How many monsters does a D&D edition need to start with?

[Kaelik]

Secondly, why even ask the guy who can cast divinations? Why wouldn't a made-up book with entertaining lies lodge itself more firmly in the minds of people than a book limited to the truth?

Very true. Most people get their information from entertainment as opposed to actual factual textbooks. In the D&D world, bards and other storytellers are going to be the chief source of information, not sages.

No one cares what the common people believe, we are talking about what people who study material believe. If there are a bunch of books of bullshit lies about, for example, Dinosaurs, that doesn't change the fact that the Wizard who has knowledge ranks didn't learn from entertaining kids books, he learned from scholarly material, which, hey, totally has a good reason to come from scholars, who don't have much to gain from writing books full of lies that powerful people will find out are lies and hold a grudge against them.

[K]

... scholars, who don't have much to gain from writing books full of lies that powerful people will find out are lies and hold a grudge against them.

You don't know much about how academic publishing works, do you? Or the history of academic fraud?

That being said, I'm not really sure that powerful spellcasters are going to put off the oncoming githyanki invasion to punish some third-rate charlatans who penned some dodgy books that ended up in a library. Pretty much the definition of being a powerful spellcaster means that you have more important and/or fun things to do.

[Kaelik]

... scholars, who don't have much to gain from writing books full of lies that powerful people will find out are lies and hold a grudge against them.

You don't know much about how academic publishing works, do you? Or the history of academic fraud?

That being said, I'm not really sure that powerful spellcasters are going to put off the oncoming githyanki invasion to punish some third-rate charlatans who penned some dodgy books that ended up in a library. Pretty much the definition of being a powerful spellcaster means that you have more important and/or fun things to do.

You seem to be operating under some crazy idea that adventurers will take advice from books written by level 1 scrubs who have never done anything and don't matter instead of reading Elminster's Compendium of Drow.

Yes, in real life, theoretically, anyone can write a fraudulent article, and then they will be found out much later. But in D&D, no one cares what level 1 experts say about Balors, because level 1 Wizards can just swing by the library of Boccob that was assemble of the greatest books written by actual Wizards and Clerics who used spells to specifically ask Boccob about monsters.

I really have no idea why you think they will instead read Bob's light reading, from Bob the Guy Who Has Definitely Never Left the City And Is Level 2.

[K]

... scholars, who don't have much to gain from writing books full of lies that powerful people will find out are lies and hold a grudge against them.

You don't know much about how academic publishing works, do you? Or the history of academic fraud?

That being said, I'm not really sure that powerful spellcasters are going to put off the oncoming githyanki invasion to punish some third-rate charlatans who penned some dodgy books that ended up in a library. Pretty much the definition of being a powerful spellcaster means that you have more important and/or fun things to do.

You seem to be operating under some crazy idea that adventurers will take advice from books written by level 1 scrubs who have never done anything and don't matter instead of reading Elminster's Compendium of Drow.

Yes, in real life, theoretically, anyone can write a fraudulent article, and then they will be found out much later. But in D&D, no one cares what level 1 experts say about Balors, because level 1 Wizards can just swing by the library of Boccob that was assemble of the greatest books written by actual Wizards and Clerics who used spells to specifically ask Boccob about monsters.

I really have no idea why you think they will instead read Bob's light reading, from Bob the Guy Who Has Definitely Never Left the City And Is Level 2.

How do you know which books were written by powerful Clerics and Wizards? Answer: unless you've seen the actual person in action and could know that it wasn't a guy with some scrolls or other magic items, then you can't. You rely on hearsay and rumor because powerful wizards and clerics are the most likely to have defenses from divination, some which might last after death in order to protect their remains.

How many spells would it require to fact-check even a single breezy 100,000 word tome? Answer: too many for the life-time of anyone but a Lich. Spell slots do have per day limits and fact-checking an entire book might take decades of time from a powerful spellcaster who could be doing anything else, and then additional decades of time from another spellcaster to check the first guy's work.

How many powerful clerics and wizards are writing books instead of playing in their succubus harem, ruling nations, righting great injustices, exploring nearly infinite planes of unique and awesome experiences, or otherwise being powerful clerics or wizards? Answer: too few to matter.

