Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Rawbeard]

An archetype will take care of that. Yes, really.

But there are also archetypes that make the fighter usable or the monk awesome. Doesn't change the base class being stupid, broken or plain unusable. Even archetyped Slingers don't need to bother at higher level without alchemical cartriges. An item to fix your scaling issues. Not good design at all.

And Grit is still pretty much useless for anyone but the Pistolero and he will stop caring once his pewpew damage thingy is reduced to 0 cost. On my Musket Dude I literally only use grit to clear out missfires.

[Username17]

Weirdly, the "too many abilities" people have never been about how many total abilities you had, just on how many abilities were literally in your class description. The Cleric has more abilities than the Monk even on a daily basis by his spell slots alone. And yet the "too many abilities" people won't shut up about the Monk even now.

-Username17

[Rawbeard]

It's so sad to see someone come out with his monk and go "Is this overpowered?". I just want to hug them and say "You gave it your best shot, be proud of that." Everything else just feels way to mean.

[Avoraciopoctules]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-f ... od-monster

How good is this feat? I like thought of deploying movanic devas at higher levels, but I'm not sure about the lower level stuff.

[Username17]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-f ... od-monster

How good is this feat? I like thought of deploying movanic devas at higher levels, but I'm not sure about the lower level stuff.

Well, it's actually quite terrible for most levels.

Pseudodragon is probably the winner for Summon Monster 2, it has a Sleep Poison on its stinger. It'll drop a few Save or Dies along the way. At Summon Monster 5 you get an Azata who can drop a couple of 6 die lightning bolts, which is better than you'd get from direct damage, but nothing to write home about.

You're still basically boned by the fact that summoned monsters don't last very long. Some of the Summon Monster 3 offerings can cast commune, but they can't because that spell takes 10 minutes and Summoned Monsters don't persist long enough for that to be a thing.

-Username17

[Rawbeard]

The level 1 list is so awesome I don't know why they even bothered writing it down. But otherwise it does improve your options, from summon monster 4 onward there are some cute things you can do. Worth it? Once you can Planar Bind everything and anything it will not matter. It does reduce GM intervention though.

[hogarth]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-f ... od-monster

How good is this feat? I like thought of deploying movanic devas at higher levels, but I'm not sure about the lower level stuff.

It's nothing to write home about, but fauns/grigs/pseudodragons make more intelligent trapfinders and all-around flunkies than small elementals do.

You're still basically boned by the fact that summoned monsters don't last very long. Some of the Summon Monster 3 offerings can cast commune, but they can't because that spell takes 10 minutes and Summoned Monsters don't persist long enough for that to be a thing.

Fun fact: Pathfinder accidentally* dropped the sentence where it says that SLAs have the same casting time as the underlying spell; all it says in Pathfinder is:

Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action. Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity.

*Unless you're Sean K Reynolds, whose standard argument is "Everything in Pathfinder is intentional, even the unintentional stuff!"

[Avoraciopoctules]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy. There is a proviso keeping you from using summoned glabrezu for wishes, sadly.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-f ... -summoning
Assuming you sink 3 feats into this, what are some good choices for summoning 3 (1d3+1) monsters at a time? Summon monster 7 for 3 Shadow Demons or Succubi sounds pretty sweet on paper, but at that point things have pretty much spiraled into crazytown already.

If you can convince Mister Cavern to let your Cleric of Asmodeus to get his splatbook bonus of summoning hellhounds 2 spell levels early, that's definitely powerful, but it relies on too much MC fiat to be a sure thing.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I glanced through the Pathfinder forums, and apparently consensus is that a Summoner's SLA version of Summon Monster does benefit from Augment Summoning and like feats. No metamagic allowed, but it's extended to last 1 minute per caster level anyways. You can also boost your eidolon if you specifically summon it with this spell:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spell ... on-eidolon

So, if you're willing to give up full spellcasting progression, channeling, and better combat abilities, you can take a class that boosts your combat summons to be reasonably competitive.

[sabs]

Except that the Summoner spell list is the best of the best of the buff summon spells, and a lot of times they get those spells at the same time as their wizard counter part, even with the weird spell progression.

They also get access to haste, and stoneskin and some others at lower spell levels than their counter parts. Which means, that you can actually MAKE potions of stoneskin as a summoner, which noone else can.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Sweet! I haven't actually played a Summoner past low levels (where I was a Grease+Bloody Skeleton+ubercharger cat Eidolon triple threat), so I hadn't looked at the buff spells available at higher levels much.

So around level 5-6 you get Haste? Does that synergize with Pounce? It'd be pretty nice if you could summon a bunch of cats and give them all another hit on their charge combo.

[Archmage Joda]

An archetype will take care of that. Yes, really.

But there are also archetypes that make the fighter usable or the monk awesome. Doesn't change the base class being stupid, broken or plain unusable. Even archetyped Slingers don't need to bother at higher level without alchemical cartriges. An item to fix your scaling issues. Not good design at all.

