[Non-US] News That Makes You laugh/cry/neither...

[Red Archon]

Lago: the problems with immigration really touch only some of the already fucked countries, like Greece and Spain, but there's a very powerful right wing racist/nationalist movement rearing all around Europe. It seems that every country by now has their own Sweden Democrats or similar bunch of loonies in power. Typically a party like this has absolutely no common themes or internal consistency, except, when push comes to shove, that they hate different colored folks. But of course we've always had skin heads and neo-nazis and whatnot; what's new is the scale.

A lot of it has to do with disappointment with the leadership after everything started to go to shits post Reagan. But instead of a coherent resistance against the right-wing libertarian bullshit economics, (note that most of these racists, too, are uneducated and stuck firmly in lower middle class for generations,) which are the actual problem, we found or were fed an easier common enemy: different colored people.

[Fuchs]

You're already doing the same thing that was done here - trying to claim every problem is the racist native's fault.

That's simply wrong. Whenever different cultures mingle, there will be some problems simply because of misunderstandings, but also because of different values. Things get compounded when social issues cause more problems.

People seeking political asylum. First, it's a fact that the vast majority of people seeking asylum in Europe are not, actually, politically persecuted in their home land. They come to make money, usually for their families back home. Often they paid a fortune to get smuggled into Europe. Until their asylum requests are processed through multiple instances they are housed.
To make it less appealing to come without being persecuted Switzerland prohibits people to work while their requests are processed.
Now - what do you do when you paid a fortune to come here, your family needs money back home, you may get deported back in the near future, you're sitting around all day for months or even years and you cannot work legally? You work illegally, or go criminal of course. And that does cause problems for the rest of the country.

Then there's legal immigration. Yes, there are the fear mongerers, but only a damn idiot would not think that there's problems if a country gets 1% of ist population as immigrants per year. 80'000 new people each year means building infrastructure on the scale of our 6th or 7th biggest city each year. We've started to get People like the tokyo subway pushers at some points to get people into the commuter trains on time.

And lastly, what the swiss voted on was to get an immigration system like Canada has - with quotas. They're talking about 45'000 per year or more. That would be on par with the USA, proportionally.

So, there are problems with immigration. Those problems are not as serious as many fear, but trying to dismiss them makes them worse. Placating those who fear foreigners with "measures" that are mostly placebos is a much better solution than trying to paint everyone who has issues with different moral values - some actually despicable, like the views on women many immigrants have - as a racist.

And yes, I do think that if we had had a system in place to placate the fears of the people in the 90s (schedule talks, mediate, make people meet each other, and yes - make foreigners conform to a number of key native customs), we'd not have a problem with fear of foreigners now. Ticino, our italian speaking canton, has voted most strongly for the new immigration law, with just about all parties in favor of it, officially or unofficially. And that's because for years, the canton has been ignored with its concerns and fears and real problems by the rest of the country.

[PhoneLobster]

You're already doing the same thing that was done here - trying to claim every problem is the racist native's fault.

You spouted almost verbatim nearly the entire racist fear monger's play book all by yourself.

You actually literally pulled the "[They] eat [animal I don't eat] and slaughter it in unhygenic and primitive ways! And they MIGHT be doing so just now RIGHT BEHIND ME! Some other racist dumb fuck told me so!" Could you be any more racist if you picked Chinese, dogs, and restaurants instead of the options you filled the blanks in on your ageless racist paranoia with instead? Do you REALLY think there is a SERIOUS public issue with people slaughtering goats in their flats? REALLY? Because what typically happens is a dumb fucker like you just points to some bit of racist propaganda which at best is a single instance EVER or more commonly didn't provably even happen so much as fucking once. It most certainly is NEVER of fucking serious concern to public policy.

You have fallen for the racist propaganda hook line and sinker, you are unironically and uncritically repeating it. Your bullshit moronic line claiming refugees are fake? ALSO ageless racist lies. They said that about the god damn Jews fleeing Germany. They are saying that here in Australia right now about the refugees fleeing to our continent in boats, even though it is easy to find the actual fucking facts, which are the vast majority of them both originate from actual fucking WAR ZONES and on top of that ARE found to be genuine refugees.

And not only that in our case brown refugees arriving by boat (the ones we inexplicably hate in a totally not racist way) turn out to be significantly more likely to be found to actually be genuine refugees than the white ones who turn up by plane (the ones we DON'T put in concentration camps under top secret media black holes).

