Pathfinder Crash Course

[Username17]

FatR, stop being stupid.

Any number of Jekill/Hide ripoffs; Bane or, in fact, any character who depends on some sort of non-permanent super serum for competence; Dr. Moreau, Herbert West and in fact a good deal of mad scientists

How many of those characters also throw Chemical bombs? Zero of them. There are lots of mad scientist characters, lots of evil chemists, but so far the only character that both takes super serum to hulk out and throws bombs at people is The Green Goblin. Seriously. That's the only guy. And you have named zero other people who fit that bill.

Second, "straight mind control" and "deceiving opponent's senses" are indeed distinctly different niches (indeed the former tends to make the latter redundant) and I don't think it anyone would naturally come to conclusion that the latter should make the former easier.

This is a joke, right? Characters who make illusions and also mind control people are so fucking common that I don't have to dip into Marvel comics at all. I mean, I can pull out characters like Mastermind or White Queen, but it's not necessary. You got shit like the old Disney Sleeping Beauty cartoon where Princess Aurora is shown illusionary crap and then hypnotized to walk over and poke a spindle. Popular culture simply does not and never has made a solid distinction between making people see things and making people do things with mind magic.

You'd be on firmer ground complaining that the Beguiler both has mind magic and also makes clouds. On the grounds that there are lots of mentalist character who can't make clouds of mist. But of course, when you start talking about fairy magic, there are lots and lots of characters who both beguile people with sorcery and also make opaque mists show up.

This is not the hill you want to die on. The Alchemist is actually a really weird character, and the Beguiler has a very broad and very common theme. You made a dumb boast and you were called on it. Slink away with your tail between your legs or eat your fucking crow.

-Username17

[Antariuk]

Hell, I still don't understand how traits even work. Do I get all of the standard ones? Less? As a Half-Elf, it says I can pick traits off the Human and Elf lists? How the hell does that even work?

As a Half-Elf, you can take anything that has a racial prereq of "Human" or "Elf" (assuming you meet the other prereqs), including but not limited to the Human/Elf limited traits, of which you get two at first level if you're using that rule, two for a feat if it's not banned, and technically zero by default. This is completely different from the Racial Traits (and Alternate Racial Traits) listed for each race, of which you only get the Half-Elf ones. You do, though, get all the "standard" ones, and then you can swap them out for Alternate ones as described in the listing for each ("Ancestral Arms [...] This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.")

This is something a lot of people get wrong, but I don't blame them because Pathfinder uses the term "traits" interchangeably and like it's going out of style. Elf Blood allows you to take racial feats, racial archetypes, and racial traits from the list of traits as in the fiddly extra bits to customize your character. What it doesn't mean is that you get to browse the racial traits for elves or humans and take, say, Heart of the Fields from the human race entry to make yourself a rage-cycling barbarian.

Also, regarding the two "normal" traits allowed by the trait rules, you can only have one trait per category and trait bonuses don't stack. But traits are still crazy powerful, depending on how many sources are allowed and how long you look into the lists. There are traits that grant new class skill, a trait that gives you trapfinding (lots of feelings have been had over that one), traits that give you bonuses or re-rolls against certain effects, and so on.


EDIT: This is aimed at Shatner.

If your GM is lenient, and if you don't mind some Pathfinder Society fluff, there is a trait in the Players Guide for the Shattered Star Adventure Path that allows druids to wildshape for 2 hours/level instead of 1 hour/level. Yes, really.

[DSMatticus]

Fist, please decide if beguiler is "Enchanter" or "Magic deceiver" between themselves.

Second, "straight mind control" and "deceiving opponent's senses" are indeed distinctly different niches (indeed the former tends to make the latter redundant) and I don't think it anyone would naturally come to conclusion that the latter should make the former easier.

I'm pretty sure you are living under a rock and only ever come out to say stupid shit on TGD. If you think there's a hard divide between mind control and illusions you... aren't qualified to be in any discussion about magic or superpowers in popular fiction. I'm just going to make the broad recommendation that you buy a T.V. and watch things on it.

