Good and Evil in D&D

[silva]

Playing Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition here (Steam is killing me) and noticed something weird.

I was ambushed and found a letter in one of the bodies informing the following:
"Be it known to all of evil intent, that there is a bounty of 200 gold for the head of..."

Wtf ? "Be it know to all of evil intent" ? This doesnt make sense. Why would the people issuing the bounty write something like that ? Its like someone in real life writes a book entitled "Hacking for Evil Dummies" or something. This is the kind of D&D thing that breaks my immersion.

I mean, I know D&D (and Forgotten Realms) has in-world objective tools for detecting alignments like spells, powers, items, etc. but does this mean people actually talk like that in the world ?

like, "Oh com all over me!" and then "I cant, miss, Im lawful-good"

or yet.."Hey dude, Im Evil ok ? I admit, so save that detect alignment to other encounter.. Im from the Waterdeep guetto and I had to get a sword and do bad things or Id be seeing my wife and kids starving. I heard there are worlds where I would be Shades of Gray or something.. but the local cosmology says Im Evil... so wha can I do ? Im a victim, man.. a victim of the cosmology"

So, is it the game thats like that ? The setting ? Or people actually play D&D like that ?

[silva]

Elaborating a little bit more..

If this clear "evil/good" self-awareness is really true for the Forgotten Realms setting, then it may result in some weird behaviours, like Religion for example.

I dont know religions in the real world that consider their deities and values "evil". Even the traditional sickness and hunger deities also have healing and other good things in its "portfolio". And when there are exclusively "bad" deities of hunger, sickness, etc. these tend to only fill mythological roles and do not possess actual devotees and such. Another valid "evil cults" are the result of sincretism where a dominant civilization judges subjulgated beliefs as evil (Ie: Christianity vs African religions in some historical periods).

This concept sounds so artificial to me Im struggling to imagine how a society would behave in this way.

[Prak]

well... a number of deities which get equivocated to abrahamic evil/satan were actually deities of chaos or disorder, or general "we need something to represent the stuff which runs counter to what the heavenly grand pooba teaches." Often they were actually tricksters, with an actual in-myth function of teaching lessons. So Loki, or Set would totally have worshipers (the fact that real life polytheism had people giving devotion to all the gods in the pantheon helps there).

I'm actually kind of interested in this concept... Hell, it could play out similar to Fable, where your alignment has physical signs so everyone knows if you're a saintly hero or baby-murdering villain.

[Grek]

The thing to understand about the D&D alignment system is that it simultaneously embraces objective morality (actions can be reliably and verifiably classified as either Right or Wrong) and relativist ethics (it is OK to do Wrong instead of Right if you want to). This sounds weird because in real life people pretty much never subscribe to that particular combination of beliefs.

According to D&D religions, both moral wrongs and moral rights get you rewarded equally well in the afterlife by the Gods of Evil and the Gods of Good respectively. Evil worshipers of Evil Gods get magical powers, great riches and a happy afterlife just as often as Good worshipers of Good Gods do. The only question is whether you want your afterlife harem to be full of succubi or full of deva.

When you see a poster saying "Be it know to all of evil intent..." it means that they're looking to hire someone who is already going to Hell, is OK with going to Hell and wants to earn access to an even nicer part of Hell when they get there.

[Prak]

This actually makes perfect sense. It's like posting a job opening on Craigslist that says "Like the heat? Job opening in Death Valley!"

[Longes]

Elaborating a little bit more..

If this clear "evil/good" self-awareness is really true for the Forgotten Realms setting, then it may result in some weird behaviours, like Religion for example.

I dont know religions in the real world that consider their deities and values "evil". Even the traditional sickness and hunger deities also have healing and other good things in its "portfolio". And when there are exclusively "bad" deities of hunger, sickness, etc. these tend to only fill mythological roles and do not possess actual devotees and such. Another valid "evil cults" are the result of sincretism where a dominant civilization judges subjulgated beliefs as evil (Ie: Christianity vs African religions in some historical periods).

This concept sounds so artificial to me Im struggling to imagine how a society would behave in this way.