And your different cultural values line. Yet again. utterly typical racist propaganda. I tell you what. Name the actual cultural conflict issue. The "Religious assholes call girls sluts" is, as it turns out not actually a cultural conflict because actually religious assholes of all cultures can, and do, regularly hold hands together in total unity while calling girls sluts. So... what is it about the nasty scary brown subhuman culture that scares your pants off and causes "conflict" actually name it I FUCKING DARE YOU.

[Fuchs]

You actually literally pulled the "[They] eat [animal I don't eat] and slaughter it in unhygenic and primitive ways! And they MIGHT be doing so just now RIGHT BEHIND ME! Some other racist dumb fuck told me so!" Could you be any more racist if you picked Chinese, dogs, and restaurants instead of the options you filled the blanks in on your ageless racist paranoia with instead? Do you REALLY think there is a SERIOUS public issue with people slaughtering goats in their flats? REALLY? Because what typically happens is a dumb fucker like you just points to some bit of racist propaganda which at best is a single instance EVER or more commonly didn't provably even happen so much as fucking once. It most certainly is NEVER of fucking serious concern to public policy.

PL, slaughtering animals outside licensed slaughterhouses is ILLEGAL here. Has been illegal for a long, long time. People take a dim view of neighbours breaking the law. It's not about chinese restaurants, it's not about dogs - hey, newsflash: Some of the most conservative people here actually do eat dogs out of tradition - it's about breaking the damn law. And it's not about "what some racist told me", it's stuff in the news.

You have fallen for the racist propaganda hook line and sinker, you are unironically and uncritically repeating it. Your bullshit moronic line claiming refugees are fake? ALSO ageless racist lies.

I have handled Immigration cases for years. I know how we investigate, how we check if People tell the truth. I have listened to "refugees" claiming to be from Liberia, fleeing the civil war, yet being unable to tell if their supposed home city, Monrovia, was at the coast or not. Yes, most People who arrive here claiming to be political refugees are not political refugees. They flee poverty, mostly.
We are not Australia. I can't tell what the refugees coming to Australia are doing, if they are genuine or not. But I can tell that those arriving here in Switzerland are mostly not political refugees.

And your different cultural values line. Yet again. utterly typical racist propaganda. I tell you what. Name the actual cultural conflict issue. The "Religious assholes call girls sluts" is, as it turns out not actually a cultural conflict because actually religious assholes of all cultures can, and do, regularly hold hands together in total unity while calling girls sluts. So... what is it about the nasty scary brown subhuman culture that scares your pants off and causes "conflict" actually name it I FUCKING DARE YOU.

Hey, PL - we don't have many religious nutcases here. They are a tiny minority. Matter of fact, we don't really take "our" religion seriously here. Churches are mostly empty if not for foreigners and weddings and some old People. I have met those people you claim do not exist. I've heard and read their views on women.

Yes, immigration causes conflicts. The conflicts are not as serious as many make them out to be, but only an utter idiot would try to deny that there are conflicts. And claiming everyone who has issues with their new neighbour is a racist is and has been the best way to push them into the arms of racists.

And yes, I do believe that if you come into a new country, as tourist or as an immigrant, you have to conform to the key customs there. That's simply being respectful and polite. If the new tenant below me is having loud parties at midnight, then I don't give a damn what his skin color is like, or where he is from, or whether or not his culture or religion allows such parties. Loud parties at midnight are not done here, period. It's against the law. But at the same time it's not a really serious conflict, and doesn't need to involve the cops. But if someone told me all the time that having issues with such noise in the night makes me a racist, then I'd likely start to think that other racism claims were similarly unfounded.

And that's, partially, what happened in my country.

[PhoneLobster]

And it's not about "what some racist told me", it's stuff in the news.

Really now. "Stuff in the news". You know. I can watch all kinds of "stuff in the news". It doesn't make it a fucking major public policy issue. All sorts of content free racist beat ups can in fact make it to "stuff in the news". Especially if you favor a conservative and commercial channels where racism predictably sells. Give me some fucking figures. How many goats are being slaughtered in flats? Where are the stories based on some sort of figure, some sort of actual public policy level issue instead of hearsay and paranoia and a few dumb racist fuckers telling stories of "one time at band camp someone totally fucking slaughtered a goat in their flat for realz!".

And yeah. Looks like you ARE in fact predictably pointing at one story of it happening one time at band camp... without even actually pointing at a story. Nice. Totally not looking like a racist fucker.