How many powerful monsters are going to actively find and destroy books with true knowledge? Answer: all the ones that matter. Dragons, demons, illithid, shapechangers, liches, and many, many others have plenty of incentive to make sure that the Library of Boccob suffers a semi-annual fire in the Monster Ecologies section.

DnD Land is a brutal world where the Enlightenment is never going to appear because there are too many powerful parties with incentives to keep even their peers ignorant. True knowledge in the hands of churches is going to be treated like most true knowledge held by churches: hidden away for only a select few just like the Vatican does with all of it's records.

[Username17]

I guess what I had in mind is along the lines of "what if a player wants to make their PC using a monster" -- if they're not governed by the same rules, that's gonna make things a bit wonky (unless you print 2 versions of each "playable" monster -- Team Monster version and the PC version; but that has its own problems).

Well, yes. Just as the human guardsman #3 is a much less capable and much simpler character than Franzibald the human player character wizard, one would expect that the named player character draconian paladin or wererat assassin would presumably be more complex and capable than a mook of their respective species.

The big difference of course is that while Elf Mook #7 doesn't actually get that much for being an Elf, the Wererat gets to regenerate and turn into a rat and stuff, and the Draconian gets to fly and breathe fire. These are actually kind of a big deal and much better than the perception and woodcraft bonuses that Aetherwynne is getting for being an Elf. In a perfect world, the player characters would have subclassing or magic item slots or some other semi-intangible but spending resource with which they could buy monster templates and the powers they come with. Using level minimums and magic item slot sequesters, you could imagine a player character being a Draconian Paladin without overshadowing the Halfling Rogue in raw power. Heck, you could even potentially take such a system as far as letting players play Medusas.

But there is still obviously going to be a line. There's nothing stopping a boss monster demon from being a flying stone poison spitting demon, but obviously player characters are eventually going to run out of magic item slots (or whatever) to spend. And there are still going to be oozes and golems who don't even "make decisions" and thus cannot be player characters under any circumstances. There will be monsters that are too powerful or too bullshit to be in player hands with whatever system you have.

Obviously, I personally would prefer D&D to move forward in a fashion where in a sufficiently high level game I could bring out a Frost Giant Shaman or a Medusa Necromancer and have that be a balanced choice. I think that with solid enough systems based on large enough sample sizes of challenges that this could actually happen. But realistically this is a much less pressing goal than allowing Elf Wizards and Dwarf Paladins to keep playing the game together at those same levels.

-Username17

[Archmage]

DnD Land is a brutal world where the Enlightenment is never going to appear because there are too many powerful parties with incentives to keep even their peers ignorant. True knowledge in the hands of churches is going to be treated like most true knowledge held by churches: hidden away for only a select few just like the Vatican does with all of it's records.

What? Whaaaaat? Examples aside, are you seriously claiming that the Vatican is actually concealing serious material, like the knowlege of the kitten-eating reptilian humanoid Nazi occultist conspiracy, or something?

If you're going to presume powerful entities in D&D-land armed with Divinations that want to suppress information, I am fully willing to propose counter-suppression efforts and so forth. No one fucking cares where you got your data, the point is that when you make a DC 30 Knowledge check you know all kinds of shit about Dragons or Demons or whatever it is that you're Know-checking, and the assumption is that your info came from reliable sources, not Trogdar's Book o' Monsters which is full of misinformation and garbage, because you got a 30 on your check result.

[ishy]

There will be monsters that are too powerful or too bullshit to be in player hands with whatever system you have.
-Username17

But with abilities like charm monster, shouldn't you account for the possibility of any monster fighting on team PC?

[wotmaniac]

There will be monsters that are too powerful or too bullshit to be in player hands with whatever system you have.
-Username17

But with abilities like charm monster, shouldn't you account for the possibility of any monster fighting on team PC?

That's a temporary thing that really just turns in to which individual gets murdered last -- and it doesn't really warrant changing the mechanics of how that creature gets ran .... and it still gets ran by MC (which means that it still needs to be simple), nor is it going to become a permanent party member where one of the players actually plays the creature.

