[OSSR]Epic Level Handbook

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:27 am

Prak_Anima wrote:I like the idea of the spell seeds in ELH, but it should be part of the game from first level as a guide to researching new spells, not a completely broken and stupid epic thing.

I do kind of like the idea that the Epic book is really just a monster manual where the monster is also the adventure.

There have been attempts to do that. The Iron Heroes Arcanist, for example. It's always been a terrible thing. And there are of course many reasons for that. The most obvious of course is that 3e skill results have little to do with character level even when people aren't cheesing it up. The RNG is huge compared to the level-based bonuses, and the optional level-independent bonuses are huge compared that the RNG.

But the more important issue is that context is king. No "seeds" can tell you how good a spell actually is, because seeds necessarily lack context. So consider that spell which makes a temporary block of wood to fill a square. That's a low level spell, and people don't take it because it's dumb. But imagine if the same spell created substantially less wood and surrounded a square for the same amount of time. Suddenly you have something that is damn near to as powerful as force cage. How could a "spell seeds" system possibly figure out that the spell that creates objectively less temporary wood is massively more powerful than the spell that creates more temporary wood?

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:54 am

By being complete and unabashed MTP that says "Sorry, we can't cover even 1% of the possible circumstances, so work with your DM, but at least here is a very rough guideline."

Sorry, I should have been more specific and said "Out of game" guide, or something. As it stands the entirety of a guide for spell research is "clerics and druids don't blast, wizards and sorcerers don't heal, compare to existing spells," and damage caps. The idea of spell seeds is a good one, but it's best implemented as more of an essay or short chapter on spell design theory and rough guidelines that addresses the existence of circumstances like the one you just brought up.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:29 am

No. The idea of spell seeds isn't a good one. It's a stupid idea that brings absolutely nothing to the table. "Compare to existing spells" is a thousand times more helpful than telling people to fuck around with energy and summon seeds. A pure energy effect or a conjuration could plausibly be a cantrip (light a candle or summon butterflies, for example), or it could be a near-epic spell (dragon slave or summon Shabranigdo, for example). The "seed" that creates these spells is no help whatsoever in determining the new spell's level, nor does it particularly add anything to determining the spell's effects.

It's an extra layer of complication that provides absolutely nothing. Remember that you've already got spells in the basic list that summon things, detect things, create things, and control things. So the seeds don't even act as a source of inspiration once you already have the instruction to look at the fucking already extant spell list.

For something to be a good idea, it would have to provide some advantage in some circumstance. Spell seeds don't do that. Spell seeds can't even theoretically provide an advantage under any circumstance.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:39 am

The concept, the very basic, essentially concept, of Spell Seeds, which I'm saying is a good idea is that they're the building blocks of spells. They are the essential essence of various types of effects. I'm not fucking talking about Spellcraft DCs or mitigating factors or "This is this level of effect" or any of that shit. I'm talking about "This kind of spell does these things." and maybe "at it's most basic it does [thing, probably a cantrip level effect]."

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:47 am

That's still not a helpful concept. Spells aren't made out of building blocks, and it wouldn't be helpful if they were.

Conjuring a short duration wooden block or short duration wooden ladder is a pretty weak effect. Conjuring a short duration wooden cage is a battle-winning effect. The third is not appreciably different in terms of any conceivable set of "building blocks," it just happens to have incredible battlefield utility that the other two don't normally have.

There is no set of "building blocks" you could make that would be more helpful for designing and assigning power levels to new spells than simply not having any building blocks. Name one piece of information you could glean about your new ice web spell from having spell building blocks that you couldn't get easier and better by just flipping through the spell list to compare to similar spells. Just one.

You can't fucking do it, because it's a stupid idea.

-Username17

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:48 am

Prak_Anima wrote:You really need the description to understand what's bad about Leshay:
Epic Level Handbook wrote:As elves are to humans, so are leShay to the elves (but more so): a race immortal, enigmatic, and exceptionally powerful.
LeShay look like tall, thin, albino elves, except that they lack the oversized ears of true elves (leShay ears look more like half-elf ears) and, while they have the glossy dead-white hair of true albinos, their eyes are pits of darkness. Some affect a particular color or style, while others change their outfits from moment to moment. All are deeply concerned with etiquette, decorum, and receiving the respect they feel due; failure to meet their standards of politeness, or simply crossing one of their whims, can often be fatal.
LeShay never die from age or disease; they perish only if killed. LeShay are the mere remnant of a once-great race whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the current multiverse and refer darkly to some catastrophe that not only wiped out most of their people but changed time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest past. Attempting to undo the catastrophe would apparently result in another disaster even more terrible, so the decimated survivors—less than gods but more than mortals—for the most part merely attempt to amuse them selves and stave off ennui as they work out their individual destinies.
LeShay have great facility at languages (as per the Polyglot epic feat) and can speak any language within seconds of hearing it spoken for the first time, right down to the most courtly or impressive accent thereof.

