Character Optimization request thread.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:41 pm

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.p ... tid=823654

I'm picking out gear for a Pathfinder support cleric who stands behind 6 hound archons and gives them buffs, with the capability of turning himself into a face-wrecker as well if necessary. He will be working with a paladin and a fireball-slinger.

I've got like 22 thousand GP left to spend, any suggestions? Everything I give to the hound archons counts as payment for Lesser Planar Ally, and may bump into a longer-term service bracket.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:31 pm

What exactly are you using your Hound Archons for?

Regardless, since:
[*] You're starting at level 10.
[*] The Void domain exists in Pathfinder.
[*] You're using a non-Core domain anyway.
[*] Your DM will let you use Leadership.

I'm not sure why you're not just picking that.

Some other observations:

You need to make room for Craft Wondrous Item to make yourself and party members cheap cloaks of resistance and amulets of natural armor and +WIS items and whatever -- unless someone else already has it. This feat is not negotiable in Pathfinder.

It looks like you're speccing your cleric as a blaster cleric. Blaster clerics are a very reasonable choice in Pathfinder, but why aren't you a Veiled Illusionist?

If you're just using the Heroism domain to buff your friends, can I recommend the Evangelist archetype instead? It's not a slam dunk by any means because you lose out on medium armor and shield proficiency and of course you give up a domain. However, being able to spontaneously cast Suggestion, Greater Command, and Enthrall is pure gold and the bardic performance makes up for the missing bonuses.

If you're interested in dumping celestials on the battlefield, in addition to the Planar Binding/Ally line, there's also the Summon Monster line, especially with Summon Good Monster. Pathfinder really supercharged that spell line, both with the Celestial Template and also dropping down the levels of certain monsters. Be warned however that Summon Good Monster conflicts with clerical planar binding (because you won't be able to cast Magic Circle against Good, which is retarded) so you'll need some way around that. Like having the party wizard cast the spell.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:42 pm

Unrelated question, but, if a monster gets extra hit dice from abilities like Inspire Greatness, does that increase the monster's BAB/feats/caster level? This can open up some very evil synergies with the Summon/Calling line.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:01 pm

Keep in mind for crafting feats, ultimate campaign says something along the lines that any crafting feat will give you 25% extra wbl, with a maximum of +50% wbl I believe.

But assuming you only use core+ apg, I'll list some of the general items for a cleric (not listing consumables / non-magical gear etc.)

Wondrous necklace:
AoMF (menacing) 4000 gp, for one of your hound archons, or yourself so that everyone who flanks a creature adjacent to you gains a +4 flanking bonus.

Weapon:
Dueling weapon + 14.000 gp +4 init enhancement +2 disarm and feint (def and off)

Greyflame +1 Swift action: duration channel die : +1 enhancement +1d6 dmg

Ring
Ring of Invisibility 20,000 gp
Featherfalling 2,200 gp
Ring of counterspell 4,000 gp
Ring of Sustenance 2500 gp
Ring of protection 2/8/18/32/50k +1/2/3/4/5 deflection

Rod
Metamagic, Extend, lesser 3.000/11.000/24.500
Bouncing 3000/11.000/24.500
Dazing 14.000/54.000/121.500

Wondrous Items
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs
Hand of Glory 8000gp Ring slot + see invis / daylight /day
Amulet of natural armour 2/8/18/32/50 +1/2/3/4/5
Adaption 9.000 Immune to gasses/can always breathe
Scarab, Golembane 2.500 Ignore golem DR

Belt
Ability boosts!

