MGuy wrote:That is a very big 'if' you're throwing around there. The way you're using the term defies the expectations of your common player. If you were just to toss around the idea that getting a scroll is equal to leveling up people would look at you funny. This goes double for giving someone infinite arrows or an animated length of rope. Those things are handy, to be sure, but most people wouldn't consider getting either of those as leveling up their character.
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Stop being an idiot. Please stop.
We are talking about balancing players against challenges. I don't give two fucking shits what you think players call or do not call leveling up. No one at any point ever is talking about leveling the fuck up.
If you have a general statement in your game, that says "A level X character, should be facing the following Y challenges" of any kind or form, so don't fucking nitpick this you shitbag, and then you have the fucking PCs obtain items that do not suck and actually do anything at all of any kind even remotely, even if they just allow them to climb things, even if they just allow them to fly more time, or fly and cast one more spell. Even if it is "just" a Pearl of Power of their highest level spell slot, then that item makes them capable of:
1) Beating harder challenges.
2) Beating New challenges.
Even if the New challenge is just "everything I did yesterday, and also something else that someone else of my level could do yesterday."
Therefore, once you have given them those items, the statement "this specific character should be facing the following Y challenges" is factually wrong, because that character is now going to face the following Z challenges, which are greater than Y.
MGuy wrote:Well that's just it. Having equipment that gives you pluses is a different thing than having equipment like rope or chalk. You may put them on the same list but as far as a game like D+D goes having the gear that gives you actual factual bonuses in combat allow you specifically to take on harder challenges.
So in other words, this ability is a perfectly acceptable ability that does not make a character higher level in any way at all:
"The character holding this item can cast Gate at will" since it doesn't add any combat bonuses. Or hey, "Gate at will, but the creates cannot take attack actions or cast spells that target a creature." Eliminates most buffs and offensive spells, but by no means all. But hey, it doesn't increase their numbers in combat, so totally not something that makes someone act as a higher level character at all...
MGuy wrote:rope and/or chalk would not be considered by most as helping you face higher level or even 'new' challenges. They are 'useful' no doubt but its not the same thing.
They obviously and trivially help you overcome new challenges. The Wall you could not scale can now be scaled. You can overcome a challenge you could not before. That is in fact, the very definition of an item helping you overcome new challenges.
MGuy wrote:I'll note that these are different than the dichotomy you brought up before.
I'll note that they are literally the same fucking dichotomy I presented earlier, where one and three are the same exact fucking things from before, and I added "Also you can beat down previous challenges without them being challenging because they are now easier."
You literally just told me that the things I typed are magically different from the same exact things from earlier.
MGuy wrote:Second I'm saying that the way 'level' is being used doesn't mesh with what most people expect when you're referring to a character being 'higher level' than another.
And I'm saying that no in the entire universe who isn't an idiot gives a flying fuck what people mean when they talk about their character being higher level when we non idiots, IE not you, are talking about designing fucking challenges for characters, so we only care if the advice for how many challenges of what difficulty you give PCs is accurate or not.
MGuy wrote:Here, the Wizard you gave an item of fly to hands it to the Fighter, who just gained the ability to bear new and harder challenges than he had before. LEVEL UP BY ITEMS! MGUY IS WRONG AS SHIT.
Now can you shut the fuck up or talk about something actually relevant?
I don't know why you would even bring this up. Yes if you completely change the conditions I spoke of into something completely and utterly different the outcome is different. My point was that if you give someone who can already fly another way to fly that you aren't opening up new challenges for them nor are you enabling them to face harder challenges. Yes if you give a flight to someone who has no ability to fly they can face new flight based challenges. My only question is why would you even bring that up when I never argued against it?
You fucking idiot.
You complete moron.
You dumbest shit who ever lived.
Please just never post again for as long as you live.
You fucking said, your stupid fucking example of giving a fucking Wizard who can cast fly a item that casts fly as an item that doesn't level people up because it doesn't give them new abilities, just more fireballs, so they do more damage, so they can defeat harder challenges.
Now obviously, giving a Wizard, more fireballs, allows them to beat harder challenges, so you are an idiot, and wrong.
But on top of that, you specific example was giving a Wizard an item that casts fly. Since you probably aren't designing and RPG meant to be played by one person, there is absolutely nothing at all that prevents that fucking Wizard from handing the item to some other character who can't fly, who will then, have more fucking abilities from gaining a fucking ability he previously did not have, from your item.
That is the fucking point.