I have handled Immigration cases for years. I know how we investigate, how we check if People tell the truth. I have listened to "refugees"

Actual fucking figures or get the fuck out.

Hell, racist coward that you are you did not even risk committing to saying "in my professional experience they are mostly not refugees".

Racist anecdotal evidence from a guy already spouting every racist lie ever is totally fucking worthless.

As it turns out... Australia DOES have a high rate of boat people officially recognized as refugees, coming in about 9 out of 10.

But... hey guess fucking what you fucker... when looking at an article comparing our boat people recognition rate internationally...

Among the main refugee-receiving industrialized countries, in 2011 Switzerland had the highest Total Recognition Rate at the first instance of 72%

72% is hardly "most of them aren't genuine refugees!".

Hey, PL - we don't have many religious nutcases here.

You don't? How is it you had a far right party trying to ban minarets? They got 29% of the vote just around that time. THEY aren't religious crazies REALLY? They're trying to ban architecture for being insufficiently Christian and that isn't fanaticism? That vote was apparently approved in a referendum with 57% of Swiss voters opting to chuck the basic concept of humane secularism under the bus to keep their roof lines chaste and Christian.

What about the nearly 50,000 signatures gathered by Swiss Christians to demand the banning and replacement of a mere Swiss eurovision song entry for being "Satanic" in about the same way that Christian extremists think D&D is?

You don't have religious extremists my ass.

Meanwhile...

The report says that most Muslims in Switzerland are not religious; only 12% to 15% of Muslims in the country regularly attend a mosque. According to the study, Islam in Switzerland is neither homogenous nor monolithic; it is organized around multiple ethno-linguistic identities that rarely interact with each other.

The greatest barriers to Muslim integration are due to language, not religion, says the study, and serious problems related to Islam occur "only in exceptional cases." The study notes that the vast majority of Muslims are fully integrated into Swiss society, that Islam presents no particular problems for daily life in Switzerland, and that Islam rarely leads to social conflict. As a result, the study says, the government has decided that no further measures are necessary to promote Muslim integration.

Meanwhile as it turns out church attendance for the overall Swiss population is... 16 fucking percent. So hey. Apparently Christian Swiss are marginally more religious than Muslim Swiss.

But it's probably so close that they can hold hands in cultural unity for having pretty much the same number on their major religious fanaticism indicators. They can join in hands with the Australian population that manages the exact same fucking percentage to boot.

Now. Admit to being a fucking dumb ass racist yet?

[Fuchs]

And it's not about "what some racist told me", it's stuff in the news.

Really now. "Stuff in the news". You know. I can watch all kinds of "stuff in the news". It doesn't make it a fucking major public policy issue. All sorts of content free racist beat ups can in fact make it to "stuff in the news". Especially if you favor a conservative and commercial channels where racism predictably sells. Give me some fucking figures. How many goats are being slaughtered in flats? Where are the stories based on some sort of figure, some sort of actual public policy level issue instead of hearsay and paranoia and a few dumb racist fuckers telling stories of "one time at band camp someone totally fucking slaughtered a goat in their flat for realz!".

People take offense to such events, even if they happen rarely. That's the same with speeding accidents claiming children's lives. Animals and children make people care. (See the shitstorm about the killing of a giraffe in a zoo). In such cases the smart move is to acknowledge the issue, placate the complainers, and then continue as usual. Trying to paint everyone who objects to slaughtering stolen goats as racists makes people take actual racism less serious.

Make them feel heard and feel better about being heard, and then don't do much of anything about the small stuff (such as slaughtered goats). Over time people will grow more tolerant on one side, and adjust better to the local custom on the other side. But blaming everything on racism, and making the natives the scapegoat for any conflict? That's a sure-fire way to recruit more people for the right-wing extremists.

I have handled Immigration cases for years. I know how we investigate, how we check if People tell the truth. I have listened to "refugees"

Actual fucking figures or get the fuck out.

As it turns out... Australia DOES have a high rate of boat people officially recognized as refugees, coming in about 9 out of 10.

But... hey guess fucking what you fucker... when looking at an article comparing our boat people recognition rate internationally...

Among the main refugee-receiving industrialized countries, in 2011 Switzerland had the highest Total Recognition Rate at the first instance of 72%

72% is hardly "most of them aren't genuine refugees!".

