Lo5R will be a LCG now

[ghost whistler]

I'm amazed that someone is either that stupid or that devoted to pretending to be stupid.

No you're just trolling.

[erik]

Fine. I guess I was giving too much benefit of the doubt by considering that he may just be a bit stupid in not knowing how to argue in a discussion. This just smacks of deliberate trolling now.

/ignore

Arguing with someone who won't engage and just shifts goal posts... it's arguing with a 3 year old.

[ghost whistler]

Fine. I guess I was giving too much benefit of the doubt by considering that he may just be a bit stupid in not knowing how to argue in a discussion. This just smacks of deliberate trolling now.

/ignore

Arguing with someone who won't engage and just shifts goal posts... it's arguing with a 3 year old.

Yes, everything that you don't like or agree with is trolling. Meanwhile it's ok to subject me to abuse to do anything to avoid answering a simple question of providing evidence. I think you need to wind your collective necks in and grow the fuck up.

You are accusing the people that wrote L5R of being racist, and you treat a request to back up that claim with such disdain that you think it's ok to mock and insult the person asking for evidence. then when that evidence is finally provided and subsequently discussed it's clear that it isn't racist at all but the claim isn't retracted and you pout and whine that the goalposts are being shifted or that I'm trolling you.

You behave like children. Someone who asks you to provide evidence for claims that it is arrogantly assumed must be accepted on the face of it is blocked by the person making those claims along with accusations of 'threadshitting'.

You make the fucking claim, you back it up or shut the fuck up. Calling people racist just becaus eyou don't like their work is about as low and as cowardly as it gets - especially from a forum of so-called game designers. Perhaps we should all treat your work the same way.

[erik]

I'm sure that I've just missed out on another fantastic post that baselessly ignores and dismisses all arguments while refusing to make any assertions or back anything up.


Moving on.

Do any of the Lo5R books have so much as a sidebar noting that treatment of so-called Eta is terrible but that it's a setting trait they opted to not ignore? I recall Deadlands did a short disclaimer and directing remarks regarding slavery and racism.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Do any of the Lo5R books have so much as a sidebar noting that treatment of so-called Eta is terrible but that it's a setting trait they opted to not ignore?

Not as far as I've ever seen. They're mostly just invisibled because the game's perspective is so aristocratic.

It's worth noting that in the 4e main book there's a section about how Rokugan is equal-opportunity for men and women, but that you might want to retcon it into being an oppressive patriarchy instead for [reason not given]. And then it spends four paragraphs telling you how to implement that by wanking out a description of just how oppressed women were in the history of a world that isn't the game setting.

[Longes]

Do any of the Lo5R books have so much as a sidebar noting that treatment of so-called Eta is terrible but that it's a setting trait they opted to not ignore? I recall Deadlands did a short disclaimer and directing remarks regarding slavery and racism.

You are a fancypants nobleman who loses Honor for practicing peasant skills. Make a wild guess.

[ghost whistler]

Do any of the Lo5R books have so much as a sidebar noting that treatment of so-called Eta is terrible but that it's a setting trait they opted to not ignore?

Not as far as I've ever seen. They're mostly just invisibled because the game's perspective is so aristocratic.

It's worth noting that in the 4e main book there's a section about how Rokugan is equal-opportunity for men and women, but that you might want to retcon it into being an oppressive patriarchy instead for [reason not given]. And then it spends four paragraphs telling you how to implement that by wanking out a description of just how oppressed women were in the history of a world that isn't the game setting.

They mention it is equal opportunity so that people buying the game can play it, rather than limiting their game to half the population.

Eta is not a racist term, comparing it to the n word is apples and oranges.

Assuming facts not in evidence just comes across as desperate. There is no need to explicitly state that in modern Japan the word eta is an insult, why would there be? It's not a racial slur, if it was the Japanese would be using it against their own which is absurd. It's just a word that's carried over from the feudal time that inspired Rokugan and is now an insult, like the word 'pleb'.