Body: robes and vestments.
Robe of Blending 8400 gp Alter self 1hr /day

Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Eyes of the Eagle 2500 gp +5 competence to perception

Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Boots of speed 12,000 gp

Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Glove of Storing 10.000 gp
Gloves of arrow snaring 4.000 2x a day

Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Circlet of Persuasion 4500 gp +3 competence to cha checks
Hat of Disguise 1800 gp disguise self at will

Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Ability boosts! (special mention to +int for picking up a skill or smarting up an animal companion or charisma for bloodline feat)

Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Cloak of Resistance 1/4/9/16/25k +x to saves

Other
Bag of Holding 1/2/3/4 2.5/5/7.4/10k Holds items!
Handy Haversack 2000 gp !
Bottle of Air 7.250
Ioun stone: Dusty Rose Prism 5.000 +1 insight to AC
Luckstone 20.000 gp +1 luck to saves, skills and ability checks

Pearl of power 1/2/3/4 1000/4000/9000/16000 Recall a spell, especially useful if you grab the divine interference feat at lvl 10+

Strand of Prayer Beads –
Healing 9000 gp heal 3d8+5 or remove disease or blindness/deafness
Karma 20.000 gp +4 caster lvl for 10 min

Some random stuff:
Campfire Bead 720 gp Everybody needs a comfortable campfire
Ioun Torch 75 gp Ioun stone torch
Feather token tree 400 gp If you can't solve it with a tree, then you're probably doomed
Dust of Dryness 850 100 gallons of water
Clamor Box 2000 gp Create sounds with delay for activating
Hand of the Mage 900 gp Mage hand at will
Marvelous pigments 4000 gp paint food, items, doors etc

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:09 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:What exactly are you using your Hound Archons for?

In this adventure, I expect to fight medium-sized squads of human infantry, large plant-monsters, an evil druid, and probably some summoned monsters. With their buffs, my hound archon squad should be able to make short work of the sultan's hellknights without cutting into my reserved spells. We can also hedge out summoned fiends, which could be a large threat on the levels of the dungeon that aren't heavily warded.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Regardless, since:
[*] You're starting at level 10.
[*] The Void domain exists in Pathfinder.
[*] You're using a non-Core domain anyway.
[*] Your DM will let you use Leadership.

I'm not sure why you're not just picking that.

This campaign setting uses Eberron alignments, and there are a few special ways Mister Cavern can screw over PB use. It could still be useful, but in this specific game it's a much easier sell if I show the hound archons as a substantial expense in my character wealth, so PA's flexibility is nice.

The spell selection has some nice stuff, and if I went for Void's Dark Tapestry subdomain, I could get an Advanced Bralani once per day and free Extends on all my castings of Summon Monster V. In Golarion, you can even combo it with Summon Good Monster if you worship the Black Butterfly. But I'm concerned that my targets have access to defensive magical architecture that would hedge out stuff that was summoned instead of called. Plus, if I wanted a dedicated angel summoner I'd play this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-cl ... -commander

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Some other observations:

You need to make room for Craft Wondrous Item to make yourself and party members cheap cloaks of resistance and amulets of natural armor and +WIS items and whatever -- unless someone else already has it. This feat is not negotiable in Pathfinder.

It looks like you're speccing your cleric as a blaster cleric. Blaster clerics are a very reasonable choice in Pathfinder, but why aren't you a Veiled Illusionist?

I suspect that my 7 overlapping Magic Circles against Evil (archons, Holy Sword wand) will give me Resistance and Deflection bonuses against most of the stuff in the mad sultan's torture greenhouse dungeon, but he might have neutral minions too. That's a pretty compelling argument, and I can probably afford to drop a spell specialization. All I need is to boost my CL to 11 with something else for 30 energy resistance, and to 12 for another spell immunity. There are items for that, I think.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:If you're just using the Heroism domain to buff your friends, can I recommend the Evangelist archetype instead? It's not a slam dunk by any means because you lose out on medium armor and shield proficiency and of course you give up a domain. However, being able to spontaneously cast Suggestion, Greater Command, and Enthrall is pure gold and the bardic performance makes up for the missing bonuses.

It is kind of tempting, and it sorta fits with the flavor of the scenario (assassinating the mad sultan for the Rebellion, subtly manipulated by a demon). I'd probably want to go with a different attribute spread than the "14 in everything" I was offered, though. Or just spam lantern archon summons and stack hit/damage bonuses on their rays. That would just require me knocking small holes in the summon wards, and having my summons act like a big teleporting laser turret.