I don't know what lies you are quoting, but according to official statistics about 15% of the refugees are accepted as political refugees.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch//content/dam/d ... -bfm-d.pdf

That enough of "actual numbers" for you? 85% are not political refugees. That's the vast majority.

Hey, PL - we don't have many religious nutcases here.

You don't? How is it you had a far right party trying to ban minarets? They got 29% of the vote just around that time. THEY aren't religious crazies REALLY? They're trying to ban architecture for being insufficiently Christian and that isn't fanaticism? That vote was apparently approved in a referendum with 57% of Swiss voters opting to chuck the basic concept of humane secularism under the bus to keep their roof lines chaste and Christian.

What about the nearly 50,000 signatures gathered by Swiss Christians to demand the banning and replacement of a mere Swiss eurovision song entry for being "Satanic" in about the same way that Christian extremists think D&D is?

You don't have religious extremists my ass.

50'000 nutcases are a tiny minority in a country of 8 million. As far as minarets are concerned: The vote was not a vote for more christian churches, but a vote against minarets. You don't have to be christian or religious to have issues with a religion.

I personally voted against the initiative, but I don't like seeing new minarets. I don't like seeing new churches either - both mean that religious people are growing in numbers and need more temples, and having more people who think they have to follow their god of choice above all is a bad thing. I like seeing empty churches getting turned into something else. It gives me hope for the future.

[PhoneLobster]

But blaming everything on racism, and making the natives the scapegoat for any conflict? That's a sure-fire way to recruit more people for the right-wing extremists.

No. The sure fire way to help right with racist extremists. Like you. Is to pertend it's a real issue and their concerns are valid and not something shamefully stupid they should fucking well reconsider like a humane adult.

YOUR expressed PERSONAL fear and outrage at dirty goat eating migrants breaking YOUR precious animal slaughtering laws is a clear case of you buying the racist propaganda.

I don't know what lies you are quoting,

A 2011 report from the UNHCR.

Known source of dirty filthy inhuman lies that lot.

And I mean really the sheer dishonesty, referring to the mere united nations refugee agency reports for information on refugees internationally!

50'000 nutcases are a tiny minority in a country of 8 million.

They are always a minority. That's what extremists ARE. Pretty much definitionally.

But you clearly have them. And in fact, have 50,000 SO crazy that they freak out over a euro vision song about vampires.

Meanwhile you ignore one of the ONLY hard indicators of religious faith recognized by statisticians in the form of church attendance. Which Muslim Swiss have a LOWER rate of than CHRISTIAN Swiss. IF you have a problem with religious nutters in your country then with the christian Swiss being both more religious AND massively more numerous then it is clearly the Christian Swiss you need to deal with.

As far as minarets are concerned: The vote was not a vote for more christian churches, but a vote against minarets.

Yeeees... a vote against freedom of fucking religion you twat. There are sufficient people of sufficient religious insanity in your country that they made it illegal for an oppressed minority religion to use a specific sort of architecture exclusively because it "feels muslimy".

What is your next attempt at deflecting that going to be? Are you going to pretend it's a purely architectural issue they had? And NOT a culture of racist and religiously motivated islamophobia? They just really hate pointy little towers? REALLY?

How fucking stupid are you?

I like seeing empty churches getting turned into something else. It gives me hope for the future.

That's all very nice and all. But secularism is a fucking important value and a culture that rejects it is a backward and unhealthy culture.

Secularism exists exclusively to prevent religious intolerance and oppression. That is definitionally what it is about. By rejecting it, especially by targetting a specific minority religion when rejecting it your nation has committed an act of deliberate Religious oppression against said minority.

[Korwin]

@PhoneLobster, you are recruiting me to the Racists side.

...Must stop reading your posts...

[Fuchs]

I don't know what lies you are quoting,

A 2011 report from the UNHCR.

Known source of dirty filthy inhuman lies that lot.

And I mean really the sheer dishonesty, referring to the mere united nations refugee agency reports for information on refugees internationally!

Maybe they mean the percentage of refugeees we let in to check their claims. I don't know - but the percentage of refugees accepted as genuine after the check is 15% in Switzerland. That's a fact.

I like seeing empty churches getting turned into something else. It gives me hope for the future.

That's all very nice and all. But secularism is a fucking important value and a culture that rejects it is a backward and unhealthy culture.

Archaic religions are often in conflict with more modern values. Girls not being allowed to learn to swim in school for religious reasons. Children not sent to school for religious reasons. Animals being slaughtered according to a holy book, in violation of modern laws that make anesthetics mandatory.

