Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Silent Wayfarer]

This was meant as a quick aside, you assholes make me want to start a thread about all the horrible shit Gygax wrote.

I know he was an asshole, I want to know just how much of an asshole he waa.

[OgreBattle]

A Gygax quote thread would be nice, we already have an old thread for SKR quotables: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54952& ... &start=100

[mlangsdorf]

First things first, Tussock is always wrong. Gygax is actually talking about OD&D not AD&D.

While that's true about that quote, he repeats the point in the AD&D DMG: "One of the things stressed in the original game of D&D was the importance of recording game time with respect to each and every player character in a campaign. In AD&D it is emphasized even more: YOU CANNOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT." (emphasis in the original). Text is p 37 of Revised December 1979 edition of the AD&D DMG, so pretend that quote is in sans serif type if that's not the font you normally use.

[vagrant]

Jesus fucking christ. No, that was not the expectation at all.

Notice how Gygax says the player can't play for 3 months. Also note how that punishment is meant to stop the player from taking those actions in the future.

This was meant as a quick aside, you assholes make me want to start a thread about all the horrible shit Gygax wrote.

The wizard who spends six months writing scrolls and enchanting items is OUT of the campaign for six months, he cannot play during these six game months,...

He didn't specify player, just a generic he as a pointer to wizard. In OD&D you were expected to have a stable of characters. So while Gygax was a dickface, he wasn't being a complete dickface in this particular instance.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Is there a Pathfinder FAQ entry or some shit that says what happens when you as one class get a class feature that lets you pick features from another class? I want to know exactly what you get when that happens.

[ishy]

In OD&D you were expected to have a stable of characters.

No.

Is there a Pathfinder FAQ entry or some shit that says what happens when you as one class get a class feature that lets you pick features from another class? I want to know exactly what you get when that happens.

Well you can't get archetype features for one (see this faq)

Archetypes and Gaining Powers: If an archetype like wildblooded sorcerer grants new class features like bloodline powers, domain powers, or the like, if I don’t have that archetype, can I use feats like Eldritch Heritage or Believer’s Boon and choose the powers granted by the archetype.

No. These powers only exist for the archetypes that grant them. This is particularly important because in some cases, the archetype might trade out non-parallel features to gain those powers. For example, a fey sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype trades out both her bloodline arcana and her 1st-level power to gain a new 1st-level power, but a non-sorcerer using a feat to gain a 1st-level power never had the bloodline arcana to begin with.

[Username17]

Taking class features out of other classes is not a thing that makes sense in Pathfinder. I mean, the FAQ throws a temper tantrum about people trying to pick up the Sorcerer class feature "Bloodline Power," which is one of the eight class features that a Sorcerer actually has. But here's my favorite class feature of the Sorcerer class:

Spells

A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level.

Table: Sorcerer Spells Known

Obviously, your DM is going to choke on a cheeto if you select that class feature as the one you want to grab. But the point is that class features were never intended to be hot swapped and are obviously not written with hotswapping potential in mind. For fuck's sake, one of the adjacent class features is "Cantrips," which instead of covering all of a Sorcerer's 1st through 9th level spells is just their 0th level spells. The refresh rate is different, so those spells are in a whole different class feature, while all the others are in one.

-Username17

[rasmuswagner]

Sometimes you explicitly gain the ability to use your level in the emulating class, or your character level if you're using a feat, as your level in the emulated class. Sometimes you don't. Whether or not these situations are intenionally meaningfully different is unknown and unknowable.

[Koumei]

Is there a Pathfinder FAQ entry or some shit that says what happens when you as one class get a class feature that lets you pick features from another class? I want to know exactly what you get when that happens.

Might need to go into specifics there. Do you mean things like when one of the Ninja Jutsu Trick options is "Select one of the following Rogue Talents", and your question relates to "This one makes a call to your Rogue level, what do"? Because any reasonable developer would have specified in the rules what that does, or at least put it in the FAQ quickly, so I'm sure they haven't.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Koumei: yes to your first and only question.

Specifically, I'm wondering about three situations:
One, if I take three levels in Inheritor's Crusader as a cleric and then pick up a Silver Smite Bracelet, is the level of my Smite Evil 3, 4, or 7?

If I'm a Spirit Guide Oracle and I pick up the Arcane Enlightenment hex, are those spells on my oracle list? I know that they're not part of my spells-known, but if they're on my spell list then when I level up and shit I can pick them from my list to my spells-known. The 'shaman' part is the sticking part, though.

