedding?

Yeah, it was kind of shocking, but man... Robb was getting on my nerves. His mom too.

Do you narratively? I was upset at first, but it is just fine as far as I am concerned.

Do you mean in the show? It was complete trash that just didn't convey any real emotion for me, just a shockfest.

But I don't know about his mother, is mute Cait really any better than talking Cait?

[flare22]

So Game of Thrones is the most torrented show in the world and a best selling novel series, and it features swords and bits of magic and dragons and lots of rape and sex and mutilation, incest and castration, and at least one guy turning into a dog to get fucked by an alpha wolf. And it's really popular and everyone has heard of it.

Has it influenced tabletop gaming though? Have any companies taken note and released products with an 'edginess' like Game of Thrones, not shying from barbarians raping everything or have druids get banged by their animal companions?

im not sure about the edginess but pathfinder kingmaker module is a clear rip off of game of thrones from succession struggle to coral the conqueror and his three dragons and every noble house having family words. not to mention many of Brevoys noble houses are rip offs of game of thrones families

such as House Orlovsky which is a pretty obvious cope of house Arryn from its eagle sigil to its neutrality and mountain fort oh and there words are high above while house Arryns words are as high as honor.

also House Rogarvia is clearly based on House Targaryen both were founded my foreign invaders who united the kingdom both invaders used three fire breathing dragons both built forts in their capitals House Targaryen built the red keep and House Rogarvia built the ruby fortress oh and if those fortress names are not close enough for you a Targaryen price was killed at a river that became know as the ruby ford. and both houses ended suddenly causing a succession struggle. House Rogarvia's words are"With Sword and Flame" and house Targaryen's words are Fire and Blood

finally House Surtova is a shameless rip off of house House Baratheon. House Baratheon's words are "Ours is the Fury" and House Surtova words are "Ours Is the Right" next both families are the current rulers of their respective countries in the aftermath of the first succession struggle. King Robert and king Noleski both both have brothers who rule over the traditional lands of their house Renly rules storms end and Domani Surtova rules ice port. one might also point out that house surtova also ripped off house Frey because both are decedents of pirate kings

[icyshadowlord]

Huh, shows how naive I was thinking they actually had some time and effort put into the while setting in Brevoy.

[Avoraciopoctules]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kn9o?Brevoy-Westeros

Brevoy is very much inspired by George R. R. Martin's stories. Which is why we got Steve Kenson to write the Brevoy article—he also worked on Green Ronin's RPG version of Martin's stories. Of course, Brevoy is a LOT more magic than Westeros!

"Russian Westeros" is in fact a pretty concise way to summarize Brevoy.

[hyzmarca]

But I don't know about his mother, is mute Cait really any better than talking Cait?

There's something positive to be said about evil undead mass-murder Cait.

[Stubbazubba]

Now if the food had been poisoned and the character dies because of it, THAT would make the food a plot point.

Yeah, and like talking, talking is not in any way ever a plot point unless people die during it.

Do you not get that sex is a social interaction, and so sex can have social ramifications with other humans that are relevant to the plot?

I mean, here is a short list of things that happen because of sex in ASOIAF:

0) An entire fucking war is really started about who gets to fuck Lyanna Stark.
1) Bastards are born that set the entire fucking thing in motion.
2) A Kid gets pushed off a tower and breaks his fucking spine.
3) The Wildlings tentatively accept that Jon Snow has forsaken the Black.
4) Danni gets pregnant and miscarries and can never have kids again.
5) Tyrion. Everything about Tyrion. Tyrion and ?Tyra? Tyrion and Shae. Even and especially the part where she has sex with Tywin, because otherwise he might not even be dead.
6) Walder Frey feels slighted, thus Red Wedding.

And that's not even getting into the other fucking shit that happens because people want to have sex with other people, that is just the direct consequences of the social interaction part of sex.

I haven't read the books or watched much of the show, but seriously? How many of these actually have to do with explicit details about the sex going on? Most of these plot points would be equally well served by fade-to-black or other narrative hand-waves, and then get on with the consequences of the act, but he writes the intricacies for the sheer indulgence of the sex scene. Nothing about the intricacies of the sex scene go on to matter, just the fact that sex was had. In that case, it's a sex scene for sex's sake. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with that, but to claim that "all sex scenes contain important plot points because sex has these consequences, therefore all the sex details are necessary" is untrue, because those details don't matter in the majority of cases. Characters can have sex without an explicit sex scene, y'know, and we can arrive to the majority of these plot points without them. The extra sex scenes are authorial indulgences, not critical plot points in and of themselves.