Time and again religious practises are being oppressed because they are against the law.

Secularism is important mainly as a means to keep religious beliefs at bay. I voted against banning minarets, but compared to the problems generated by tolerating questionable or inhumane practises of mysogenist cultures and religions such as cutting off body parts of babies and children it's a fairly minor issue.

[PhoneLobster]

Maybe they mean the percentage of refugeees we let in to check their claims. I don't know - but the percentage of refugees accepted as genuine after the check is 15% in Switzerland. That's a fact.

Then read the fucking report you ignorant fucker.

The number given by the UNHCRR is the TRR, Total Recognition Rate.

It is for 2011. A time when I am fucking sure you were hearing and making the SAME claim about refugees.

Now not much has changed since 2011 refugee wise other than more major reputable refugee manufacturing nations kicking up the business. So if your rate has rate has artificually dropped since it's sure as hell not the fault of a sudden and unprecedented influx of "fake" refugees. As you, oh I don't know implemented increasingly xenophobic racist policies to satisfy racists like yourself such as oh I don't know, a bullshit low arbitrary cap on acceptances regardless of actual legitimacy of humanitarian need (hm... why did that reprehensible and shameful example spring to mind?)...

Archaic religions are often in conflict with more modern values.

And Christianity is older than Islam you ass. And it IS in conflict with modern values. They do countless reprehensible things. And you don't run around banning protestant churches and rejecting countless thousands of white christian refugees in genuine fear for their lives just because you are afraid that some tiny minority of them will demand Creationist Science classes now do you?

And, lets make this clear again. There are MORE, many more, and proportionally more, religious "archaic" Christians in your nation than Muslims. Any unhealthy obsession you have with the less religious, and by your own dumb ass standard less "archaic" minority religion is entirely non-factual and even your own fucking government report I quoted you earlier agrees.

Secularism is important mainly as a means to keep religious beliefs at bay.

Oh hell no. You failed hard on that. Secularism isn't about suppressing religions.

It is the fucking opposite you dolt.

It's about NOT suppressing them. Sure it isn't about encouraging them either. But it's about avoiding and removing Religious oppression AND conflict and its a social contract you get everyone to sign up to on the basis that they get to go do their thing without having their fucking churches banned by some self proclaimed "moral majority" dick heads from some other religion.

Your nation has a bunch of dicks who want to toss secularism in the bin because they think they can pick and choose which religions they will oppress and it totally won't come back and bite them in the ass with religious strife like it has historically. They are stupid. Perhaps there is some flaw in Swiss education where they apparently fail to even teach you what the hell Secularism even IS.

but compared to the problems generated by tolerating questionable or inhumane practises of mysogenist cultures and religions such as cutting off body parts of babies and children it's a fairly minor issue.

Remind me again are THOSE actions legal in your country? Is that a thing that actually happens in Switzerland?

Are you honestly claiming that the 85-88% muslim population that does not even attend mosque is running around constantly slaughtering goats and mutilating their daughters?

...or maybe are you just repeating racist propaganda about those evil darkies in a dishonest purely diversionary smokescreen to cover the fact that actually Islamic migrants in Switzerland... are less Islamic than the existing population is Christian.

[Username17]

Quoting the percentage of immigration requests that are made under the auspices of political refugee status and the percentage of political asylum requests that are granted at each other as if they were remotely similar to the same thing is retarded. That's like confusing Lawrence Fishburn and Samuel Jackson. Both of you should feel like assholes.

But the simple fact is: it doesn't fucking matter. Switzerland doesn't have any fucking ports. They are landlocked and completely surrounded by EU countries. If they want to sell their goods in the United States, or buy goods from the United States, those goods have to go through France (or get smuggled through Lichtenstein, I suppose). And since goods & services trade back and forth between Switzerland and the United States totals 80 billion dollars a year, I'm guessing that is a thing that Switzerland would like to continue doing. And Switzerland can continue doing that, tariff free, so long as they remain a member in good standing with the European Free Trade Association.

But Europe doesn't only promise the free transport of goods, it also promises labor mobility. It's part of the fucking deal. just as Nestle has the right to buy a building in Bulgaria and start hiring workers there, European citizens from Bulgaria have the right to take a job in Switzerland and buy a house. These are equivalent and reciprocal rights.

