Choosing a Time period; or People don't know history

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle »

PhoneLobster wrote: No really. People were having work banned for having high heels on shoes. Not even like stilettos, but really, just mildly elevated heels. Because some dumb chump though that wasn't historically accurate enough for a dragon wizard or whatever bullshit to wear. There were arguments about acceptable belt buckle designs
That sucks, high heels have a long history that totally fits with fantasy:
http://www.randomhistory.com/1-50/036heels.html
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Post by Bihlbo »

nockermensch wrote:
Bihlbo wrote:Stop calling it fantasy. It's all SF.
I think you have this exactly backwards. Most Sci works Fi have elements that as far as we know are pure fantasy (FTL travel, aliens, psionics, strong AIs with personalities, etc), with only the barest of technological dressings over them.
SF = Speculative Fiction. Fantasy and scifi are both SF.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

SAANTBWTCI, Bihlbo.


(That stands for "Sometimes Acronyms Are Not The Best Way To Confer Information", if it wasn't obvious)
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Post by sabs »

I like setting my Fantasy Heartbreakers in Post Alexander the Great, Pre-Ghenghis Khan India.

More people than you can shake a stick at.
Lots of wilderness, political machinations out the Ganges.

Big cities AND Big Wilderness in one spot.
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Post by fectin »

Clever. How do you learn enough Indian history to do that without being offensive?


Slightly related: Steampunk Central Africa: awesome setting or racist landmine?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by sabs »

You read wikipedia? And I don't play with any one whose Indian in anyway.. so I don't really worry about being offensive?

Oh and the Cast System is rife for making fun of/horrifying players.
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Post by hyzmarca »

fectin wrote:Clever. How do you learn enough Indian history to do that without being offensive?


Slightly related: Steampunk Central Africa: awesome setting or racist landmine?
Both.


It works when it's purely Steampunk Central Africa and not Steampunk Colonial Central Africa. Do some actual research on historical pre-colonial central African civilizations and just create a setting where steam tech was invented in Africa and there are no major white characters.

If there are no white people, and your African characters have to actually drive to plot on their own, that alone will help avoid a lot of the pitfalls of writing about Africa.

Just don't call it "the dark continent."
Last edited by hyzmarca on Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

fectin wrote:Clever. How do you learn enough Indian history to do that without being offensive?


Slightly related: Steampunk Central Africa: awesome setting or racist landmine?
Landmine.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

K wrote:
fectin wrote:Clever. How do you learn enough Indian history to do that without being offensive?


Slightly related: Steampunk Central Africa: awesome setting or racist landmine?
Landmine.
Any advice on how to not make it a landmine though?

I'm sick of retreading "hurr-durr vykings is myddle aegs".

I'm not saying that I'm willing to have steam technology without an explanation stemming from Africa.

On the other hand, given the inherent simplicity of the original aeropilie; and the fact that while it's called Heron's Engine; it predated him in literature by at least a century ... I could see a logic behind multiple brass/iron age cultures developing their own forms of steam powered mechanisms.
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Post by OgreBattle »

I just like post apocalypse worlds like Nausicaa, where the wilderness is so hostile that civilizations are quite isolated and you can explain anything by "they dug it out of the ground recently/in the past"

It's interesting to see where folks in the past set their fantasy adventures though. Geoffery Chaucer (Canterbury tales) wrote about Genghis Khan's kids going on magical adventures in Asia.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by fectin »

To clarify slightly, that idea was to make someplace like Timbuktu the knowledge center of the world and have the Toureg building steam monstrosities, not to retread Europe's centuries-long rampage.

I suspect the answer doesn't change though.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by flare22 »

If your looking for a period in human history with lots of unexplored ruins of ancient empires as well and knights in plate mail existing along side gunpowder weapens then 14th century europe is exactly what you want
Last edited by flare22 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Those who fail to learn history
are doomed to repeat it;
those who fail to learn history correctly--
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Post by Nath »

Judging__Eagle wrote:I'm not saying that I'm willing to have steam technology without an explanation stemming from Africa.

On the other hand, given the inherent simplicity of the original aeropilie; and the fact that while it's called Heron's Engine; it predated him in literature by at least a century ... I could see a logic behind multiple brass/iron age cultures developing their own forms of steam powered mechanisms.
If I was to design an uchronic setting on the fly, I'd say give a headstart in steam technology to Carthage, but not enough not to loose the third Punic War, and have a few Carthaginians flee the destruction of their city and heading south, founding a new empire on the Niger to taking revenge on Rome a few decades or centuries later with steam powered tanks.
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Post by hyzmarca »

The key to mass producing steam tech isn't the steam engine itself, it's the Bessemer process for smelting steel.

The problem with the aeropile and it's contemporaneous was that the materials of the day just couldn't withstand pressures sufficient to do useful work, so they were relegated to toys and tricks.

If they get mass production of high-qualitysteel going, though a steam revolution is quite possible.

