Lago PARANOIA wrote:
The Agile enhancement meets all three, so I expect it to be allowed in the vast majority of Pathfinder games. There's a reason why 4E Dragon and 4E Dungeon were regarded as valuable sources of material. Rather than worthless piece of crap options tables will have to line-item veto like for pre-4E Dragon and Dungeon.
The main reason that Dungeon and Dragon were allowed in 4E was because the material was put in the character builder. When material reached a certain level of bloat, everyone started using electronic tools to keep track of it all and at that point it's just too much of a pain to start specifically banning individual things. So most 4E DMs just said you can use anything in the builder.
Given that agile is in the PF SRD, I suspect the majority of tables will allow it. The big appeal of Pathfinder is that whenever you don't know what something is, you can just google it, as opposed to 3E, where you had to remember what book it came from.
That also makes me wonder. Is it a good business decision to put all the extra rules you publish in a source book up online for free? I mean if you can find everything you need in the PFSRD including non-core material, so then why would you buy the sourcebooks at all?
Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Kingdom Hearts.
RadiantPhoenix wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".
The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".
hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.
Well, which would you say did better: the DnD books with all the content available for free online (www.d20srd.com), or any other DnD books ever?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Wiseman wrote:That also makes me wonder. Is it a good business decision to put all the extra rules you publish in a source book up online for free? I mean if you can find everything you need in the PFSRD including non-core material, so then why would you buy the sourcebooks at all?
It gives pirates one less excuse and might be enough to guilt them into actually buying books they want artwork for. I think it's mostly a good will thing and an extremely potent one.
Wiseman wrote:That also makes me wonder. Is it a good business decision to put all the extra rules you publish in a source book up online for free? I mean if you can find everything you need in the PFSRD including non-core material, so then why would you buy the sourcebooks at all?
As Pathfinder has shown, it works well. 3E had an SRD, which didn't stop the core books from selling well. Pathfinder has extended that concept to their entire product line and they're making money.
The main advantage of PFSRD is the accessibility. The thing with gaming groups is that they tend to default to the rules people own. So the reason D&D is so popular isn't necessarily that everyone loves it, but rather that everyone owns the D&D books. And every time someone wants to play Shadowrun or GURPS, you get a bunch of people saying they don't have the books, so everyone settles with D&D. Pathfinder solves that problem by letting new players access the rules for free.
That way everyone can show up to the session with a character premade and people can just play, as opposed to the waste of time character generation sessions where the people who don't own the books spend hours flipping through them looking at all the options.
Wiseman wrote:That also makes me wonder. Is it a good business decision to put all the extra rules you publish in a source book up online for free? I mean if you can find everything you need in the PFSRD including non-core material, so then why would you buy the sourcebooks at all?
Short answer, yes. Long answer, affirmative. Longer answer, a rant about piracy studies and monopolistic pricing in the entertainment industry, the tl;dr of which is that the lost sales effect is negligible and the increased exposure/market share effect is super great and would manifest in this particular case as easier access to introductory materials -> larger player base -> larger demand for materials.
As a purely personal anecdote, I own the first Pathfinder Bestiary as a direct result of Pathfinder's easy online availability. PFSRD decided what game we were going to play, and it's handy to have monsters readily available in a non-electronic format. With such a small, fragmented market, it pays to keep the barriers to entry extremely low.
Last edited by Redshirt on Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quite a lot of the answers suggested doing it to support Paizo.
Yeah, but many on stackexchange downvote you if you don't suck Paizo dick. (Still a great site, though).
However, I think Paizo publishes all that stuff to weaken competition. Obviously, there is a demand by players for a searchable online resource for PF rules. Because of OGL, if they don't publish it, someone else will (and drive clicks to another site).
Last edited by malak on Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cyberzombie wrote:As Pathfinder has shown, it works well. 3E had an SRD, which didn't stop the core books from selling well. Pathfinder has extended that concept to their entire product line and they're making money.
They have extended the principle only to rules, and that's why it's a great marketing decision: peoples still buy adventure paths and book about Golarion (which aren't free content), and it gives Paizo a very good reputation among palyers. And many peoples buy the rule books anyway.
malak wrote:However, I think Paizo publishes all that stuff to weaken competition. Obviously, there is a demand by players for a searchable online resource for PF rules. Because of OGL, if they don't publish it, someone else will (and drive clicks to another site).
Just to clarify, d20pfsrd is run by "someone else" and it does drive clicks to another site. Paizo's PRD is at paizo.com/prd.
So we combine this with Find Traps and there is literally no reason to play a rogue... ever.
Things a core rogue does that are important:
One of the few classes with trapfinding- No longer protected
Sneak attack for tons of damage- Nerfed into the ground
So if one were to be a Cleric with Trickery Domain and Trickery Channeling...
Bluff, Disguise, Stealth are class skills
Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Master's Illusion (Sp): At 8th level, you can create an illusion that hides the appearance of yourself and any number of allies within 30 feet for 1 round per cleric level. This ability otherwise functions like the spell veil. The save DC to disbelieve this effect is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier. The rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Trickery: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on Bluff, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks for 1 minute. Harm—Creatures gain a channel penalty on Perception and Sense Motive checks for 1 minute.
Then take Trap Finder, you've got a pretty awesome Rogue.
