The Dark Ages of the hobby

[Prak]

Not to mention that RaHoWa isn't even successful in its goal of being "Racist Propaganda: the RPG" both due to lacking mechanics for even using weapons, and the "enemies" actually being far stronger and more powerful than the "protagonists."

Another example is FATAL. Silva, use the search to find my review. It's decently successful at its stated goal of creating a world that replicates the Shit Ages of humanity (setting aside the fact that if the world was restricted to just western Europe, with nothing outside that existing, it would be very different) with a system devoted to tiny minutiae. That doesn't mean it's not an execrable game for many reasons. One, the least damning, perhaps, of which being that it is so minutiae laden that it's not playable. Not because there isn't a system there, there is, but it would take at least an entire waking day to make a character, and then there's a very real chance characters would die in the first encounter, need to spend another day making characters, and then die in the first encounter again.

[Kaelik]

I disagree. If someone wants to create Racial Holy War: the roleplaying game so what ? There is already Racial Holy War: the Movie and Racial Holy War: the music and Racial Holy War: the TV Show. Whats the problem with that ? We live in a world where any individual is free to choose what to consume. If you dont like it, simply dont play it.

No, what you are saying is that in addition to not playing it, I can't call it objectively a bad game with an objectively bad goal. Which it is. Both. So either:

1) You think that people creating a game for the purpose of racism is totally okay and not bad. In which case you are a monstrous piece of shit.
2) You accept that some goals are actually shitty, and then you have to either justify why you don't have to defend the goals of other shitty games, or you have to admit that questioning the goals is a valid thing to do.

Which leads me to:

But most important, your analogy makes no sense because all games I cited have fairly average thematics. So there is no point in bringing Racial Holy Wars to the discussion.

...

Anyway, I still don't see the point in bringing that to the discussion, as the kind of morally questionable games represented by RaHoWa comprises a tiny part of the whole.

The point is that Racial Holy War is an objectively bad goal to have when creating an RPG. And exactly like I used "graphic rape in your game" as an example of something we could all agree doesn't belong in a game in a different conversation to show how the argument applies to comparatively way less bad Dragon Riding, so too am I now using Racial War as a bad goal to set up the argument to show why the comparatively less bad "A Shitty game for Shit people who like being a dick DM who makes up disempowering shit to fuck over the PCs while the players have literally no idea what the consequences of any of their actions" is still a shit goal that is only ever going to make shitty games.

[silva]

Kaelik, even if you find *World games not to your liking, I just proved there are tons of games out there with different goals and styles, including your favorite class-level-based-tactical-kill-shit-and-take-their-stuff-fantasy, aka D&D-likes.

So what is your answer now ?

*Edit* Prak, the same reasoning applies. Duh FATAL is EEEVIL! So what ? Its just a fringe game anyway, and not representative at all to the rest of the market. Its like saying modern cinema is doomed because brazilian movies are crap.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, even if you find *World games not to your liking, I just proved there are tons of games out there with different goals and styles, including your favorite class-level-based-tactical-kill-shit-and-take-their-stuff-fantasy, aka D&D-likes.

0) It is not that shitworld games are not to my liking, just like it is not that racial war games are not to my liking. It is that those things are both objectively terrible things that makes the universe worse by their existence.

1) You did not "prove" that there are tons of games with different goals and styles including my favorites X, where you demonstrate that you don't know what my favorite X is. You listed a bunch of games released withing the last, 5? 10? years. Some of the ones you listed under one category could easily fall under other categories. Some of the categories don't make sense. Some of the games don't rightly fit in any niche but "blatant cash grab shitty hack game made with an IP attached that is doesn't even represent."

2) Even if there were tons of games being released of all the possible styles and goals, that would still not mean anything, because while that might mean that some small fraction of the games being released passed question 1, they would still have to pass question 2 to be a good game, which they do not.

3) It would take more than one good game to not be the Dark Ages. Percentage is also important, there was some asshole king living a good life during the dark ages, it was just shit for everyone else. So yes, if there are like two good games in the last 3 years instead of zero, but forty million shit games, that is still bad.

So what is your answer now ?

My answer to what? The Dark Ages? Still fucking right now. Because every single game that has come out in the last three years is a shitty piece of shit.

[silva]

0) It is not that shitworld games are not to my liking... It is that those things are both objectively terrible things that makes the universe worse by their existence.

Oh, I see..

"What I like is great! What you like is shit".