Worshipping evil deities makes much more sense when you remember that DnD gods actually exist and can reward you. IRL, a person who sacrifices kittens to Belial is probably mentally ill. In DnD land that person might get eternal youth, force lightning and a sword +1. It makes perfect sense to worship evil deities.

[Starmaker]

Silva,

we have a book about it. Fucking read it.

[shadzar]

the way you phrased this thread, may jsut answer your own question.

good...bad
good...evil

"...to all those of bad intent..."

dont really know the bualders gate series, but i think it is FR, and in it there is sort of a Salem Witch trial thing going on. it is often spoken of that Zentarum are evil. not sure if Mystra told the 7, or the Harpers are saying it... but it is a big religioys fight. i mean you have the drow, followers f the evil Lolth!

[Voss]

So, is it the game thats like that ? The setting ? Or people actually play D&D like that ?

Yes
and yes
and still yes.

Welcome to 20 years ago (once again).


I'm not sure why this is any way shocking: the FR has any number of unequivocally evil gods that are worshiped by actual people with actual temples. (The poisoners goddess, the torturer's goddess, the god of murder, the god of hunting people like animals and ritualistically killing them, and on and on. And yes there is a fair amount of overlap) And the BG series centers around one of those gods. People generally don't sign up with the God of Murder (literally the only aspect of the god is by definition illegally killing people) if they suspect they may be squeamish. Good people certainly don't. And they generally don't respond to adverts asking for some random person's head on a stick. Well, OK, this is D&D land so they do. But the good people usually want some sort of proof that the named person is evil, deserves it or is of an unsightly race.

And given that they actually do have objective measurement tools... why would they not react to it as if it were a real thing, and acknowledge that people are classed by good and evil? It would be stupid to act as if that weren't the case.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

The bounty is intended for people who are evil i.e. have no qualms about killing people purely for money. The bounty giver doesn't want to want to have to explain himself to people with morals.

[Stinktopus]

According to D&D religions, both moral wrongs and moral rights get you rewarded equally well in the afterlife by the Gods of Evil and the Gods of Good respectively. Evil worshipers of Evil Gods get magical powers, great riches and a happy afterlife just as often as Good worshipers of Good Gods do. The only question is whether you want your afterlife harem to be full of succubi or full of deva.

Gonna have to disagree with this one. I've always viewed the situation as, "Everyone who meets the base requirements of Good goes to a paradisical realm. Everyone except the penultimate rock stars of Evil are fresh meat in Hell."

Followers of Evil gods have either been sold a false bill of goods, or they are so filled with pride that they figure they can beat the system. "Satan NEEDS me, dammit!"

Even those rare souls who are so epic that the Dark Powers throw them a bone generally find out that it isn't all it was cracked up to be. CE's spend eternity in a mosh pit of ultra-violence until their soul is destroyed, and LE's get to spend eternity trying to contain the CE's until an ambitious underling/fearful superior soul-back-stabs them into permadeath.

It still makes no sense that capturing/destroying a powerful evil soul is, in itself, an evil act.

[Username17]

Gonna have to disagree with this one. I've always viewed the situation as, "Everyone who meets the base requirements of Good goes to a paradisical realm. Everyone except the penultimate rock stars of Evil are fresh meat in Hell."

Yeah, but it's a paradise where you get to be a fucking lawn ornament if you aren't one of the rock stars of Good. That's not an exaggeration, Lathander specifically turns all the lesser souls of good into grass.

-Username17

[nockermensch]

Gonna have to disagree with this one. I've always viewed the situation as, "Everyone who meets the base requirements of Good goes to a paradisical realm. Everyone except the penultimate rock stars of Evil are fresh meat in Hell."

Yeah, but it's a paradise where you get to be a fucking lawn ornament if you aren't one of the rock stars of Good. That's not an exaggeration, Lathander specifically turns all the lesser souls of good into grass.

-Username17

Becoming grass in Lathander's holy presence is a great honor, infidel.

[Prak]

Gonna have to disagree with this one. I've always viewed the situation as, "Everyone who meets the base requirements of Good goes to a paradisical realm. Everyone except the penultimate rock stars of Evil are fresh meat in Hell."