Hardly anywhere near the same as the N word.

[ghost whistler]

Do any of the Lo5R books have so much as a sidebar noting that treatment of so-called Eta is terrible but that it's a setting trait they opted to not ignore?

Not as far as I've ever seen. They're mostly just invisibled because the game's perspective is so aristocratic.

Odd choice of word.

It's a game about playing Samurai. Is that racist now too?

[Grek]

That sidebar, on page 37 for those interested, is less "Here's how to accurately roleplay your samurai a sexist asian dude!" and more "Canon Rokugan isn't a sexist society. If you absolutely must play Rokugan as 'historically accurate' in its level of sexism, here's how to do so while being minimally disruptive to the rest of the setting. Rule number one: don't do this unless everyone at the table has explicitly agreed to it." While you could make an argument for leaving it out, having "official rules" for how to run that sort of campaign (including official rules saying not to if anyone at the table objects) probably helps to prevent GMs from reading up on feudal japan in preparation for running the game and importing all of the historical sexism through a naive desire for realismz.

As far as Eta goes, the game presents them as a caste of people who are considered unclean because they've been forced to take jobs involving corpses, garbage, blood, sewage and other disease-carrying items and as being discriminated against due to a reputation for being filthy and disease-ridden. Its made clear in the setting fluff that nobody wants to be an Eta because you're forced to be a garbage collector for your whole life and because everyone who isn't an Eta will treat you like a shit-smeared subhuman. And not, for example, because Eta are actually less than human in any way.

Is that racist? It certainly is a setting element about racism. But I don't think it is a setting element that makes the authors or the players of L5R a bunch of racists by virtue of its inclusion in the setting.

[virgil]

Meanwhile it's ok to subject me to abuse to do anything to avoid answering a simple question of providing evidence.

Show me the evidence that I called anything you said to be gish gallop. Or retract your statement as erroneous. Whichever.

[angelfromanotherpin]

And not, for example, because Eta are actually less than human in any way.

Previous editions of L5R actually explicitly and mechanically enforced the social strata of the Empire. Minor clans had fewer techniques in their martial schools. People not from a named noble family didn't get a family attribute bonus. The rules for making an actual Ashigaru character were absurdly harsh (all your stats start at 1 instead of 2, fewer customization points, a big pile of skills/advantages/disadvantages forbidden, you get an 8-point disadvantage for no compensation). The philosophy there was pretty plain: the prejudices of Rokugan are in-universe correct.

[ghost whistler]

As far as Eta goes, the game presents them as a caste of people who are considered unclean because they've been forced to take jobs involving corpses, garbage, blood, sewage and other disease-carrying items and as being discriminated against due to a reputation for being filthy and disease-ridden. Its made clear in the setting fluff that nobody wants to be an Eta because you're forced to be a garbage collector for your whole life and because everyone who isn't an Eta will treat you like a shit-smeared subhuman. And not, for example, because Eta are actually less than human in any way.

It would be the class you are born into, like any feudal setting. Of course people won't want to do it, much peasants in Arthurian Britain don't really want to live in the muck scraping by paying taxes for the Lord.

The reason people don't like this class is implicit in the text: you are handling unclean stuff, blood and flesh and waste. That's all. No racism involved.

Is that racist? It certainly is a setting element about racism.

how on earth have you drawn such a stupid conclusion?

[virgil]

The reason people don't like this class is implicit in the text: you are handling unclean stuff, blood and flesh and waste. That's all. No racism involved.

Judging by the fact that the Burakumin still face discrimination today, and the fact it's an inheritable status, that certainly looks like racism to me.

Hey, ghost whistler, feel like proving or retracting your claim that I said anything was gish gallop yet?

[nockermensch]

The reason people don't like this class is implicit in the text: you are handling unclean stuff, blood and flesh and waste. That's all. No racism involved.

How does your rosy theory deal with the fact that decades after their families stopped being forced to handle shit, the descendants of the Eta still suffer prejudice?