And Grit is still pretty much useless for anyone but the Pistolero and he will stop caring once his pewpew damage thingy is reduced to 0 cost. On my Musket Dude I literally only use grit to clear out missfires.

Hold on, what? What archetypes are these? Make the fighter usable? Make the Monk awesome? Seriously, which archetypes are you talking about there?

[Avoraciopoctules]

If you mix Hungry Ghost and QingGong monk archetypes, you can bag-of-rats your way into having unlimited self-healing and access to a few SLAs.

Or just Hungry Ghost for refilling Ki between each fight and turning that into moderate number increases.

[Rawbeard]

I'm not even talking about infinite Ki. Zen Archer for example is stupid good. Not Wizard good, don't get me wrong. Dishes out the hurt like it promises and you have to try to be bad at it, since the archetype gives you everything you need.

And both monk and fighter get crazy when they overspecialize in combat maneuvers. And both have archetypes that let them do it at the expense of shit that nobody cares about, or shit that matters for the first few levels. Being able to fail a CMB check at a 1 only is pretty sweet, and yes, I mean versus actual monsters, not some humanoid with npc class levels and no items. Having a CMB between 30 and 40 around level 7 breaks the game in half.

On the other hand it's fun to see those who try to specialize in CMB and don't take those archetypes. "OMG, the entire previous scenario I was useless, couldn't make a successful check at all" *giggle*

Unfortunatly I don't care enough to remember which archetypes they use for more than 5 minutes, so go to the Google and search for trip and grapple builds.

Those things are so niche, it still does not make the classes worthwhile overall.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Really....

That sounds pretty awesome. Could you provide some more details about how I build a PC who can suplex a dragon?

Zen Archer's cool too, but I wanna hear about luchadore potential first.

[Rawbeard]

I will see if I can find the crazy fighter guy, or the monk. Haven't met them in a while and am terrible with names.

I might also be able to get a magus build that does +40 trip severel times per round at level 7. Shit is crazy. He doesn't do any magus stuff, just uses the class to get insane trip bonuses through arcana and whatnot.

There is some luchador fun to be had if you know how to combo your class, archetype, feats and items. Folding dragons midair into pretzels might actually work.

[Ghremdal]

Or Crane style grapple/natural weapons barbarians.

[GâtFromKI]

I'm not even talking about infinite Ki. Zen Archer for example is stupid good. Not Wizard good, don't get me wrong. Dishes out the hurt like it promises and you have to try to be bad at it, since the archetype gives you everything you need.

How is the zen archer better than a core ranger ?

[Rawbeard]

Way more attacks. And get's a couple more bonus feats, does not need certain feats. It's not much, really. But considering it needs a ridiculous archetype to bring him on par with core ranger, one is still allowed to be sad.

[GâtFromKI]

Way more attacks.

Only at high level.

At level 2, they have the same attack sequence. At level 6, both gain an iterative attack, and the ranger gains manyshot, which is essentially an other attack at max BBA. At level 8, the monk gains an other attack (at -7), and he is still not on par with the ranger with manyshot...

...

...

And finally at level 15 his attack sequence is on par with the ranger !

... Except nobody cares, since at that point everybody reroll for a full-casting-class and win Pathfinder.

[Rawbeard]

I'm not sure what you a trying to argue here. But ok..

So the Ranger has the same amount of attacks, one of them gimped, and no option to fire a hasted arrow for no reason, after picking up two feats. Isn't that precious!

Sigh.
Me "the monk is pretty much shit"
You "the ranger is totally better!"
Cleric "who gives a shit"

[GâtFromKI]

I'm not sure what you a trying to argue here.

I try to understand why the zen archer is considered as very good on some forums. I agree that comparing zen archer and ranger is like arguing about a parasport competition.

Why can't a ranger makes use of haste attack?

[Avoraciopoctules]

3 level 7 PCs are heading into a dungeon inhabited by kobolds. It's a mountaintop keep built on a power site that lets the master control local weather and summon flying monsters to be minions.

Any good encounters spring to mind? I've thought of a few traps, but I'd like to keep things interesting.

[virgil]

Not many people even remember the urd, so it'd be a nice surprise for them to pop up.

[tussock]

Dwarf Fortress says have them step on a pressure plate that opens two floodgates, one to let high-pressure water into their tunnel and another that lets it outside. Invaders are spit out to the surface bruised, chocking, and stunned for the flying/in-cover archers to plink away at for a while.

Of course, Dwarf Fortress also says drop a box-trap on their asses, carry them inside it to the pitting site, and open the bottom on it to drop them into the slow-fill drowning chamber. With a half-starved, naked, very angry cyclops who's learnt to hold his breath really well for company. And drop rocks on anyone who tries swimming. Also Magma. Then magma+water = your fire-resistant ass encased in solid rock, so good luck getting raised.

And if he can control the weather, why not have it rain acid on them? Or acid that gives them a Con-drain vomiting disease. Or where the western part is full of Zombies who just keep getting back up, in case you're wondering why all the doors are locked around there.