If I'm a 12th level cleric with the Rage subdomain, can I use the feat Extra Rage Power to pick up World Serpent Spirit?

[momothefiddler]

I dunno about the first and third, but iirc the ruling on the second one ended up being something along the lines of "Yeah! You can totally add them to your Shaman spell list! Too bad you don't have any Shaman spell slots, fucker."

If I have some time tonight I'll try to find the actual FAQ bit...

[Silent Wayfarer]

Koumei: yes to your first and only question.

Specifically, I'm wondering about three situations:
One, if I take three levels in Inheritor's Crusader as a cleric and then pick up a Silver Smite Bracelet, is the level of my Smite Evil 3, 4, or 7?

7, because Champion of Honor stacks with paladin level to determine the effects of a smite, not the number of smites, which is 0. However, Silver Smite Bracers increase your effective paladin level (of 0) by 4 for the purpose of the smite evil class feature. So you not only get a couple of smites from it but a boost to its power from CoH.

If I'm a 12th level cleric with the Rage subdomain, can I use the feat Extra Rage Power to pick up World Serpent Spirit?

No, because you only have a modified Rage class feature and not the actual Rage Power class feature. Which is specifically called out in the requirements.

[momothefiddler]

Okay so I misremembered and it wasn't slots it was lists but anyway the FAQ I was talking about is here. It's the one that fucked up Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) shenanigans.

On the other hand, any MC who's gonna pull that shit on you could much more easily point out that Bonded Spirit by RAW only lets you use your CHA for WIS and your Oracle level, not your Oracle spell list or anything else that would even remotely give you anything at all from Arcane Enlightenment. The way everything's written, it's a house rule to apply it anyway, so shitty FAQs about shitty wording aren't really relevant at this point.

[ishy]

Specifically, I'm wondering about three situations:
One, if I take three levels in Inheritor's Crusader as a cleric and then pick up a Silver Smite Bracelet, is the level of my Smite Evil 3, 4, or 7?

You don't have the smite evil ability, thus you can't smite. Also Bracers of the avenging knight are cheaper and better than the silver smite bracelet.

[souran]

Now that we have gotten to see what the pathfinder designers would do if they were "unchained" from the restrictions of 3.5 compatibility we now know that what they would do would be to....create a bunch of terrible house rules that fail to address a single central issue.

Truely amzing. However, after having read through pathfinder unchained I think I now understand something I didn't before.

THERE WILL BE NO PATHFINDER 2ND EDITION

There simply will never be a P2E. Instead, they will do something that clearly invalidates older books, institue rules from newer books as part mandatory for pathfinder society, and then say that "every" book is still usuable.

I would expect there to be a 2016/2017 annoucement for an "Advanced Core Rulebook." This book will do a revision to the fighter (Advanced Fighter), Ranger (Advanced Ranger), and possibly the Cavalier (Advanced Cavalier). These new builds will be incompatible with most existing materials, but everything going forward will be compatible with them. But just like how you can keep playing a core rulebook monk you don't have to ("If you like your current Rogue, you can keep your current Rogue!").

I expect that over the next couple of years we will get some sort of light revision to every non or poor caster class. However, there will be no change to the unerlying system unless/until Paizo goes broke trying to pay for Pathfinder Online.

[Otakusensei]

Okay so I misremembered and it wasn't slots it was lists but anyway the FAQ I was talking about is here. It's the one that fucked up Improved Eldritch Heritage(Arcane) shenanigans.

On the other hand, any MC who's gonna pull that shit on you could much more easily point out that Bonded Spirit by RAW only lets you use your CHA for WIS and your Oracle level, not your Oracle spell list or anything else that would even remotely give you anything at all from Arcane Enlightenment. The way everything's written, it's a house rule to apply it anyway, so shitty FAQs about shitty wording aren't really relevant at this point.

I don't really see anything in the Spells class ability of Oracle that wouldn't allow this. They throw Divine spells form the cleric list, from which they draw their spells known. The method of casting references the spells known, not the spell list. Slots, spell or otherwise, are never mentioned.

I see what the devs are trying to do with that ruling, but I can't figure out why. Why not try fixing the initial confusion in the Spells section that caused the problem in the first place? Because clearly it has some double secret mechanics not in the original text.

Edit: Holy shit, just read down to Jason's answer about the same wording on a Bard ability and how that ability working as intended would require a new FAQ. Who are these people and why are they allowed to make these calls?