[OgreBattle]

There will be monsters that are too powerful or too bullshit to be in player hands with whatever system you have.
-Username17

But with abilities like charm monster, shouldn't you account for the possibility of any monster fighting on team PC?

Maybe charm monster shouldn't be usable on boss monsters that are stronger than the party members.

[Omegonthesane]

There will be monsters that are too powerful or too bullshit to be in player hands with whatever system you have.
-Username17

But with abilities like charm monster, shouldn't you account for the possibility of any monster fighting on team PC?

Maybe charm monster shouldn't be usable on boss monsters that are stronger than the party members.

Will saves. Mind Blank if all else fails.

And it's of some worth to nitpick Charm Person, as it's the weakest version of "Enemy changes sides" and thus the most likely to come online at a time when outright fuck-you counters to it are Gygaxian bullshit. Dominate it is not.

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

If your "trusted friend and ally" has just kicked down your front door and is flanked by a band of murdering hobos, your reaction is not likely to be to tell your minions to stand down and be butchered.

[MGuy]

If your "trusted friend and ally" has just kicked down your front door and is flanked by a band of murdering hobos, your reaction is not likely to be to tell your minions to stand down and be butchered.

Or you could use charm person in a way that's not as retarded as possible.

[Omegonthesane]

If your "trusted friend and ally" has just kicked down your front door and is flanked by a band of murdering hobos, your reaction is not likely to be to tell your minions to stand down and be butchered.

Or you could use charm person in a way that's not as retarded as possible.

To make explicit the assumptions I had in mind - the BBEG is in the room behind that door, surrounded by minions who are on their guard. You have access to only 1st level spells, because otherwise you'd be breaking out a more hardcore spell than Charm Person. How do you use Charm Person in a way that justifies completely breaking the encounter?

[tussock]

There will be monsters that are too powerful or too bullshit to be in player hands with whatever system you have.
-Username17

But with abilities like charm monster, shouldn't you account for the possibility of any monster fighting on team PC?

Maybe charm monster shouldn't be usable on boss monsters that are stronger than the party members.

I've been using that Charm Person (and similar stuff) only works on ordinaries. Turning them into your henchmen. PCs and leader-NPCs just take a small penalty-to-all instead. Henchmen and hirelings and companions and summons and Guards! and all sorts can change teams, but not your Paladin, and not the King or head Cleric you're chatting to.

There's ways around that (soften the mind; poison, skill use, whatever), but they're mostly high-maintenance and obvious at least to any leader-types watching.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

What? Whaaaaat? Examples aside, are you seriously claiming that the Vatican is actually concealing serious material, like the knowlege of the kitten-eating reptilian humanoid Nazi occultist conspiracy, or something?

Assuming that such a thing exists at all and the Vatican knows about it, yes. That's exactly the case. The Vatican Secret Archives is a thing that exists, and whatever they say is in there, since nobody but the Pope and a few of his Cardinals can get in, they can literally have anything they want buried in there. And over the last few decades, we've seen the Catholic Church has quite a bit they'd really prefer to bury.

If you want to say that anyone who wants to can become a powerful spellcaster and cast divinations to determine the truth of whatever matter you have in mind, then yes, lore will very likely be very accurate in your world. But that is a very uncommon position to take. Any world where most people are unwashed plebes who barely know their ass from a hole in the ground, then the water is going to be muddied by well-meaning idiots who know a lot less than they think they do, and conniving douchbags who want to make money off of people by pretending they know a lot more than they know they do.

[MGuy]

If your "trusted friend and ally" has just kicked down your front door and is flanked by a band of murdering hobos, your reaction is not likely to be to tell your minions to stand down and be butchered.

Or you could use charm person in a way that's not as retarded as possible.

To make explicit the assumptions I had in mind - the BBEG is in the room behind that door, surrounded by minions who are on their guard. You have access to only 1st level spells, because otherwise you'd be breaking out a more hardcore spell than Charm Person. How do you use Charm Person in a way that justifies completely breaking the encounter?