You haven't actually read the alchemist class and taking your knowledge about it from the Den, haven't you?

The starting point for the alchemist is warlock. Note how both classes have as their most noticeable ability a ranged touch attack that is fired as a standard action and scales almost the same (shittily) and is mostly useable due to possible rider effects. Both also feature transformative powers. The key difference is that alchemist is given limited resources both for ranged touch spam and transformations, but with archetypes and shit it still can come out stronger.

HAHAHAHA

One, the warlock's eldritch blast is a standard action. The alchemist's bomb throwing is just an attack. They are not mechanically similar or thematically similar. You may as well claim the alchemist's bombs are based on wizards casting scorching ray. Does it make any sense? Of course not, but if you're gonna try to say stupid shit go for the gold.

Two, the warlock is not known for transformative powers. Here is an exhaustive list of invocations in complete arcane that change the warlock into something else: dark discorporation, the thing that turns you into a swarm. The warlock is actually known for getting shitty at-will control effects (usually too late for them to have mattered) like summon swarm, charm, and chilling tentacles.

Any number of Jekill/Hide ripoffs; Bane or, in fact, any character who depends on some sort of non-permanent super serum for competence; Dr. Moreau, Herbert West and in fact a good deal of mad scientists;

You are naming people who do one (maybe two) of the alchemist's three defining features. Nice try, but you fail. So far, the list is still the Green Goblin, because he is the only character mentioned thus far who throws bombs, uses chemistry as a weapon, and takes supersoldier drugs, which are all the things an alchemist does.

I'm just going to call everyone with a huge white beard a wizard from now on. Sure, maybe they don't have the whole magic thing down, but they've got the rest of the package.

[ishy]

Also, this-

is an actual character from Gygax's games. The party got transported to a Wild West world and Murlynd came back with boots, a stetson and pistols.

Gunslingers in D&D are honestly almost as old as the game.

Just because Gygax played it, doesn't make it in genre. Would you consider this: in genre?
Because it was used in a D&D game run by Gygax.

[Kaelik]

The starting point for the alchemist is warlock. Note how both classes have as their most noticeable ability a ranged touch attack that is fired as a standard action and scales almost the same (shittily) and is mostly useable due to possible rider effects. Both also feature transformative powers.

What fucking transformative powers do you think Warlocks have?

[FatR]

FatR, stop being stupid.

Any number of Jekill/Hide ripoffs; Bane or, in fact, any character who depends on some sort of non-permanent super serum for competence; Dr. Moreau, Herbert West and in fact a good deal of mad scientists

How many of those characters also throw Chemical bombs? Zero of them.

Half, maybe more than that, alchemists you are likely to encounter in games, trade off chemical bombs for sneak attack. You seem to think that people play alchemists for bomb-throwing. But ever since Vivisectionist was released people mostly play alchemists because the alchemist is the way to make a rogue-like character with 3/4 spellcasting.

Also, how many mind controllers wear armor (in settings where casters usually don't), or are supposed to search for traps, or get bonuses to establish mind control when their enemy doesn't see them coming (even though the only form of mind control in fiction that depends on that is placing actual physical devices on victims)?

Second, "straight mind control" and "deceiving opponent's senses" are indeed distinctly different niches (indeed the former tends to make the latter redundant) and I don't think it anyone would naturally come to conclusion that the latter should make the former easier.

This is a joke, right? Characters who make illusions and also mind control people are so fucking common that I don't have to dip into Marvel comics at all. I mean, I can pull out characters like Mastermind or White Queen, but it's not necessary. You got shit like the old Disney Sleeping Beauty cartoon where Princess Aurora is shown illusionary crap and then hypnotized to walk over and poke a spindle. Popular culture simply does not and never has made a solid distinction between making people see things and making people do things with mind magic.