Of course, it doesn't help that philosophers back then thought that you could deduce physical laws a-priori. Having someone invent the scientific method and create a culture of experimentation would be great, too.
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Post by fectin »

Without an a-priori explanation though you don't actually have science. You have engineering.

Not that there's anything wrong with science's sexier cousin, but they are different
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Then, knowing the history of science; and the scientific method; prior to Galileo; what elements of his culture insisted that the mortal could understand the immortal; or that the universe was a structure that could be measured and understood?

Perhaps more scientific priesthoods in Egypt, China, Mesopotamia, and India compete intellectually; and trade of knowledge is considered key?

I'm assuming that this is a time period when the wilds, and areas near cities are veritable spawning beds of Giant Animals, Zombies, and Goblins; while Evil Plants; Ghosts; and Demons are possibly more organized; and create their own civilizations in places where normal humans can't survive (the artic; deserts; volcanoes; the ocean).

With knowledge and research being driven forward b/c of the necessity of survival.

One such discovery might be that the three materials used to slay the undead; are each merely of a type. Wood is just one form of life (and their options are widened to include pteroleum-plastic and human fists); Silver is an anti-bacterial and doesn't corrode easily (screwing up creatures that rely on such to exist; so perhaps gold and platinum can also work); while iron is both common and reactive (so perhaps it's 'activeness' is why it deals aggrevated damage to certain creatures (perhaps copper works the same way?).
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Post by OgreBattle »

hyzmarca wrote:The key to mass producing steam tech isn't the steam engine itself, it's the Bessemer process for smelting steel.
There's a Chinese precursor to the Bessemer process that "utilized partial decarbonization via repeated forging under a cold blast."


"Historian Robert Hartwell points out that the 11th century Chinese of the Song Dynasty innovated a "partial decarbonization" method of repeated forging of cast iron under a cold blast. The historians Joseph Needham and Wertime acknowledged that this was the predecessor to the Bessemer process of making steel. This process was first described by the prolific scholar and polymath government official Shen Kuo (1031–1095) in 1075 when he visited Cizhou. Hartwell states that perhaps the earliest center where this was practiced was the great iron-production district along the Henan-Hebei border during the 11th century."
Read more her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... industries


I'm not sure on the exact numbers of output though.
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Post by Bihlbo »

Foxwarrior wrote:SAANTBWTCI, Bihlbo.

(That stands for "Sometimes Acronyms Are Not The Best Way To Confer Information", if it wasn't obvious)
Yup, I regret doing it now.
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Post by OgreBattle »

K, the Bessemer process originates in China:
"By no later than the end of the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 B.C.), the Chinese developed the technology of the blast furnace. This allowed them to heat the ore above its melting point, and produce cast iron. Among the inventions that made this possible, was the double-action bellows. The manufacture of iron, using a blast furnace to produce a molten metal, greatly expanded production: The process could be continuous, as the molten metal flowed from the reducing furnace, was poured into molds, and made into a large variety of products.

The blast furnace was introduced in Europe, on a wide scale, only in the late 14th Century, almost 2,000 years later. The use of cast iron was, unfortunately, introduced in Europe largely for the production of cannon; Henry VII constructed the first blast furnaces in England. The replacement of the bloom furnace with the blast furnace, increased productivity in the English iron industry 15-fold.

The Chinese were able to manufacture superior tools, that the more primitive European metallurgy was incapable of producing, which led to a substantial advance in productivity throughout the entire economy. As early as the Third Century B.C., the state of Qin appointed government officials to supervise the iron industry, and penalize manufacturers who produced substandard products. The Han Dynasty nationalized all cast-iron manufacture in 119 B.C. Around that time, there were 46 imperial Iron Casting Bureaus throughout the country, with government officials insuring that cast-iron tools were widely available. This included cast-iron plowshares, iron hoes, iron knives, axes, chisels, saws and awls, cast-iron pots, and even toys.
The Chinese also developed methods for the manufacture of steel that were only matched in the West, in the recent period. The characteristics of iron alloys are related to the carbon content. Cast iron generally has a high carbon content, which makes it strong, but brittle. Steel, which is an alloy of iron with a low carbon content, is strong and more durable. The use of steel in agricultural implements was introduced, on a wide scale, during the Tang Dynasty (618-907 A.D.). This led to a further improvement in productivity.

In the Second Century B.C., the Chinese developed what became known in the West as the Bessemer process. They developed a method for converting cast iron into steel, by blowing air on the molten metal, which reduced the carbon content. In 1845, William Kelly brought four Chinese steel experts to Kentucky, and learned this method from them, for which he received an American patent. However, he went bankrupt, and his claims were made over to the German, Bessemer, who had also developed a similar process. "
-Iron and Steel in Ancient China
Donald B. Wagner

I think that's the source. I'm not positive on it though. So high output of steel can come from a non-European origin in this hypothetical setting.
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Post by K »

Judging__Eagle wrote:
K wrote:
fectin wrote:Clever. How do you learn enough Indian history to do that without being offensive?