Or be a Ninja with Trap Finder and make a more roguish 'Rogue+1'
OgreBattle wrote:So if one were to be a Cleric with Trickery Domain and Trickery Channeling...
Bluff, Disguise, Stealth are class skills
Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one copycat at a time. This ability does not stack with the Mirror Image spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Master's Illusion (Sp): At 8th level, you can create an illusion that hides the appearance of yourself and any number of allies within 30 feet for 1 round per cleric level. This ability otherwise functions like the spell veil. The save DC to disbelieve this effect is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier. The rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Trickery: Heal—Creatures gain a channel bonus on Bluff, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks for 1 minute. Harm—Creatures gain a channel penalty on Perception and Sense Motive checks for 1 minute.
Then take Trap Finder, you've got a pretty awesome Rogue.
Or be a Ninja with Trap Finder and make a more roguish 'Rogue+1'
And you can use Divine Power, maybe, to also be a pretty cool fighter while you're at it. If Pathfinder hasn't nerfed that.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Anyway, the whole concept of "someone has to play a rogue because no other class can handle traps" is shit with shit flavor.
In the end, either traps are a complete waste of time, so you don't use them and the rogue is useless, either traps are really dangerous and someone plays a class he doesn't want to. D&D 3 has chosen the first solution, AD&D 2 has chosen the second one, and we all see that both solutions suck.
So, at last Paizo did kill a sacred cow which deserved to die. I think that is so far the only right design decision they took.
I think that's good, and sure, it's probably one of the better Traits, but let's face it, they range from "Cast some Cantrips" to "+2 to Initiative" to "+1 to Diplomacy checks". I mean, given the Rogue no longer Sneak Attacks things to death, and probably doesn't get Any Bonus Feat at level ten, and they probably also removed the Candle so they can't go "Tada! Today I'm preparing spells as a Cleric!", you definitely want other people to do the trap-finding thing: because nobody should be stuck playing a Pathfinder Rogue.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
It's not a matter of whether or not this was a good idea or not for the actual game. The interesting thing about that trait is it is a slap in the dick to Paizo players at large. You may not know this but the Pathfinder forums have constant "Rogue's aren't underpowered" threads. It is their version of Fighter Vs Wizard threads. With one side being factually correct and the other grinding their heels into the ground reaching for any argument they can throw over the course of thousands of posts. Those threads are an epidemic over there.
One of the Rogue lover constants was that you still needed Rogues for traps and no one could take that away from them. It is sort of like the old "What will you do in the early levels or in an anti magic field!?" from the Fighter Vs Wizard days. You hear it a lot. The release of that trait would be like if WoTC had, at the height of Fighter/Wizard angst, publicly sided with the Fighter crowd that Fighters were perfectly balanced and then released a feat that let casters gain full BAB.
It demonstrates a total lack of awareness on multiple levels. Paizils have declared they WANT Rogue's to have protected roles and be viable. The Designers have declared that that is how things are. Then they have released something you get for free that takes away one of the Rogue defenders final holdouts.
Last edited by Dean on Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.
OgreBattle wrote:
Then take Trap Finder, you've got a pretty awesome Rogue.
Or be a Ninja with Trap Finder and make a more roguish 'Rogue+1'
Another good trap finder would be the Inquisitor who gets 6 skill points a level, already has the class skills, most of those spells and can cast them more than once a day, AND gets to select domain bonuses on top of that. Also some sort of divine sneak attackish like gimmick
Yeah, the rogue's just flat out dead. They need to buff the shit out sneak attack or something.
Last edited by sake on Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
deanruel87 wrote:One of the Rogue lover constants was that you still needed Rogues for traps and no one could take that away from them.
...well, except for the Urban Ranger, the Archivist Bard, the Detective Bard and the Sandman Bard, to name a few.
The first Pathfinder Rogue guide that google gave me starts with the line: "Building a rogue who will make your other party members happy because she can fill her role of finding and disabling traps is easy." The second one I could find says: "Your ability to disable magical traps is unique to the Rogue, except for a few archetypes that grant the ability."
Don't ask me to explain WHY they can think of the ability as unique to the Rogue when you can change other classes to do it. I'm not the Paizchologist. I'm just telling you they DO. That the Devs making a trait that gives the Rogue's "unique ability" to every single character of any race or class in the game who chooses that instead of +1 to saves against confusion or a 5% refund when crafting metal-headed weapons is incompatible with also saying that the Rogue really IS the special snowflake everyone thinks.
EDIT: Also @sake The Inquisitor sucks now. He used to be really fucking cool with almost full blown sneak attack, 6th level spells, 3/4th BAB, 2 good saves, a d8 hit dice and strong class features. Now because people thought he was a "better rogue than the rogue!" he got nerfed to having an even more flaccid version of sneak attack that only effects creatures once per 24 hours and take a standard action to line up. He was the most interesting thing in their original packet and because the Rogue is their retarded mascot they fucked the Inquisitor into irrelevance. The Rogue
Last edited by Dean on Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.
OgreBattle wrote:So what's the method for pathfinder divine magic users to hit things for massive damage in a way superior to sneak attack?
A few domains grant Smite or something like Smite
and Evil or Neutral clerics could use the Channel Smite feat to add that damage to their melee attack against living targets. And if you went dumpster diving long enough I bet you'd find a feat that lets a cleric switch between positive and neg energy on the fly so you could use it on undead too.