Except illusions in popular culture - and over half of them in DnD - are not mind magic. Mara or Mysterio don't fuck with the minds of observers to put them on an acid trip, they make things seem to appear where they aren't. Almost every shitty fantasy series of our time (Wheel of Time, Wizard's Rules, Shannara) include magic that disguises people or someone else or make things appear/disappear without getting into people's brains to compel behavior. In anime misleading the enemy about your true position with optical tricks like afterimages/mirror images is pretty much a staple defensive ability, and it certainly does not involve mental influence. Even in fucking Naruto you have a noticeable difference between mere optical tricks and "illusions" that take over your mind right away, and trap you in a virtual reality, and pretty much win fights instantly if succesfully used.

And beguiler is weird, because its most character-defining ability is to use conceptually low-level stuff, like optical tricks, surprise and bluffs in the vein "there is someone behind you" to make conceptually high-level stuff, like taking over people's minds, work better.

So, if you want to provide examples of beguilers from popular literature, don't bring me enchanter (or illusionist) wizards who are doing their wizard stuff. At the very least, bring me a character who relies on surprise and making people lower their defenses to put them under mind control. Actually, I think Harry Potter wizards might come the closest, what with the quick draw being the most available way to safeguard oneself from a mind control curse.

HAHAHAHA
One, the warlock's eldritch blast is a standard action. The alchemist's bomb throwing is just an attack.

"Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. (c)"
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist

And on this note I'm done talking with you. Not knowing what the fuck you're talking about is one thing, refusing to know after being provided correct information is another.

[Username17]

Also, how many mind controllers wear armor (in settings where casters usually don't), or are supposed to search for traps, or get bonuses to establish mind control when their enemy doesn't see them coming (even though the only form of mind control in fiction that depends on that is placing actual physical devices on victims)?

This is a joke, right? These objections are such weak tea that you appear to be making parody rather than argument. I thought that you had made the weakest, dumbest argument possible when you claimed that illusions and mind control never intersected on characters in popular fiction, but this takes absurdity to a new level.

Saying "how many characters wear armor in settings where the characters don't wear armor?" is like zen. I mean, it's not a counterargument to fucking anything. It's just a counterfactual contradiction introduced to try to shout out discussion. It's not even fucking relevant, since of course in D&D there are plenty of casters who wear light armor (Bards, for example) and plenty of casters who wear heavy armor (Clerics, for example). So having a character who wears light, heavy, or no armor isn't even interesting. It's simply a facet of the game like having a will save progression that has no bearing one way or the other on how characters are represented or not in fiction.

As for finding traps, you know that "smarty pants" characters are called upon to identify traps in most stories where that is a thing. Right? I mean, that's one of the major ways that a story shows that a character is the smartest guy in the room, whether they are Gandalf or Indiana Jones. Illusionists and psychics are generally "intelligent" archetypes, and thus find danger all the times.

Your only even discussable objection is people getting bonuses to mind control against unaware opponents. And that is, of course, something that happens in a lot of stories. There are a lot of stories where knowing that there is an illusionist gives you opportunities to resist the illusions that you would not have if you were unaware of them. We can go back to Mastermind and White Queen, since so far you have been literally incapable of naming a single character supported by the base Alchemist class who isn't a villain from Marvel Comics. People who know that Mastermind is there can sometimes shake off his domination by saying "This isn't real, man!" and people who don't... can't. Mastermind's bonus for going after unaware people is so big that apparently people can't even make that save, so far as I can remember.

Eat your fucking crow and move on. You are embarrassing yourself and if you persist in saying stupid crap we are going to have no choice but to start responding to you with dismissive memes. You. Are. A. Joke.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

how many mind controllers wear armor

Any number of Jekill/Hide ripoffs; Bane or, in fact, any character who depends on some sort of non-permanent super serum for competence; Dr. Moreau, Herbert West and in fact a good deal of mad scientists [fit the alchemist concept.]