COMBAT
LeShay rarely initiate combat, since they prefer to react rather than act. However, their vast experience makes them shrewd judges of others’ capabilities and killed tacticians. Their gaze ability, in addition to their terrible weapons, make them feared opponents.
LeShay are also quick to utilize their spell-like abilities to prep for combat, or flee from it. No LeShay hesitates to run away from a fight that is going against him or her, only to return to the fray when the odds are more favorable, possibly years or even decades later.

And people wonder why Immortal Elves get so much hate in Shadowrun...

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:29 am

No LeShay hesitates to run away from a fight that is going against him or her, only to return to the fray when the odds are more favorable, possibly years or even decades later.

Blood vendettas. Are we sure these are not Warhammer Dwarfs?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:43 am

I think that's one of the few things about 4E D&D that's better than 3E D&D. The lack of elf fapping.

Of course, the lack of elf fapping is more due to original sin than any kind of editorial control; PHB elves didn't have the right stat array or feat support (until 4E D&D was almost finished) to excel in any of the magic classes and Eladrin were fucked from the start by being a +Dex/+Int race. But hey, less elf fapping.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:45 am

So, when will we get the next part of the review?

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:05 pm

If patterns hold true, about 9 months from now when someone necros the thread with a question.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:24 am

Prak_Anima wrote:The concept, the very basic, essentially concept, of Spell Seeds, which I'm saying is a good idea is that they're the building blocks of spells. They are the essential essence of various types of effects. I'm not fucking talking about Spellcraft DCs or mitigating factors or "This is this level of effect" or any of that shit. I'm talking about "This kind of spell does these things." and maybe "at it's most basic it does [thing, probably a cantrip level effect]."

Assuming you haven't done so already, you should seriously consider looking at Ars Magica's magic system.

I think what cracks me up about leshay is how fucking harmless they are. Seriously, they're supposed to be a CR28 creature that tops out around 5d10+60 damage if they get off a full attack. I wouldn't wipe my ass with that at 20th level, never mind 8 levels into epic.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:14 am

They have the Power Attack feat and make touch attacks. Not doing enough damage is not really the major problem

EDIT: Also, they have 3.0 Haste, so they can get a full attack if they can get to you at all. (Which they can't because they don't fly).

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:39 am

My "favorite" is the Mu Spore. It's CR 22 and it isn't even intelligent. Just a huge lump of plant HD.

Although I mostly used epic NPCs, classed/advanced outsiders and hordes of non-epic creatures, I re-statted a chunk of the monster chapter during the late stages of my last campaign. Off the top of my head, I did LeShay, Hoary Hunters, adamantine and mithril golems, prismatic dragons, Dream Larvae, flesh colossi and Primal elementals.

I might still have the stat-blocks lying around somewhere.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:19 pm

I finished Lord Of Light if anyone cares. That was fantastic.

I'd like to bump Lago's question because the only responses were examples of things that did not qualify.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So. What D&D or D&D-inspired viderojames have actually had epic-level campaigns/gameplay (or at least something that approaches epic) that's deliberately put in the hands of players and doesn't just exist in a cutscene?

I'll accept either an epic-level concept or epic-level game effects. I know that video games are inherently limited with what kind of special effects that they can show and moreover one of the hallmarks of epic-level play (open-endedness) are really hard to do on a cRPG. So I'll cut people some slack. Nonetheless, which games at least aspire towards doing so?

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:33 pm

I care. I'm happy for you.
I'll actually suggest something slightly more obscure next: either Mandwand or The Changing Land:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... d&sr=&qid=
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/ ... ition=used

Madwand is the second in a two-book series, but doesn't suffer for it. It does a great description of what magic actually looks like (the bit with forcing other casters to use your idiom is sublimely clever). Changing Land is basically a revenge quest in a surprisingly dnd-style land. Right down to ending with bartering over the cost of magic items. It's a great model for how DMFs could work, but don't.