I mean, that's like saying a ten-minute conversation between two complete nobodies in a cafe that leads up to a bomb going off and killing them which introduces a villain or a conflict but otherwise does not relate to the rest of the story was a necessary, ten-minute long scene because the end result (the bomb, or maybe their deaths) is important later. No, it's not; if the details of that conversation are meaningless to the story, the scene itself is meaningless to the drama, and should be pared down to capture just the meaningful bits.

[Kaelik]

I haven't read the books or watched much of the show, but seriously?

Oh, then in that case you should shut the fuck up, because you are an idiot for explicitly stating your ignorance and then pretending that you are allowed to contribute to the conversation.

Most of these plot points would be equally well served by fade-to-black or other narrative hand-waves, and then get on with the consequences of the act,

Some of them would be, but some of them wouldn't. For example, Tyrion and Shae. The plot point and consequences mean a lot less if you don't establish their relationship. No one complains when you use talking to establish a relationship so people can understand later plot points, but since the relationship is that she is his whore all the talking is done either right before, during, or right after sex. Even if you made all the during talk into before or after, it makes more sense to have the scenes where he says "and then we had sex on the floor. 30 minutes later blah" than to cut to black like a fucking prude only to cut in 30 minutes later.

And for certain the tower push couldn't be cut to black, because the entire scene is told from the point of view of the kid climbing a tower, seeing two people fucking, then getting pushed off the tower because he wasn't supposed to see them fucking.

but he writes the intricacies for the sheer indulgence of the sex scene.

Maybe he does a couple times in 7000 pages. Who gives a fuck. If you weren't arguing from an explicit position of having no fucking clue what you were talking about, you would know that most of the sex in the books are implied. Jon Snow cuts to black. Robb's sex is mentioned from his mother's point of view after hearing about it. A lot more of Danni's sex is explicit than needs to be, but of late it has been retrospective implied sex too. Tyrion and Shae is a whole bunch of conversations with like a paragraph of sex at most between the conversations.

Jamie and Cersie is spelled out twice, once for tower pushing when it absolutely had to be, and once later, where there is a pretty damn good reason for it.

I mean, seriously, let's go over this again:

I haven't read the books . . . but he writes the intricacies for the sheer indulgence of the sex scene.

You are a fucking idiot.

[Whipstitch]

I'm about as out on GoT as it is possible to be, but yeah, I do rather feel like Stub's clowning himself here.

[sabs]

To quote George himself:

I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it's madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. Axes entering skulls, well, not so much.

And he has a point. All the fighting is equaly pointless. We could take all of the fight scenes and fade to black, just having people talk about the consequences.

[Chamomile]

To quote George himself:

I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it's madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. Axes entering skulls, well, not so much.

And he has a point. All the fighting is equaly pointless. We could take all of the fight scenes and fade to black, just having people talk about the consequences.

And usually we do.

[Stubbazubba]

Always a pleasure to talk to Kaelik.

Let's go with the violence comparison: The violence exists to make whatever impression on the reader is necessary for the drama that the character is experiencing to be felt vicariously. If they are afraid or disgusted by the violence, we need to be a little afraid or disgusted, as well, so that when they overcome that fear (or it is used against them or otherwise comes up later), we feel it on a deeper level.

That being said, if your character's relationship to the gore is not a plot point, but his/his side's heroics or his/his side's struggle is, then having such explicit scenes of gore is, yeah, kind of indulgent. It doesn't drive the point the author is trying to make in the scene, it just adds to an "adult, gritty" tone that may or may not have anything to do with the themes being explored.

Gratuitous violence is not universally appropriate simply because violence is happening, or because the battle is important. As Chamomile said, we skip over most of the gratuitous violence in most fantasy works, whether written or filmed, because it's not important to the themes or the character drama, it doesn't help us connect to the character or the story. In short, the spewing forth of brain, blood, hair, skin, and bone from an axe entering a human skull probably doesn't have much bearing on the story (depending on the story), and is similarly author excess if that's the case.

Now, GRRM is obviously trying to create a gritty tone with, well, pretty much everything in ASoIaF, from what he's said about his intention with the series. I assume that works for what he's trying to get at with the characters. Or maybe they're all totally desensitized to it and it's entirely for the audience's enjoyment, or as a statement about the audience's enjoyment of it.

Regardless, the list of "plot points" that made explicit sex scenes so integral to the story that Kaelik put up was anything but convincing ("Children are born! How can you not show mom and dad getting it on?? The plot hinges on that penis and that vagina!"), and the more details he gives about them, the more it sounds like descriptions of penises entering vaginas are not the plot points in many of those scenes.

[infected slut princess]

Yeah, providing vivid descriptions of sex and violence is stupid.

In fact, why spend any time describing anything? Why not just say, "There was a story and it happened. The End"

But hot sex is HOT.