So it turns out that Bulgarians are dicks. That's actually kind of true. But the fact is that Bulgarians already bought the right to move to Switzerland and the nation of Switzerland already sold it to them. Switzerland's Trade to GDP percentage was over 94% last quarter, and that wasn't a spike. Switzerland's trade is often above 100% of GDP. Roughly half of every Franc the Swiss people spend on goods and services buys something produced outside the country and roughly half of all the goods and services Swiss people produce for the market are destined for consumers abroad. If the EU handed Switzerland a bill for say 10% of what they allow across their roads, airspace, and phone lines each year, Switzerland would have to pay about $60 Billion. Per year.

And if the EU's feelings are sufficiently hurt to embargo Switzerland, we're not just talking every Mann und Frau in the country having to cough up ten percent of their income in additional taxes. Switzerland is not self sufficient in food. It produces 60% of what Swiss people eat internally, with the rest coming from or across EU owned transport lines. Switzerland could have food riots.

TL;DR: Switzerland cut a deal for free transport of goods and services in exchange for free transport of labor. Now they have voted to back out of the whole labor thing, which in turn would make it ethical and sensible for the EU to punish Switzerland economically to the tune of tens of billions of dollars and severe shortages up to and including food and medicine.

Switzerland has made a giant bet that the EU are too much of a bunch of pussies to actually embargo a country that has unilaterally pulled out of a treaty in bad faith. And they did on the excuse that "Bulgarians are kind of a bunch of dicks."

-Username17

[Koumei]

So it turns out that Bulgarians are dicks. That's actually kind of true.

Can you elaborate on this? Is this the government of Bulgaria, or a tendency of Bulgarian people to move to Switzerland and get jobs there for no particular reason other than to be dicks, or something else?

Switzerland has made a giant bet that the EU are too much of a bunch of pussies to actually embargo a country that has unilaterally pulled out of a treaty in bad faith.

Which could go either way - the EU have given enough evidence that they are in fact a bunch of pussies in previous cases (such as the Ukraine not being a smoking crater, well, current situation notwithstanding), but on the other hand, they have also flat-out told various countries "I don't care about your election, you're going to do what Merkel says if you want to ever see another fucking Euro" (see: Greece, Spain).

I'm going to assume that in any given case, they do the worse of the two options, so in this case they'll probably let Switzerland do as it pleases and still honour their side of it even as it erects a massive statue (made of Nazi gold no less!) in the shape of a middle finger.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So, how long will it take until another EU member decides that they're altering the deal and that people should pray that they do not alter it any further?

[Tumbling Down]

I'm going to assume that in any given case, they do the worse of the two options

That's usually a safe bet.

So, how long will it take until another EU member decides that they're altering the deal and that people should pray that they do not alter it any further?

A while, most likely never. You see, the big problem is that the cock-smoking mainstream politicians of Europe are fanatically devoted to preserving the Union at absolutely any and all costs. So what you're asking would effectively require a coalition of communists and nationalists joining hands for the explicit purpose of sticking it to Bruxelles.
I mean, it could totally happen if the relevant parties got half a chance at it, but that would require the cock-smokers to fumble the ball in a pretty impressive way, and I don't think we're quite there yet.

[hyzmarca]

PL, slaughtering animals outside licensed slaughterhouses is ILLEGAL here. Has been illegal for a long, long time. People take a dim view of neighbours breaking the law. It's not about chinese restaurants, it's not about dogs - hey, newsflash: Some of the most conservative people here actually do eat dogs out of tradition - it's about breaking the damn law. And it's not about "what some racist told me", it's stuff in the news.

Your laws are silly.

They're also probably racist.

And also probably classist .

Secularism is important mainly as a means to keep religious beliefs at bay. I voted against banning minarets, but compared to the problems generated by tolerating questionable or inhumane practises of mysogenist cultures and religions such as cutting off body parts of babies and children it's a fairly minor issue.

Secularism is inferior to multiculturalism.

The problem with intolerance is that it's all well and good when you're on top, but eventually someone is going to start oppressing you.



First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Korwin]

Your laws are silly.

And silly laws can be ignored?

[tussock]

All laws can be ignored, many often are. Silly laws go beyond that to where they should be ignored. Not that it will protect you in court: arguing the genuine problems and prejudice of a law is trickier than it seems, and judges have a very poor sense of humour about people who think they know better. At that stage the trick is to wear a nice suit and be contrite.