As for epic level play - not much. The level editors that many games ship with are a much better example of epic level play than the games are.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:57 am

Thread bump because I just got Lord of Light a few days ago and the complete book of Amber just arrived.

I wanna say thanks for convincing me to read Lord of Light. It's great.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:15 am

I feel tremendously happy about everyone reading and bonding over Lords of Light. It's like some sort of Kryptonite shutting down all my powers of cynicism and nerd rage.

His Creatures of Light and Darkness novel is also an impressive and wonderful little novel. Also if you read through Amber I'd love to hear your impressions on the latter books in the series.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:23 am

They're good, but not as good, and the transition to Merlin happens with an audible clunk. I still enjoy them, but the decision to change from the noire styling Corwin with his greater experience and familiarity with the other characters to Merlin's tech savvy magic gunslinger...ness in the name of keeping with the times does it no favors.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:39 am

deanruel87 wrote:I feel tremendously happy about everyone reading and bonding over Lords of Light. It's like some sort of Kryptonite shutting down all my powers of cynicism and nerd rage.

His Creatures of Light and Darkness novel is also an impressive and wonderful little novel. Also if you read through Amber I'd love to hear your impressions on the latter books in the series.

My second favorite Zelazny novel is Night in Lonesome October. It is wonderful.

Amber was supposed to have third pentateuch, which didn't happen due to Zelazny's death

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:13 pm

The Merlin series was often described by friends in the Amber scene as reading like Merlin's own personal author-insert powergamer wank fantasy. Since RZ was usually a better writer than this, I have always assumed that the nonexistent third series would have recast the middle books in a new and less wanky light, but in their absence it's kind of ... meh.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:50 am

I just wanted to post this somewhere, and this seemed like the best place. We all know that Epic Spells are dumb, and that rituals are the dumbest part of this dumb system, however, assuming no rituals at all, here are some spells that cost 0XP, 0GP, and 0days to research/develop.

I'm assuming for the sake of argument that you have a thought bottle.

All spells have a permanent duration unless I specify they are instantaneous. All spells take 100 days and 20 minutes to cast, and are personal range only, though you could easily have non personal ones that might be slightly less effective.

Armor: +39 Armor bonus
Natural Armor: +39 Natural Armor
Other armor bonuses: +8 for as many types as you want to waste your time casting, explicitly Deflection, Divine, and Insight are called out.

DR 27/Epic
SR 39
+34 enhancement to each stat, each saving throw, SR, and Natural Armor

Cast in a mere 7 minutes or so, you can also have:
+5 Inherent Bonus to each save.
+5 Inherent Bonus to SR
+5 Inherent Bonus to Natural Armor
+5 Inherent Bonus to all ability scores (if you didn't already wish that)

I don't know what epic monsters look like in abilities or numbers, but I love the idea of a Cleric that just casts those spells, devotes every single spell slot to Divine Power and/or a few other minor buffs, but is just super unoptimized in terms of going all in on buff spells (IE no DMM Persist), and some True Seeings and Energy Immunities, and then just punches or swords things to death.

Aharon · Post by **Aharon** » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:04 am

What do you need the thought bottle for if the spells cost 0xp anyway?

For some monsters, this approach would be sufficient (the devastation beetle, CR50, mentioned in this thread has 2.880 hp (more than a couple of gods), a +104 bite attack that deals 25d10+24 damage, but can't fly, dispel, and is mindless. It's +104 bonus to hit wouldn't suffice to get through your AC.

Monsters that have spellcsating could probably cope with your tactic - demilich at CR29 could disjoin your buffs, or flee if it doesn't succeed at that.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:50 am

Demilich is one of the few that actually does have a bunch of powerful abilities even before you get to the bit where it's a big caster.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:51 pm

Aharon wrote:What do you need the thought bottle for if the spells cost 0xp anyway?

Each spell requires zero XP to develop, and therefore zero gold and zero time to develop as well. However, each spell uses 25,000xp in the casting, so you want to thought bottle yourself before you cast any of them, then cast them all, they regain xp. (Or regain XP after each spell cast if you don't have enough XP to cast them all).

Except the Inherent ones, those are free, because inherent bonuses are capped.

Lokey · Post by **Lokey** » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:36 pm

If you're using RAW, you should be a much better god than that before epic.

There's a couple high level psionic powers that are poorly enough written to do that, just shapechange into things that have them as abilities (fusion and reformation) and then write NI on every number on your character sheet after you've found enough poorly written monster abilities to borg (i.e. the nastier illithids that should be running the world because their abilities are insane).