Let me rephrase this, because i's like you're asking me to use daylight to break an encounter with Orcs. I mean why would you use Charm Person to break an encounter that's already happening? That's not how charm person should be used.

[RadiantPhoenix]

How do you know which books were written by powerful Clerics and Wizards? Answer: unless you've seen the actual person in action and could know that it wasn't a guy with some scrolls or other magic items, then you can't. You rely on hearsay and rumor because powerful wizards and clerics are the most likely to have defenses from divination, some which might last after death in order to protect their remains.

You're a Wizard who presumably learned from a Wizard. Therefore you know at least one wizard.

If you learned at some sort of magic academy, you probably know a bunch of wizards.

Also, given that wizards can trade on being actual wizards who can bend reality, making a book about monsters is something that's probably only going to be done by wizards who actually want to make such a thing, not by those who just want money.

Or by people who aren't wizards, but since wizards presumably learn from wizards, this knowledge presumably gets passed down.

How many spells would it require to fact-check even a single breezy 100,000 word tome? Answer: too many for the life-time of anyone but a Lich. Spell slots do have per day limits and fact-checking an entire book might take decades of time from a powerful spellcaster who could be doing anything else, and then additional decades of time from another spellcaster to check the first guy's work.

No. Answer: One. Planar binding to have a high level outsider with a good knowledge skill (e.g. an Astral Deva or Trumpet Archon) spend a week or two reading the book and checking it for glaring flaws. (Assuming I'm interpreting Planar Binding correctly)

[Omegonthesane]

Planar Binding requires the author to be 11+th level, so they're already beyond mortal concerns - though their cohort might disseminate their findings to their followers if they have Leadership.

[Voss]

Sorry, what exactly are we trying to justify with this meaningless excursion into tinfoil hats and D&D?

[Kaelik]

How many powerful clerics and wizards are writing books instead of playing in their succubus harem, ruling nations, righting great injustices, exploring nearly infinite planes of unique and awesome experiences, or otherwise being powerful clerics or wizards? Answer: too few to matter.

How many powerful monsters are going to actively find and destroy books with true knowledge? Answer: all the ones that matter. Dragons, demons, illithid, shapechangers, liches, and many, many others have plenty of incentive to make sure that the Library of Boccob suffers a semi-annual fire in the Monster Ecologies section.

So all the monsters are waging an eternal war against Boccob, and there are no Clerics or Wizards of Boccob who would give a shit? Seriously K, I get it, you would personally live in a succubus harem if you had the option. No one disputes that. But it only takes one fucking guy who wants the knowledge to exist, which fuck, is the actual premise of people who worship Boccob, to make sure that you actually have that information available.

Your premise that zero high level people will actually spend time trying to make this information available is absurd.

And by the way, Evil Dragons are probably about 1000% more successful wearing a hat of disguise that changes their color than they are attempting to erase all information about Dragons from the universe, so no, I don't fucking buy that they are all trying so hard to erase that information, because a) they can't succeed if even a single fucking level 20 Wizard doesn't want them to, b) it is way the fuck harder than much easier methods of protecting themselves.

[K]

How do you know which books were written by powerful Clerics and Wizards? Answer: unless you've seen the actual person in action and could know that it wasn't a guy with some scrolls or other magic items, then you can't. You rely on hearsay and rumor because powerful wizards and clerics are the most likely to have defenses from divination, some which might last after death in order to protect their remains.

You're a Wizard who presumably learned from a Wizard. Therefore you know at least one wizard.

If you learned at some sort of magic academy, you probably know a bunch of wizards.

Also, given that wizards can trade on being actual wizards who can bend reality, making a book about monsters is something that's probably only going to be done by wizards who actually want to make such a thing, not by those who just want money.

Or by people who aren't wizards, but since wizards presumably learn from wizards, this knowledge presumably gets passed down.

But how do you know that any of them are powerful enough to have real facts?

Your teacher, academy, or local wizard social club could easily be level 1-3 wizards who are still desperate for gold and willing to write up fanciful treatise for gold. In fact, they almost certainly are because they have enough power to have an air of legitimacy, but not enough power to transcend the gold economy.