[angelfromanotherpin]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/2 ... dependence

[Username17]

Protesters in Kiev violated the truce that their nominal political leaders negotiated and began attacking police with lethal weapons. The police responded with live ammunition and there are dozens dead. Lviv's independence was immediately recognized by Poland and France, indicating that both countries knew it was coming. There are now European Union flags hanging over government buildings in Lviv.



I don't know how you could possibly interpret this as anything less than an act of war by the European Union on Ukraine. Non-zero chance of Russian peace keepers rolling in and flattening things. Extremely high chance of very large numbers of people getting shot. Lviv is actually only one of ten provinces in Western Ukraine. And while it's the biggest, it's still less than a quarter of the people in the region. So even if the rebels have full control over Lviv (unlikely), there's still a lot of territory they regard as theirs that the government in Kiev still has forces in. Could get really ugly.

But hey, it's been almost three whole years since a country got partitioned, so we're about on schedule for a new country (South Sudan formed in 2011, Kosovo achieved independence in 2008). I'm hoping they name the new country "Galicia."

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

I mean, it could totally happen if the relevant parties got half a chance at it, but that would require the cock-smokers to fumble the ball in a pretty impressive way, and I don't think we're quite there yet.

The police responded with live ammunition and there are dozens dead. Lviv's independence was immediately recognized by Poland and France, indicating that both countries knew it was coming.

How about now?

[Starmaker]

I'm hoping they name the new country "Galicia."

I'm betting on "something something Ukraine". Which will then be called West Ukraine in common parlance.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Lviv's independence was immediately recognized by Poland and France, indicating that both countries knew it was coming. There are now European Union flags hanging over government buildings in Lviv.

Can I get a cite on this? I've been looking on BBC for awhile, but, nothing.

[Tumbling Down]

How about now?

I still doubt it. Historically, no one in western-europe has managed to give a single fuck about dead eastern-europeans; look at the whole gas-line debacle.
Plus, they still have the get-out-of-jail-free-card of just blaming everything on the russians and having everyone believe it, because Putin.

[Koumei]

Yeah, Putin is such an asshole, and Russia is such a shithole, that you can pretty much get people on your side automatically just by aligning yourself against Russia like this was the '50s. So these people are starting violent riots against the state and ignoring what seems to be a legal election because "they don't like the results", but because their enemy is "pro-Russia", that basically means they get to be viewed as the good guys in this.

Also, we finally got some mainstream news coverage, now that there are firebombs in the streets. And possibly because it fits the "internal strife" theme nicely with "conflict in Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam PrasitBangkok".

If they name it the People's Republic of the Ukraine, we need to get a human rights peacekeeping group in there ASAP.

Lago: what do you actually mean by someone deciding to alter the deal, pray they don't etc? Do you just mean another country doing the Swiss thing and saying "Yeah, fuck off, we'll happily accept any benefits but we don't feel like honouring our part" (answer: it will probably become the new norm until the whole thing collapses), or another country turning to Switzerland and going Darth Vader on their ass, declaring "Fine. We're taking all this stuff you're not paying taxes on." (answer: unlikely)?

To think that prior to the financial crisis, the EU was actually awesome and things were looking up. Thanks, America!

(I just hope Sweden can remain awesome for another 30-40 years. Once I'm gone, I'll be all out of fucks to give.)

[Username17]

Lviv's independence was immediately recognized by Poland and France, indicating that both countries knew it was coming. There are now European Union flags hanging over government buildings in Lviv.

Can I get a cite on this? I've been looking on BBC for awhile, but, nothing.

Sorry, I'm wrong. Poland and France immediately backed the resolution imposing sanctions on Ukraine for having fired back at armed secessionists. Not the resolution of the secessionists declaring Lviv independent. That point was unclear on the broadcast here.

So all that means is that Poland and France had pre-packaged sanctions to slap Ukrainians with as soon as there was an excuse, but we already knew that because they had discussed doing that earlier on an even flimsier set of excuses.

Of course, the only way Western Ukraine is getting into the EU is if it gets annexed by Poland or Slovakia or both. If they try to enter the EU as an independent nation they need a unanimous vote of current member states. And since Spain still won't consent to Kosovars entering the EU for fear of giving ideas to their own Catalonians, I don't see that happening. And of course: there are several countries which have a vested interest in Poland not absorbing things they think they are supposed to own (Lithuania, Czech Republic, Belarus, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia, for example).

-Username17