"Horror movies are great! Dramas are shit"

etc.

So, by this argument D&D3E is objectively shitty too because I (and a lot other people) dont like what it tries to do. So, in the end, all games will be shitty and good at the same time because most games have fans, and thus impartial critical analysis of games will be impossible, and this whole discussion of Dark Ages and Golden Ages etc. is inane because every age will be golden and dark at the same time.

[Kaelik]

0) It is not that shitworld games are not to my liking... It is that those things are both objectively terrible things that makes the universe worse by their existence.

Oh, I see..

"What I like is great! What you like is shit".

"Horror movies are great! Dramas are shit"

No, once again, some things are a matter of taste, other things are a matter of objective shittiness. Racist war against minorities is objectively a bad fucking thing. Disempowering war against the concept of player agency is objectively bad. It does not follow that therefore all opinions are equally correct because some people like racism and hate player agency. It just follows that those people are fucking wrong.

[silva]

Yep, and this exact reasoning allow me to say the same horrible things about D&D3e. Thus D&D3e is objectively shitty.

[Kaelik]

Yep, and this exact reasoning allow me to say the same horrible things about D&D3e. Thus D&D3e is objectively shitty.

Your ability to say things does not make them true. That is the crucial point. Yes, if you accept that there is no such thing in the universe as correct and incorrect, then sure, everything is equally vaguely half true. But once you accept that some things are true, and other things are not true, the distinction becomes literally 100% of the point.

Why you have chosen to die on the hill of "White Supremacist Racial War games are just as good as all other games" is confusing as fuck to me, because there are thousands of less stupid hills to die on.

You could argue, as you have in the past, that ShitWorld isn't a player agency killing mess. You could argue, as you have in the past, that players having no agency isn't shit. You would still be wrong, but at least you wouldn't arguing in favor of fucking Racist war against minorities.

[silva]

Nah the point was never RaHoWa or WhaTeVa, and to bring this up is a sign of your lack of arguments. The point is that the sole reason Im hearing here for defending a supposed dark age being is... "Because I dont like these new games". Which is as inocuous for any attempt of fair criticism as "I dont like horror, thus all horror movies must be objectively bad".

Call me up again if you manage to produce a real argument.

[Smirnoffico]

For all its merits and flaws (ok, for all its flaws) AW was published five years ago. Even if we somehow agree that *W is a new word in rpg, it's not new and derivative games are not innovative. Which raises the question: what are the good new games out there? Almost all of the games on Silva's list are 5+ years old or/and new editions of older games. Even AW is a byproduct of indie-obsession of early-mid 00-s.

As was already mentioned, the number of games would only rise - internet can't run out of space, so if we're measuring the ages by number of games available, today is a stone age at best compared to what will be in 10 years, so it's a poor measuring stick.

If we take quality and state of the industry, the picture is much more dim. The titans have fallen and no Olympians have come to replace them. If we take any genre niche, it's a mess. D&D is steaming shit, WoD is steaming shit, current edition of GURPS is 10 years old, Don't even get me started on Shadowrun and I can't even remember a name for a once-good sci-fi game other than Star Wars, which was never good.

The industry is shrinking and not making a lot of money. I have some insight into WotC situation and don't even consider D&D as possible income.

Whether we want or not, the hobby lives and dies by it's giants. Even if indie developers and smaller games produce gems, they would be nowhere without mainstream. We won't have Journey without EA Sports. And honestly, I can't name even a half-decent indie game that was released in last three-five years.

[silva]

Smirnoffico, I see the videogame and tabletop industries in a pretty similar shape, with the mainstream giants getting a beat from the indies: Hotline Miami, Journey, Terraria, Braid, FATE, Apocalypse World hacks, Numenera and 13th Age are kicking the ass of Call of Duties, D&D5, Shadowrun 5 and WoD.

This state of affairs is only problem if youre a fan of the Call of Duties. For everybody else, its a pretty good period to be gaming.

[Kaelik]

The point is that the sole reason Im hearing here for defending a supposed dark age being is... "Because I dont like these new games".

You are really dumb. I have presented the issue very clearly:

1) If a game has an objectively shitty goal, such as depriving players of agency, or condoning the murder of minorities in the name of racism, then it is a shitty game.

2) If a game fails at whatever reasonable goals it has, it is a shitty game.

3) If the proportion of shitty games to good ones is really high, then we are in the Dark Age of the Hobby.