Thanks for the suggestions, you've shown me some takes on the build I haven't considered before. I definitely need to look into CL boosters, that would free up as many as 3 feats for crafting and other benefits.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:17 pm

ishy wrote:Wondrous necklace:
AoMF (menacing) 4000 gp, for one of your hound archons, or yourself so that everyone who flanks a creature adjacent to you gains a +4 flanking bonus.

That does sound pretty great. Might be worth crafting more than one.

ishy wrote:Other
Bag of Holding 1/2/3/4 2.5/5/7.4/10k Holds items!
Handy Haversack 2000 gp !
Bottle of Air 7.250

If I grab a portable hole and a bottle of air, I can keep the angels in my pocket until they are needed. Nice.

ishy wrote:Pearl of power 1/2/3/4 1000/4000/9000/16000 Recall a spell, especially useful if you grab the divine interference feat at lvl 10+

Oh! This would let me double the bonus for all 12 rounds of my heroism aura. Nice. What does divine interference do?

ishy wrote:Strand of Prayer Beads –
Healing 9000 gp heal 3d8+5 or remove disease or blindness/deafness
Karma 20.000 gp +4 caster lvl for 10 min

The Karma bead would dramatically enhance my buff routine and save 3 feats. It might be worth the cost.

ishy wrote:Feather token tree 400 gp If you can't solve it with a tree, then you're probably doomed
Dust of Dryness 850 100 gallons of water

Yes. Both of those would help if I need to wreck the palace.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:57 pm

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicFeats.html#_divine-interference wrote:Divine interference[/url]]You can convert a spell to interfere with an enemy's attack.

Prerequisites: Divine spellcaster, caster level 10th.

Benefit: As an immediate action, when an enemy within 30 feet hits an ally with an attack, you can sacrifice a prepared divine spell or (if you are a spontaneous caster) an unused spell slot and make the enemy reroll the attack roll. The second attack roll takes a penalty equal to the level of the spell you sacrifice. You must sacrifice a spell of 1st-level or higher to use this ability. Whether or not the second attack is successful, you cannot use this effect on the same creature again for 1 day.

Since you count as your own ally, it can be quite to nice to remove crits etc.
You might not be able to take it though since it requires caster level 10 and you get a feat at 11.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:30 am

So, I had the idea of making a very heavily dragon-like mage character in Pathfinder. Not the most original idea, I know, but I still like it, but problem is, I'm not sure what approach would be best to take for a human mage who is as effectively also a dragon as I can manage.

I have 3 possible approach ideas so far:

-Pure Sorcerer with Draconic bloodline, all sorcerer levels, pure spellcasting, little to no melee capability

-Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, to go for a mix of magic and melee ability. Using either a good sword or claws to mix it up in melee with good strength as well as magic sounds good, but the lost caster levels make me instinctively cringe nonetheless.

-Synthesist Summoner with a Dragon-like Eidolon. The easiest way to be badass in melee without having to deal with multiclassing or dragon disciple, but at the same time, the Summoner's magic is, well, lacking, compared to the straight sorcerer nonetheless. Even so, I suspect this is a better approach mechanically than the second one.

Which of these three approaches would be best for me to take in regards to trying to build a "Dragon Mage" type character using only Pathfinder materials?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:01 am

A sorcerer with the draconic bloodline is very sorcerery, but not very dragony.

A sorcerer/dragon disciple is more assy than sorcerery or dragony.

A synthesist summoner is very dragony.

I think you can guess which one I would pick.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:24 am

Summoner spellcasting won't be very dragony but it is very good. It is a lot like the Beguiler in the sense that it's spell list offers you everything you need at every level of play it just doesn't offer you a lot extra on the side.

Asking your DM to pretty-please let you have the Warmage's "Advanced Learning" ability would help you feel more dragony. It might help if you tell your DM the fact that it would not increase your power AT ALL and if anything would probably lower it by allowing you access to things that you will use to sandbag yourself.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:37 am

If you play a Samsaran, you could add dragony spells to your list.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:03 pm

TiaC wrote:If you play a Samsaran, you could add dragony spells to your list.