Yeah, but it's a paradise where you get to be a fucking lawn ornament if you aren't one of the rock stars of Good. That's not an exaggeration, Lathander specifically turns all the lesser souls of good into grass.

-Username17

Becoming grass in Lathander's holy presence is a great honor, infidel.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!

[shadzar]

more stupidty from Frank, who thinks you must follow FR canon and try to use everything from every time rather than say "Hey this is my game, and the 7 are off at a party with Mystra and lost track of time and nowhere to be found for the next 10 years. let's play!"

[Zaranthan]

It still makes no sense that capturing/destroying a powerful evil soul is, in itself, an evil act.

Souls that haven't been destroyed can be converted. Also, souls aren't typically smashed to bits for nothing, they're consumed for some sort of personal gain.

[silva]

The thing to understand about the D&D alignment system is that it simultaneously embraces objective morality (actions can be reliably and verifiably classified as either Right or Wrong) and relativist ethics (it is OK to do Wrong instead of Right if you want to). This sounds weird because in real life people pretty much never subscribe to that particular combination of beliefs.

According to D&D religions, both moral wrongs and moral rights get you rewarded equally well in the afterlife by the Gods of Evil and the Gods of Good respectively. Evil worshipers of Evil Gods get magical powers, great riches and a happy afterlife just as often as Good worshipers of Good Gods do. The only question is whether you want your afterlife harem to be full of succubi or full of deva.

When you see a poster saying "Be it know to all of evil intent..." it means that they're looking to hire someone who is already going to Hell, is OK with going to Hell and wants to earn access to an even nicer part of Hell when they get there.

TL;DR:

Its Gummi Bears and He-Man logic. In a game youre supposed to play a bearded axe-murderer.

[Voss]

The thing to understand about the D&D alignment system is that it simultaneously embraces objective morality (actions can be reliably and verifiably classified as either Right or Wrong) and relativist ethics (it is OK to do Wrong instead of Right if you want to). This sounds weird because in real life people pretty much never subscribe to that particular combination of beliefs.

According to D&D religions, both moral wrongs and moral rights get you rewarded equally well in the afterlife by the Gods of Evil and the Gods of Good respectively. Evil worshipers of Evil Gods get magical powers, great riches and a happy afterlife just as often as Good worshipers of Good Gods do. The only question is whether you want your afterlife harem to be full of succubi or full of deva.

When you see a poster saying "Be it know to all of evil intent..." it means that they're looking to hire someone who is already going to Hell, is OK with going to Hell and wants to earn access to an even nicer part of Hell when they get there.

TL;DR:

Its Gummi Bears and He-Man logic. In a game youre supposed to play a bearded axe-murderer.

Glad you're waving your ignorance around again. No, it isn't. The D&D alignment system has a shitload of issues and flaws, but it isn't saturday morning cartoon logic. Good isn't the answer to everything, nor does it always win. Evil can be one-dimensional failures, but there is also room for nuanced material. Hell, just having a concrete reason to be Evil beyond general mustache twirling is a step forward, as is having a reason to be consistently and coherently Good. (they completely drop the ball on atheism and neutrality, but that is a bit too advanced for you).

Mind you, you're actually a step ahead of shadzar in this thread, since a question about the setting yielding a response about the setting provoked incoherent monkey screeching about how being conformist is terrible and heartrending.

[Grek]

Gonna have to disagree with this one. I've always viewed the situation as, "Everyone who meets the base requirements of Good goes to a paradisical realm. Everyone except the penultimate rock stars of Evil are fresh meat in Hell."

Being sent to the upper planes is not particularly better than the lower planes. The Beastlands and Ysgard involve getting killed every day from now until forever. Bytopia and Arcadia involve being reincarnated as a commoner. Arborea is the same thing, but with extra Zeus-turning-into-a-goose-and-raping-you. Elysium is essentially a wetter version of Hades with swamps instead of deserts. Celestia is the only unabashedly nice afterlife, since that one involves getting turned into a level appropriate Archon and living on a mountain with other Archons.

It still makes no sense that capturing/destroying a powerful evil soul is, in itself, an evil act.