Alchemists are proficient with all simple weapons and bombs. They are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Bane isn't really an alchemist. Even ignoring the bomb thing, he doesn't wear armor! </sarcasm>

Do you honestly not realize what a dishonest little asshat you're being? You aren't arguing from any consistent theory or belief. You're just spouting shit as it fits the moment and hoping it will lead you to victory, but alas, all you've really managed to do is make the compelling argument that you are too busy shitting all over your own examples to be taken seriously.

As for "whose magic is harder to resist when they don't know it's coming?!", I'm going to repeat the exact advice I already gave you: watch some fucking television. People being more able to resist mind fuckery and illusions when they are aware (or made aware) of them is a fucking ubiquitous trope. It's everywhere. How are you so staggeringly ignorant of modern entertainment? I'm really not prepared for this level of "nuh-uh"-ism. I never quite figured out how to argue with someone who begins from the premise "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Half, maybe more than that, alchemists you are likely to encounter in games, trade off chemical bombs for sneak attack. You seem to think that people play alchemists for bomb-throwing.

"Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. (c)"

"I get to ignore the alchemist's bomb ability because there's an archetype that trades it for something else!"
"What the fuck is fast bombs? I've never heard of this. You're just making shit up."

Bonus: guess which one of those two options is featured in the original alchemist entry?

[virgil]

For the hell of it, I decided to try to think of intelligent characters that throw bombs and chemically augment themselves...

• Bomb Queen
  Mario Mario, M.D.

[hyzmarca]

For the hell of it, I decided to try to think of intelligent characters that throw bombs and chemically augment themselves...

• Bomb Queen
  Mario Mario, M.D.

Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.

[Shatner]

First off, thanks ever so much momothefiddler, rasmuswagner, and Antariuk for the help. There are lots of good stuff from your posts that I otherwise would have missed completely.

So... traits. I'm still a little confused so I want to present a concrete example so you guys can tell me where I go off the tracks. So, I'm a 1st level Half-Elf. I start with all the Racial traits printed between the text "Standard Racial Traits" and "Alternate Racial Traits" on this page, right? I can then wade into Alternate Racial Traits and Subtypes to swap some stuff out.

In addition to those standard racial traits, I've got 2 additional traits I can assign (probably, depending on the DM). Now, since I'm a half-elf, and thus both a human and an elf, I can go dumpster diving through the elf and human lists as well as the half-elf and non-race specific traits... right? So I can grab World Traveler despite not being human, but I can't grab Bonus Feat or Skilled off the Human Standard Traits, right?


On the subject of feats, I'm wondering if it'd be worth it to light two feats on fire taking Fast Learner and Improvisation. The former would net me either +8hp or +4 to the most common uses of Diplomacy and Intimidate. Since the goal behind the character is to be very broadly skilled, the latter accomplishes that. Against level-appropriate skill challenges I'm and 8th level character who's effectively as skilled as a 2nd level character and would thus be fairly ineffective. However, if the actual challenge is to handle the latest ass-pull skill check, being considered "trained" in a skill and able to reliably hit a DC 15 should solve the matter (DC 20 with items or buffs). And since 1000 Faces/Alter Self effectively offers +5 to stealth checks (+2 dex, +4 hiding by shifting into a small humanoid), my character should be able to not embarrass himself tagging along with the rogue. Sound reasonable?

[OgreBattle]

Various naruto ninjas throw spell tag shrunken and augment themselves by ingesting things.

[Antariuk]

In addition to those standard racial traits, I've got 2 additional traits I can assign (probably, depending on the DM). Now, since I'm a half-elf, and thus both a human and an elf, I can go dumpster diving through the elf and human lists as well as the half-elf and non-race specific traits... right? So I can grab World Traveler despite not being human, but I can't grab Bonus Feat or Skilled off the Human Standard Traits, right?

Correct.