Pathfinder has some really amazing feats.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:00 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Pathfinder has some really amazing feats.

I would basically never use that even if it didn't cost a feat.

Admittedly, it at least does something. It's not as bad as that feat that negates a penalty that doesn't exist.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:42 am

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Pathfinder has some really amazing feats.
I would basically never use that even if it didn't cost a feat.

Admittedly, it at least does something. It's not as bad as that feat that negates a penalty that doesn't exist.

Get fast healing, produce healin' potions all day erryday.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:39 am

Domain Spells: 1st—feather fall, 2nd—levitate, 3rd—fly, 4th—lesser planar binding, 5th—overland flight, 6th—planar binding, 7th—reverse gravity, 8th—greater planar binding, 9th—interplanetary teleport.

Why the fuck is there a need for an interplanetary teleport spell? Greater teleport already takes you anywhere in the same plane.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:41 am

Wiseman wrote:Why the fuck is there a need for an interplanetary teleport spell? Greater teleport already takes you anywhere in the same plane.

Someone thought there was a typo and that it was supposed to say "same planet"?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:08 am

Technically, teleport does have a limit of 100 miles per caster level.

However, plane shift will drop you within 5-500 miles of your intended destination (with no description of or limits on how that destination is determined) and a teleport will take you there afterwards. The need for an interplanetary teleport spell is still incredibly dubious. The fact that you can't do it until level 17 is lolwut. Travelling to places that are made of actual fire is a 9th level adventure, but apparently travelling to a place that is exactly like the one you're at now except everyone wears funny hats is a 17th level adventure.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:15 am

Yes teleport does, but Greater teleport has no range limit, meaning you can simply use that to teleport to mars if you want to.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:41 am

OgreBattle wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Pathfinder has some really amazing feats.
I would basically never use that even if it didn't cost a feat.

Admittedly, it at least does something. It's not as bad as that feat that negates a penalty that doesn't exist.
Get fast healing, produce healin' potions all day erryday.

Nothing indicates that you can bottle it. Even if you could, 1d4 healing per day is not worth shit.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:45 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote: I would basically never use that even if it didn't cost a feat.

Admittedly, it at least does something. It's not as bad as that feat that negates a penalty that doesn't exist.
Get fast healing, produce healin' potions all day erryday.
Nothing indicates that you can bottle it. Even if you could, 1d4 healing per day is not worth shit.

Turnip economy goods.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:33 am

Wiseman wrote:Yes teleport does, but Greater teleport has no range limit, meaning you can simply use that to teleport to mars if you want to.

Oh. Yeah. I totally forgot teleport and greater teleport were different things. Derp.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:04 am

Wiseman wrote:Yes teleport does, but Greater teleport has no range limit, meaning you can simply use that to teleport to mars if you want to.

Actually greater teleport has this line in its description:

Interplanar travel is not possible.

.
Now sure you might argue that you'd be better off removing that specific line and I'd agree with you, but you can't always expect sensible things.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:13 am

ishy wrote:
Wiseman wrote:Yes teleport does, but Greater teleport has no range limit, meaning you can simply use that to teleport to mars if you want to.
Actually greater teleport has this line in its description:
Interplanar travel is not possible.
.
Now sure you might argue that you'd be better off removing that specific line and I'd agree with you, but you can't always expect sensible things.

Interplanetary and interplanar are not the same thing.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:27 am

Righto, I should stop posting before I got my coffee.

Here to make up for my stupid error, James talking about this.

Side note, I always wonder why interplanar travel is not possible with a spell that literally is interplanar travel.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:48 pm

So, I've read on here before that a heavily bomb-focused pathfinder alchemist can be decent, but how would a melee focused alchemist be made to be worth his place in the party? Either way, I would take the Beastmorph archetype, but would it be better to keep access to bombs as well as melee and mutagen, or trade bombs for the Vivisectionist archetype and sneak attack?