Killing an Evil person and sending them on to their Evil afterlife is a Good act. It keeps them away from innocents and sends the evil person on to their happily-ever-after where they will live a life they (presumably) enjoy. Preventing someone from going on to their afterlife is (usually) an Evil act, because it imprisons them in a gem instead of sending them to a happy afterlife. It is only justified if that Evil soul regularly departs from its afterlife to hurt innocents and there's no other way to stop them. Destroying a soul is usually right out.

[silva]

Thats the problem right there. The concept of alignments is so imbecile it only makes sense in saturday morning cartoons, and dont hold itself against any serious scrutinizing (and the disagreements Im seeing in this thread - and everywhere over the net - is proof of this).

Dont get me wrong, I dont see a problem with a setting where good and evil are objective and agreed upon things. I see a problem when such a setting lacks any sensible, organic, plausible, verosslimile extrapolation or treatment of this basic premise, resulting in a shallow, fake, artificial socio-psych environment. Ursula Le Guin and other speculative fiction authors are tired of taking alien premises like that and treating it in great ways. All the authors of Forgotten Realms manage to do is treat it like He-Man where Skeleton kill puppies and scream "MWA-HA-HA-HA" because he is Chaotic Evil.

Fortunately, Planescape Torment simply ignored that shit.

[Prak]

*Reads Silva's post*

*grabs popcorn*

This'll be good...

[Mistborn]

You know I sort of agree with silva's general point that D&D alignments are kind of derpy. Yet I still sort of want to defend them now just to be on a different side of the debate from silva because he's such a twatshitter. I now understand how everyone else must feel whenever I argue for the Den consensus.

[shadzar]

i said all i need to say on removing the 9 pockets and using a 2 axis alignment system in my thread somewhere around here.

yet people are still to stupid and prefer to do it the hard way, when the easy way is starting them in the face.

[Voss]

You know I sort of agree with silva's general point that D&D alignments are kind of derpy.

Of course they are. Most of us have known that for a long fucking time, which is why the general solution to D&D alignments is either ignore them completely or feed into them completely, and deal with issues that having objective good and evil brings up.

Fortunately, Planescape Torment simply ignored that shit

No, it didn't. It specifically (and often really explicitly) took the latter option and dealt with the issues raised by objective good and evil. That the game's focus was on a different thematic issue doesn't matter (though it often hits the issue as well, particularly with the Asshole Incarnation); all sorts of game elements revolved around good/evil (and even law/chaos).
The Lawful Good succubus wasn't just there for you to fap to, after all. And neither was the entire subplot about sliding an Outlands gatetown into whichever plane it was attached to.


And serious scrutiny? Well, no, not really. I'm not sure why a fantasy morality system would hold up to serious scrutiny when real, actual morality systems fall apart at their most basic levels. If you're looking to RPGs to solve serious philosophical questions for you, you're doing life wrong.

Plus there is a serious advantage to storytelling with exaggerated ideas. That guy who is kind of a jerk but didn't bother to take over the country and didn't really do any lasting harm while pursuing his not-particularly intense political goals isn't very memorable.

[TheFlatline]

Fortunately, Planescape Torment simply ignored that shit

No, it didn't. It specifically (and often really explicitly) took the latter option and dealt with the issues raised by objective good and evil. That the game's focus was on a different thematic issue doesn't matter (though it often hits the issue as well, particularly with the Asshole Incarnation); all sorts of game elements revolved around good/evil (and even law/chaos).
The Lawful Good succubus wasn't just there for you to fap to, after all. And neither was the entire subplot about sliding an Outlands gatetown into whichever plane it was attached to.

Amen. On one hand in Planescape it's totally feasible to hang with demons and devils and not get your face eaten, but Sigil especially always sort of had that Casablanca/Ricks Cafe vibe going on with it.

On the other the game intentionally plays a lot with the D&D tropes in entertaining ways. In a way, Torment is really, seriously *about* D&D morality. It just doesn't seem that way due to the rather unique situation The Nameless One finds himself in of having been there, done that already.

This Torment Numenera game is supposed to dive into the morality question even deeper supposedly. I'm curious to see how it works out.