How many spells would it require to fact-check even a single breezy 100,000 word tome? Answer: too many for the life-time of anyone but a Lich. Spell slots do have per day limits and fact-checking an entire book might take decades of time from a powerful spellcaster who could be doing anything else, and then additional decades of time from another spellcaster to check the first guy's work.

No. Answer: One. Planar binding to have a high level outsider with a good knowledge skill (e.g. an Astral Deva or Trumpet Archon) spend a week or two reading the book and checking it for glaring flaws. (Assuming I'm interpreting Planar Binding correctly)

If you are a powerful enough Wizard to toss down those kinds of Outsiders, you are already powerful enough to make the same DCs of checks to find glaring errors. The outsider isn't even necessary.

You still have the issue of your fact-checking only being as good as the quality of a Knowledge check, something we already have strong arguments that suggest is not that great.

[K]

How many powerful clerics and wizards are writing books instead of playing in their succubus harem, ruling nations, righting great injustices, exploring nearly infinite planes of unique and awesome experiences, or otherwise being powerful clerics or wizards? Answer: too few to matter.

How many powerful monsters are going to actively find and destroy books with true knowledge? Answer: all the ones that matter. Dragons, demons, illithid, shapechangers, liches, and many, many others have plenty of incentive to make sure that the Library of Boccob suffers a semi-annual fire in the Monster Ecologies section.

So all the monsters are waging an eternal war against Boccob, and there are no Clerics or Wizards of Boccob who would give a shit? Seriously K, I get it, you would personally live in a succubus harem if you had the option. No one disputes that. But it only takes one fucking guy who wants the knowledge to exist, which fuck, is the actual premise of people who worship Boccob, to make sure that you actually have that information available.

Your premise that zero high level people will actually spend time trying to make this information available is absurd.

And by the way, Evil Dragons are probably about 1000% more successful wearing a hat of disguise that changes their color than they are attempting to erase all information about Dragons from the universe, so no, I don't fucking buy that they are all trying so hard to erase that information, because a) they can't succeed if even a single fucking level 20 Wizard doesn't want them to, b) it is way the fuck harder than much easier methods of protecting themselves.

For every follower of Boccob trying to spread knowledge, there is a follower of Vecna trying to keep it secret.

Yes, Vecna exists and is only one organization trying to keep knowledge about things secret. Add in various mystery cults, monster worship cults, competing academics, and various other assholes with reasons to keep knowledge down or muddled and true knowledge becomes very difficult.

Hell, your own "evil dragon with a hat of disquise" is an example of misinformation plugging up the channels of real facts. All it takes is one verified encounter and suddenly people start thinking that silver dragons can cast plant growth as a spell-like.

Second, you don;t need to hide the existence of a creature. Hiding true facts and spreading misinformation is more than enough.

[MGuy]

How many powerful clerics and wizards are writing books instead of playing in their succubus harem, ruling nations, righting great injustices, exploring nearly infinite planes of unique and awesome experiences, or otherwise being powerful clerics or wizards? Answer: too few to matter.

How many powerful monsters are going to actively find and destroy books with true knowledge? Answer: all the ones that matter. Dragons, demons, illithid, shapechangers, liches, and many, many others have plenty of incentive to make sure that the Library of Boccob suffers a semi-annual fire in the Monster Ecologies section.

So all the monsters are waging an eternal war against Boccob, and there are no Clerics or Wizards of Boccob who would give a shit? Seriously K, I get it, you would personally live in a succubus harem if you had the option. No one disputes that. But it only takes one fucking guy who wants the knowledge to exist, which fuck, is the actual premise of people who worship Boccob, to make sure that you actually have that information available.

Your premise that zero high level people will actually spend time trying to make this information available is absurd.

And by the way, Evil Dragons are probably about 1000% more successful wearing a hat of disguise that changes their color than they are attempting to erase all information about Dragons from the universe, so no, I don't fucking buy that they are all trying so hard to erase that information, because a) they can't succeed if even a single fucking level 20 Wizard doesn't want them to, b) it is way the fuck harder than much easier methods of protecting themselves.