On the subject of feats, I'm wondering if it'd be worth it to light two feats on fire taking Fast Learner and Improvisation. The former would net me either +8hp or +4 to the most common uses of Diplomacy and Intimidate. Since the goal behind the character is to be very broadly skilled, the latter accomplishes that. Against level-appropriate skill challenges I'm and 8th level character who's effectively as skilled as a 2nd level character and would thus be fairly ineffective. However, if the actual challenge is to handle the latest ass-pull skill check, being considered "trained" in a skill and able to reliably hit a DC 15 should solve the matter (DC 20 with items or buffs). And since 1000 Faces/Alter Self effectively offers +5 to stealth checks (+2 dex, +4 hiding by shifting into a small humanoid), my character should be able to not embarrass himself tagging along with the rogue. Sound reasonable?

Well, Thousand Faces comes online at 13th level for standard druids, so unless there's some archetype for that (this could totally be Pathfinder's tagline) or unless you gain access to the alter self spell via some trait/feat/whatever, you would need to wait five levels (you are 8th level, right?). But you could wildshape's elemental body I instead to become a small elemental and gain the same - even more - bonuses without any kind of trouble. Dunno if there's a FAQ on the matter, but general consesus is that you can cast and do all the normal stuff while being an elemental (IIRC some Pathfinder devs said so somewhere).

[Shatner]

Well, Thousand Faces comes online at 13th level for standard druids, so unless there's some archetype for that (this could totally be Pathfinder's tagline) or unless you gain access to the alter self spell via some trait/feat/whatever, you would need to wait five levels (you are 8th level, right?). But you could cast elemental body I instead to become a small elemental and gain the same - even more - bonuses without any kind of trouble. Dunno if there's a FAQ on the matter, but general consesus is that you can cast and do all the normal stuff while being an elemental (IIRC some Pathfinder devs said so somewhere).

I'm thinking of taking the Urban Druid archetype which gives you 1000 Faces at 6th level. So yes, there is an archetype for that.

[name_here]

For the hell of it, I decided to try to think of intelligent characters that throw bombs and chemically augment themselves...

• Bomb Queen
  Mario Mario, M.D.

The Atelier series alchemists, though they are more about healing than buffing.

[FatR]

Bullshit.

Your arguments boil down to two points:

(1)Jedi Mind Trick and movie Loki's illusions fill the thematic niches so close that viewers totally won't be surprised and confused if Loki - the current most iconic magical trickster in pretty much everywhere, I might add - suddenly starts convincing people by literal handwaving. Because some (much less known) characters used mind influence powers to create acid trips.

(2)If a Pathfinder's class abilities - as you define them - do not exactly match abitities of a fictional character, then this class cannot be used to emulate that character and can be branded "weirdly specific". If a 3.5's class abilities - which are the only not-purely-mechanical things that differentiate it from a vanilla class - have no equivalent in fiction whatsoever, at least no equivalent you can name, then you can just bring up examples of characters that better fit the vanilla class in question and say that the variant class is a broad archetype.

The rest is putting into my mouth words I didn't say and implementing the time-honored 4chan tactics of declaring yourself the winner.

In short, your "arguments" are so retarded, that I feel deeply ashamed for gracing them with an answer when you first put them forth.

[virgil]

(1)Jedi Mind Trick and movie Loki's illusions fill the thematic niches so close that viewers totally won't be surprised and confused if Loki - the current most iconic magical trickster in pretty much everywhere, I might add - suddenly starts convincing people by literal handwaving. Because some (much less known) characters used mind influence powers to create acid trips.

[Username17]

(1)Jedi Mind Trick and movie Loki's illusions fill the thematic niches so close that viewers totally won't be surprised and confused if Loki - the current most iconic magical trickster in pretty much everywhere, I might add - suddenly starts convincing people by literal handwaving. Because some (much less known) characters used mind influence powers to create acid trips.

I'm not even going to read the rest of your argument. Have you seen any of those movies? Because Loki using mind control to puppet Selvig around is a major plot point at the end of Thor. Also Loki uses emotion control to make Hulk freak out on the carrier during Avengers.