Absolutely none of that relies on my subjective preferences. I don't like Horror, but there are lots of Horror, books, movies, and board games that I consider good. There are probably even good horror RPGs, although I bet none where made in the last two fucking years, because the trends in RPGs right now are garbage that taints everything. Why are you continuing to die on the hill that racism is totally cool if people want to be racist, but it is just an opinion, so it is no reason to be mad?

[hyzmarca]

The point is points are:

• Relativism is wrong. When you say that things are good if they succeed at their goals, you are wrong. If something succeeds at bad goals it is bad. RaHoWa is the most obvious example because (hopefully) we can all agree that its goals (of starting a race war between whites and blacks) is a bad goal to have.
• You are a shit weasel and need to shut the fuck up.

-Username17

I've got to disagree with this. Triumph des Willens is an awesome entertaining, and inspirational movie. Made by Nazis to glorify Naziism. To call it a bad film misses the boat.

Evil can be beautiful and alluring, and it's important to recognize that.

RaHoWa is just a terrible game, though.

[codeGlaze]

[...]Otherwise other popular stuff I've seen, seems to be rehash of older games, or rulesets that weren't particularly good to begin with (Titansgrave using DA-RPG mechanics).[...]

Fantasy AGE might be either salvageable or something to steal a bunch of basics from.

We just ran through character creation the other night and I helped my wife resolve a brief PvP clash to help a player understand combat basics.

The jury is still out, but I'm thinking of trying to do a review once she runs a one-shot or something.

[silva]

Another point some people bring to defend the "dark age" is that selling numbers are low / retailers are dying.

So what ?

Nowadays we have a fuckton of good, FREE games around, put out both by wanabees and established authors. Lady Blackbird, Eclipse Phase and Dungeon World are some good examples. I bet this very community have put out some good games for free in the last 5 years or so (Finality or After Dawn or something ? ). One important thing to remember is that the industry is not the hobby. We are in the self-publishing age, folks. Looking at the "giants" commercial performance as the sole metric of health for the industry dont work anymore.

[Smirnoffico]

Smirnoffico, I see the videogame and tabletop industries in a pretty similar shape, with the mainstream giants getting a beat from the indies: Hotline Miami, Journey, Terraria, Braid, FATE, Apocalypse World hacks, Numenera and 13th Age are kicking the ass of Call of Duties, D&D5, Shadowrun 5 and WoD.

This state of affairs is only problem if youre a fan of the Call of Duties. For everybody else, its a pretty good period to be gaming.

No one is kicking EA's ass or any other major publisher ass. They are doing just fine. The whole Sony is alive thanks to PS sales and pays for indie development. Microsoft finally got itself a head that knows that video games have evolved beyond arcades. There is a valid concern for new IPs in game industry, but still it has a good number of new titles.

And I really like how you noticed only the last sentence in my post %)

[Kaelik]

Another point some people bring to defend the "dark age" is

Oh look, silva lost an argument and is changing the subject because his sole goal in life it to name drop as many garbage RPGs as possible in a thread as he can get away with without getting mad, so his Indie Paymasters give him more money.

[Whipstitch]

We've always had a surfeit of free materials available given that it's a very hands-on hobby. The only thing that hits me as really different now is that the Monte Cooks of the world can get away with openly discussing how they're tired of doing the hard development work and somehow get applauded for it. This is a puzzling thing to me because while fluff and theme is certainly important and all I find that it's a lot easier to steal settings wholesale than it is to math hammer your own resolution systems. It's like they have a completely different concept of when a professional is required than I do.

[Leress]

Smirnoffico, I see the videogame and tabletop industries in a pretty similar shape, with the mainstream giants getting a beat from the indies: Hotline Miami, Journey, Terraria, Braid, FATE, Apocalypse World hacks, Numenera and 13th Age are kicking the ass of Call of Duties, D&D5, Shadowrun 5 and WoD.

This state of affairs is only problem if youre a fan of the Call of Duties. For everybody else, its a pretty good period to be gaming.

Can you back that shit up?

Units sold

Journey: 0.18 million

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/45780/journey/

Call of Duty Advance Warfare: 8.88 million

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/81798/call ... d-warfare/

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/81795/call ... d-warfare/

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/81796/call ... d-warfare/

So the answer would be no, they are not beating the AAA publishers. Now if you want to talk about an indie that sold a lot that would be Minecraft.

So, Silva, could you kindly shut up about things you don't know about and just pull out of your ass.