For every follower of Boccob trying to spread knowledge, there is a follower of Vecna trying to keep it secret.

Yes, Vecna exists and is only one organization trying to keep knowledge about things secret. Add in various mystery cults, monster worship cults, competing academics, and various other assholes with reasons to keep knowledge down or muddled and true knowledge becomes very difficult.

Hell, your own "evil dragon with a hat of disquise" is an example of misinformation plugging up the channels of real facts. All it takes is one verified encounter and suddenly people start thinking that silver dragons can cast plant growth as a spell-like.

Second, you don;t need to hide the existence of a creature. Hiding true facts and spreading misinformation is more than enough.

K, by your notion, wizards should not exist. The act of learning wizardry would be the number one thing on the priority list of things to do who want to suppress knowledge. Not many people need to know how a bugbear functions and even with that knowledge people aren't that better off but learning how to cast spells is something that specifically makes people a threat to you. How is it that these people are so good at keeping the mating habits of Bulette a closely guarded secret while letting so many young spell casters slip through the cracks?

[K]

K, by your notion, wizards should not exist. The act of learning wizardry would be the number one thing on the priority list of things to do who want to suppress knowledge. Not many people need to know how a bugbear functions and even with that knowledge people aren't that better off but learning how to cast spells is something that specifically makes people a threat to you. How is it that these people are so good at keeping the mating habits of Bulette a closely guarded secret while letting so many young spell casters slip through the cracks?

No one cares if their servants have real knowledge and power. In fact, you want your servants to have both so that they are useful to you.

That's really the only reason to train people of any profession. It's also why there are professional organizations for lawyers and doctors, and why these professional organizations control the number of medical and law schools; true knowledge must be confined to the select few.

The only spellcasters who "slip through the cracks" are the few casters who get powerful enough to exceed their teacher and strike off on their own without dying. Like I said, it's a small number.

[shadzar]

How do you know which books were written by powerful Clerics and Wizards? Answer: unless you've seen the actual person in action and could know that it wasn't a guy with some scrolls or other magic items, then you can't. You rely on hearsay and rumor because powerful wizards and clerics are the most likely to have defenses from divination, some which might last after death in order to protect their remains.

You're a Wizard who presumably learned from a Wizard. Therefore you know at least one wizard.

If you learned at some sort of magic academy, you probably know a bunch of wizards.

hate agreeing with K but...

1. who says there is any magic academy? why is everyone Rincewind and nobody Sparrowhawk?

2. also as far as being taught, i stick with the old saying, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." this means the people that really know stuff are out there doing it, while the people that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground are the ones teaching based on writings they ASSUME to be correct. there isnt a teacher in this world compotent in his material or else he/she would be doing something with the knowledge other than passing on someone elses writing to people (or their own, see academic fraud mentioned earlier).

also being correct is well a Galileo routine. just because you are correct, doesnt mean you are allowed to share it. the king of clerics could be controlling the information to control the people.

then anyone with sense, and a wizard should ahve some, would understand "believe nothing you hear (read), and only half of what you see." i think this is the monster thread still so on the grounds of summoning a monster, it will be trial and error to see what you get. hell it is part of the reason magic items were in the DMG in older editions so people didnt play wishlist nonsense and had to experiment, because they was no handholding system or babysitters in D&D to make sure an adventurer didnt just fuck up and off himself.

[Voss]

That's really the only reason to train people of any profession. It's also why there are professional organizations for lawyers and doctors, and why these professional organizations control the number of medical and law schools; true knowledge must be confined to the select few.

OK, reality check time. 'The select few' has no meaning when the schools specifically push through more and more people in greater numbers every year to push their profits up, regardless of whether their are actual jobs available. And shall we start on paralegals and nurses? Obviously they have fake knowledge of law and medicine to, what? Kill people?

Over half my neighborhood (and it isn't a great neighborhood) works for hospitals, universities or some form of academic institution or firm. They have access to 'secret true knowledge' on a casual basis, even if they don't all take advantage of it. And there are actual industries based on nothing but making knowledge available. Your crazy ideas are just coming across as insane again.