You're acting like it's obvious that viewers would be surprised if movie Loki "started" demonstrating magic powers that he already demonstrated in the first movie. Literally. That's pathetic. You just own goaled yourself so hard in this discussion that there's nothing more to say. So we'll just start responding to you with dismissive internet memes that subtly mock how hilariously wrong you are.



-Username17

[Wiseman]

Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.

Sigged.

Also, going back a few pages. What's the issue with the Pathfinder FAQ?

[DSMatticus]

FatR, for all your bitching and whining (and shitting all over your own examples with bad arguments conceived in poorly thought out desperation), if you'll remember the argument is that "dude who throws bombs and takes supersoldier serum while doing chemistry magic" is a very specific concept, while "dude who uses magic to control the mind and deceive the senses" is a very broad concept.

Your arguments for why the alchemist isn't very specific boils down to naming characters who aren't alchemists and calling them alchemists. Like Bane, who does not throw bombs and does not do chemistry magic but does take supersoldier serum.

Your arguments for why the beguiler isn't a very broad concept boils down to "I don't watch television, I don't read books, what's a comic, I've never seen those two things together in my life" and "but the beguiler wears armor and casters in fantasy usually don't, just like how alchemists wear armor and Bane doesn't but Bane is still totally a legit example of an alchemist fuck you that's why."

No, you can't evaluate the alchemist with an OR between all its defining features while evaluating the beguiler with an AND between the same. No, you can't strictly adhere to piddly bullshit like armor proficiencies for the beguiler while ignoring them for the alchemist. Stop being such a blatantly shitty and dishonest poster.

[TOZ]

The starting point for the alchemist is warlock.

How did you fuck this up so bad when the witch is right there in the same book?

[Josh_Kablack]

Also, how many mind controllers wear armor (in settings where casters usually don't),

Frank's being harsh, that's actually a fair question. And the answer is two ....If you are only counting female X-men during the Clarement years"

Here's the result of five minutes of comics memory and google:

Don't make me pull out decades of Dr Strange / Dr Fate rosters to prove that "casters" in those settings usually lack armor.

[momothefiddler]

So... traits. I'm still a little confused so I want to present a concrete example so you guys can tell me where I go off the tracks. So, I'm a 1st level Half-Elf. I start with all the Racial traits printed between the text "Standard Racial Traits" and "Alternate Racial Traits" on this page, right? I can then wade into Alternate Racial Traits and Subtypes to swap some stuff out.

In addition to those standard racial traits, I've got 2 additional traits I can assign (probably, depending on the DM). Now, since I'm a half-elf, and thus both a human and an elf, I can go dumpster diving through the elf and human lists as well as the half-elf and non-race specific traits... right? So I can grab World Traveler despite not being human, but I can't grab Bonus Feat or Skilled off the Human Standard Traits, right?

All correct, but you're probably gonna get yourself in trouble if you keep conflating the two. They really, literally are two entirely different things. One is "the pieces that make up your race, mechanically" and the other is "roughly half a feat" and they happen to share the name but like spell levels and character levels they really aren't the same thing and the sooner you stop thinking of them as such (even subconsciously) the better off you'll be.

[Dean]

Am I the only person who finds making 3E characters fun and making Pathfinder characters exhausting?

The idea of getting to turn 10 times as many toggles with a tenth of the impact apiece is really tiring and dull. Racial traits, traits, and class archetypes have created just enough additions to an already long character creation process that I no longer find it enjoyable. Abilities, race, racial traits, traits, class, class archetypes, feats, and skills is too many things to ask me about before I'm level 1.

[DSMatticus]

You are not. Pathfinder character creation is pretty excruciating. There is a ton of shit and it is all shit. You could cut 90% of the things in the PFSRD and people wouldn't even notice except to bitch about how there aren't enough things nobody uses "feed me bloat!" I know part of it is just that I'm older and less bullshit-tolerant, but there is also so much more bullshit.