Slightly related: Steampunk Central Africa: awesome setting or racist landmine?
Landmine.
Any advice on how to not make it a landmine though?
The problem with landmines is that you don't know where there are except in the most general sense. Even if you are careful, chances are good that you are going to touch something off.

That being said, leaning hard enough into the fantastic elements can make that issue less noticeable. For example, the game Dominions 3 has an African-ish nation that rides giant spiders and it doesn't come across as racist because it's a pretty far deviation from any recognizable African nation in the real world.

Of course, after you've leaned into the fantastic elements, the real question was why you wanted the real-life elements in the first place? Stealing the fashion and mythology is an obvious answer, but that means that you missed the opportunity to create someone new and unique instead.

In short, why model anything after the awful history of a real-world continent for a fantasy setting when you can just have dark-skinned steampunk guys with a unique culture/fashion/mythology?
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Post by erik »

Yah. The big selling point for using historical settings is that everyone already has some common starting knowledge. If you aren't benefiting from that then may as well start from scratch.

Figure out what common knowledge you are going to share would be a good point to see if you have a useful venture on your hands. If that common knowledge seems racist, then thar be landmines.
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Post by Username17 »

Judging__Eagle wrote:
K wrote:
fectin wrote:Clever. How do you learn enough Indian history to do that without being offensive?


Slightly related: Steampunk Central Africa: awesome setting or racist landmine?
Landmine.
Any advice on how to not make it a landmine though?
You can't. See the bottom line is that when we make French or German or Russian expies for a fantasy game, that's kind of racist. Actually, it's just plain racist. There's really no way to boil down real people to genre tropes without leveraging racist stereotypes.

The reason why we go ahead and make the "like Italy" and "like Scotland" fantasy kingdoms is not because it isn't insulting to those people, it's because those people can take it. And they can take it because they are rich and privileged. We can prank on them, and they know that it isn't a prelude to taking away their right to vote or own property, so they can laugh along with it.

We can make all the dirty stupid Viking jokes we want, because the Norwegians are the richest people the world has ever seen, and Norwegian-based racist tirades are simply taken in stride. They know that there has literally never been as privileged a group in the history of the Earth as the Norwegians, so Norwegian racist jokes simply come off as ironically hilarious. It's like making "Yo momma's so poor..." jokes about Donald Trump. It's simply not hurtful, because wealth and privilege has made those people immune to those kinds of injuries.

On the other hand, Central African people are regularly denied access to food, shelter, and medical care, let alone citizenship privileges like fair treatment in a court of law, representation in government, or police protection. Saying racist things about Congolese or Luba people is really hurtful in a way that making fun of the Welsh simply hasn't been for over two hundred years.

This is why you knew that "World of Darkness: Gypsies" was going to be wholly unacceptable no matter what was in it. We actually don't have to read the contents of that book to know that the book as a whole is a hate crime. Now, if you actually do read it you'll find yourself regularly seeing red and wanting to vomit because it's really really bad. But the fact is that it's literally impossible to introduce racial stereotypes of marginalized people and have that not be offensive and horrible.

Now I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "Hey, if we can't talk about marginalized colored people in RPGs, doesn't that contribute to their marginalization by reinforcing the Eurocentrism of our discourse?" And the answer of course, is yes. It's a big problem.

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Post by Mask_De_H »

So isn't the answer to do your homework and make a strong, culturally rich setting based on things like the Kingdom of Mali, thus awakening the world to the wonders of the cradle of civilization?

There's enough cool shit that you wouldn't have to play to stereotypes, nor should you.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by Username17 »

Mask_De_H wrote:So isn't the answer to do your homework and make a strong, culturally rich setting based on things like the Kingdom of Mali, thus awakening the world to the wonders of the cradle of civilization?

There's enough cool shit that you wouldn't have to play to stereotypes, nor should you.
Yeeeah.

Look, Teeuwynn is genuinely proud of her work on World of Darkness: Gypsies. She thinks that by creating a book where Romani people are portrayed as a semi-mystical race of quasi-humans who get special powers that let them steal things by keeping their blood pure and not interbreeding with White people that she is somehow honoring their rich and distinct culture and heritage. Really. That is not a joke. She really thinks that.

I think that if you create a fantasy group that takes some number of elements from a real culture or ethnic group and scrubs off some non-zero number of other elements of the same group in order to make your fantasy setting work, that you are at that point stereotyping those people. The simple act of flattening them so that you can make a canvas that you can paint fantasy elements on is necessarily the act of stereotyping. And if you're doing that to a marginalized group, you're "piling on" with some very very ugly history.

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Post by Fuchs »

Racism is ok if it is against rich people? Even though even the richest land has poor/miserable people?

Fuck this hypocrisy.

If you are afraid to use history as a source for ideas, plots and rpg settings just because you think you could offend someone then you're around the bend. Anything you do is offending someone somewhere. Religious nutcases will be offended about devils and demons and magic, for one.
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