[virgil]

Taking class features out of other classes is not a thing that makes sense in Pathfinder. I mean, the FAQ throws a temper tantrum about people trying to pick up the Sorcerer class feature "Bloodline Power," which is one of the eight class features that a Sorcerer actually has. But here's my favorite class feature of the Sorcerer class:

Where are these abilities coming from that say something as broad as "choose any class feature from another class"?

[momothefiddler]

I don't really see anything in the Spells class ability of Oracle that wouldn't allow this. They throw Divine spells form the cleric list, from which they draw their spells known. The method of casting references the spells known, not the spell list. Slots, spell or otherwise, are never mentioned.

Here's the sticky bit:

the hex[/url]]The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare.

If "the list of shaman spells she can prepare" isn't the same as "her Shaman spell list" then I'm throwing up my hands and going home. In retrospect, that makes the FAQ not relevant, since it's talking about known->list, not list->known.

I think at that point a RAW reading would either
a)give you shaman spells that you could prepare if you had shaman slots, but you don't, or
b)give you nothing, the same way a bonus to your natural armor gives you nothing if you have no natural armor to start

Edit: Holy shit, just read down to Jason's answer about the same wording on a Bard ability and how that ability working as intended would require a new FAQ. Who are these people and why are they allowed to make these calls?

Yyyyyep. My first post on the topic was meant to be more of a sardonic "Yeah but it's a FAQ so LOL" but halfway through turned into actually finding the rule because some people run by the FAQ (I don't know how or why, though).

[ishy]

Edit: Holy shit, just read down to Jason's answer about the same wording on a Bard ability and how that ability working as intended would require a new FAQ. Who are these people and why are they allowed to make these calls?

Interesting note: one of the reasons why SKR quit working for Paizo, was that he was forced to defend FAQ rulings he did not personally agree with.

[Pixels]

A big problem is that the FAQ flows straight from the designers. Errata and FAQs need to go through the same vetting process as the published books, doubly so because they are given the force of law for Pathfinder Society play. Paizo needs an editor or QA who can tell whether it's crap or not, and aren't a stubborn asshole driven to double down on stupidity.

[souran]

A big problem is that the FAQ flows straight from the designers. Errata and FAQs need to go through the same vetting process as the published books, doubly so because they are given the force of law for Pathfinder Society play. Paizo needs an editor or QA who can tell whether it's crap or not, and aren't a stubborn asshole driven to double down on stupidity.

This is doubly stupid because the "real" rules to pathfinder are effectively the Pathfinder Society Rules. If a spell/feat/ability/etc is either to complicated, broken, or easily abused that it can't be in pathfinder society WHY THE HELL WAS THE RULE WRITTEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Anyway, the fact that the FAQ changes based on the mood of the person who is at that moment writting answers to the questions means that its a terrible document. Further, even though it is the go to rules question source for PFS play it can't possibly really be used because it changes to often and says things that are just WRONG to often to be of any use.

[malak]

Interesting note: one of the reasons why SKR quit working for Paizo, was that he was forced to defend FAQ rulings he did not personally agree with.

Bah, that's just minimum expected professional behaviour. You can fight a decision internally as much as you want, but never carry that disagreement into the public.

[Kaelik]

Interesting note: one of the reasons why SKR quit working for Paizo, was that he was forced to defend FAQ rulings he did not personally agree with.

Bah, that's just minimum expected professional behaviour. You can fight a decision internally as much as you want, but never carry that disagreement into the public.

Not really. There is a crucial distinction between "not shit talking" and "told it is your job to defend the stupid shit someone else said" and very few people actually have that second one, and they are almost always PR people who have experience doing that.

[Aryxbez]

Interesting note: one of the reasons why SKR quit working for Paizo, was that he was forced to defend FAQ rulings he did not personally agree with.

Bah, that's just minimum expected professional behaviour. You can fight a decision internally as much as you want, but never carry that disagreement into the public.

I actually learned about this back in Late September. I figured nobody here would believe him when he said he had to argue decisions he didn't agree with, but being the Jason guy. Makes me wonder, would getting rid of Jason allow for Pathfinder to improve in the future? (Unlikely I know, given unchained apparently was that chance)

[RelentlessImp]

Interesting note: one of the reasons why SKR quit working for Paizo, was that he was forced to defend FAQ rulings he did not personally agree with.

Well, he defends the shit he writes with the same sort of stubborn-headed wrongness, so I don't see why that should have been a problem for him.