[shlominus]

ghost whistler, you do realise that a lot of people consider discrimination of castes a form of racism, don't you? google is your friend.

but let's keep the terms seperate, if you wish. then the game has problems with casteism as well. feel better now?

[Almaz]

The reason people don't like this class is implicit in the text: you are handling unclean stuff, blood and flesh and waste. That's all. No racism involved.

That's kind of like saying the reason people disliked Africans is because they did menial labor such as picking cotton that was beneath most people, and were slaves, "that's all, no racism involved."

I mean, the problem is obviously a whole lot more visible in the other case, but it's... not very different. You're still subject to the "one-drop rule." Even if you've done fairly well for yourself (especially if), people will actually do the research into your background just so they can discriminate against you.

[Longes]

I'd like to point out, that in the world of Rokugan being an Eta is something you are doomed to be forever, throughout all your reincarnations. Even death won't save you from being a shitty non-person.

L5R Wiki[/url]]An Eta could be killed with almost zero consequences, although someone who slew an Eta might have to answer to the Eta's lord if the circumstances were unusual. Eta were very skittish and often did not socialize much, and when they did, a lot of groveling or caution was involved. Since they had the lowest place in the Celestial Order even Heimin could be abusive to an Eta with no consequences. Eta were never to speak to Samurai unless spoken to and asked for a reply. Eta were generally pitied as their station would nearly never allow them to move higher into the Celestial Order and thus their souls were doomed to be forever stuck in their status as non-people.

[ghost whistler]

The reason people don't like this class is implicit in the text: you are handling unclean stuff, blood and flesh and waste. That's all. No racism involved.

How does your rosy theory deal with the fact that decades after their families stopped being forced to handle shit, the descendants of the Eta still suffer prejudice?

I've no idea, I on't live in Japan.

Instead please explain how this has anything to do with racism, specifically as evidece that L5R is racist.

[ghost whistler]

ghost whistler, you do realise that a lot of people consider discrimination of castes a form of racism, don't you? google is your friend.

but let's keep the terms seperate, if you wish. then the game has problems with casteism as well. feel better now?

Are you seriously asking me if i think prejudice is acceptable? What kind of twat are you?

[ghost whistler]

I'd like to point out, that in the world of Rokugan being an Eta is something you are doomed to be forever, throughout all your reincarnations. Even death won't save you from being a shitty non-person.

L5R Wiki[/url]]An Eta could be killed with almost zero consequences, although someone who slew an Eta might have to answer to the Eta's lord if the circumstances were unusual. Eta were very skittish and often did not socialize much, and when they did, a lot of groveling or caution was involved. Since they had the lowest place in the Celestial Order even Heimin could be abusive to an Eta with no consequences. Eta were never to speak to Samurai unless spoken to and asked for a reply. Eta were generally pitied as their station would nearly never allow them to move higher into the Celestial Order and thus their souls were doomed to be forever stuck in their status as non-people.

So?

Life sucks if you're at the lower end of a caste system in a fictional setting.

Rokugan is also plauged by demons from a place called the Shadowlands. Is that racist too?

Ye are daft

[virgil]

Life sucks if you're at the lower end of a caste system in a fictional setting.

Rokugan is also plauged by demons from a place called the Shadowlands. Is that racist too?

Ye are daft

There are no Shadowlands demons in the real world. There ARE descendants of the eta in the real world, who are still discriminated against. And the demons would still be racist is they strongly exhibited characteristics of RL minorities.

Learn the difference.

Before that though, prove that I called anything a gish gallop or admit that you are wrong.

[ghost whistler]

There are descendants of the slave trade in the world, let me know what Quentin Tarantino thinks of your criticism of Pulp Fiction or Django

[virgil]

Before that though, prove that I called anything a gish gallop or admit that you are wrong.

[virgil]

Ignoring Ghost Whistler, *have* there been any good asian-flavoured RPG settings?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Weapons of the Gods had a pretty good setting, though the mechanics were a hot mess.