Why do "Retro" games sabotage themselves?

[FatR]

Secondly, that is a super abstract system that doesn't fit in games that use concrete timing, which, even when it had stupid fluctuating times, D&D still was and is.

DnD only accidentally uses concrete timing between rounds and days. 3.X certainly doesn't. What any duration between rounds and days actually means (in absence of any coherent rules for tracking time outside of combat) is "your buffs last until GM feels like it is the time for them to go offline". Which with buffs measured in minutes usually means that they last for 1 combat but can be cast as pre-buffs, and with buffs measured in tens of minutes or hours usually means the entire adventuring day or until you reming him yourself that maybe they should go off.

Sunset/Sunrise could be a valid system, but one hour is just an hour, and episode is vague undefined, and combat is super vague undefined.

Actually "an hour" is the most vague undefined time period here (in absence of any in-game timer, again), while the combat is strictly defined. But the point taken. The mid-period between 1 fight and 1 day needs an better definition.

[Kaelik]

DnD only accidentally uses concrete timing between rounds and days. 3.X certainly doesn't. What any duration between rounds and days actually means (in absence of any coherent rules for tracking time outside of combat) is "your buffs last until GM feels like it is the time for them to go offline".

The DM could feel like 24 hours pass too. If you declare that all times that are concrete are not concrete if the DM feels like ignoring them, then there is no such this as concrete rules at all, but since there are, concrete times, even ones you don't like, still exist.

There are rules for how long every action you take is, there are rules for how long it takes to get from A to B. You can ignore all those rules if you want, but they still exist.

As compared to "one combat" which is a duration that no two people could fuck off ever agree on when presented with a wide variety of situations to answer unless they were allowed to argue out each one and come to agreement.

The purpose of defined times is for people to have some method of understanding how long it lasts without asking the DM if it is still up, and most of yours Don't fucking do that. How long a combat is and what counts as the same combat is completely fucking arbitrary and if you ask people about all the situations that come up, they will not agree. This is the exact reason 1/encounter was always a super shitty way or measuring anything. At the point where you are advocating Factotum design, you done fucked up.

But the point taken. The mid-period between 1 fight and 1 day needs an better definition.

Clearly the point was not taken, since you keep talking about a duration that I defined as not existing.

[FatR]

The DM could feel like 24 hours pass too.

The day duration is tied to the rest cycle, which is an easily traceable in-game event.

If you declare that all times that are concrete are not concrete if the DM feels like ignoring them,

I'm just saying how things actually are. Denying reality does not change it.

There are rules for how long every action you take is,

Which are never ever used outside of combat rounds, because the time/effort overhead of calculating how long it would take to cross, say, five corridors and three rooms until the next encounter, searching or not searching them and running or not running into a couple of traps is completely unacceptable. That's before noting that a GM honestly tracking in-game time until buff expiration also needs to use a chronometer to check how long in-game conversations and tactic dicsussions between PCs take. Did any of your GMs even brought a chronometer to the table to track how long in-game banter takes? Yeah, I don't think so.

[Dogbert]

First and foremost... fuck random treasure for the same reason that random stats can go fuck themselves: I don't care for gaming tables turning into a repetition of the Stanford Experiment. Sure, it only happens at tables full of juvenile dudebros, but it happens, and it's common enough to be, you know, a thing.

As for zero-to-hero, let's not mistake character development with a literal growth in power levels (which is not present in most stories). Having said that, every shonen anime series is the same base story, and it's always z2h, same as Star Wars, and other stories. While not every story is a z2h, a reasonable percentage are.

[Kaelik]

The day duration is tied to the rest cycle, which is an easily traceable in-game event.

No, it fucking isn't. That's kind of the fucking point. The day duration is completely untied from the rest cycle, you can rest every hour if you want. If it takes 8 hours to rest like in D&D, you can have two entire sets of "day" buffs up without that cutting into your spell slots at all. Alternatively, you could have a set of day buffs up that do cut into your spells, and an enemy who is deliberately delaying you until they run out.

I'm just saying how things actually are. Denying reality does not change it.

Which are never ever used outside of combat rounds, because the time/effort overhead of calculating how long it would take to cross, say, five corridors and three rooms until the next encounter, searching or not searching them and running or not running into a couple of traps is completely unacceptable. That's before noting that a GM honestly tracking in-game time until buff expiration also needs to use a chronometer to check how long in-game conversations and tactic dicsussions between PCs take. Did any of your GMs even brought a chronometer to the table to track how long in-game banter takes? Yeah, I don't think so.

Uh... are you insane?

1) It in fact, does not take very long at all, you have speeds for characters measured in lengths per round. You have lengths of corridors measured in lengths. Searching takes a round per square. I personally think that is a stupid amount of time, which is one reason why I put houserules for how long it takes to search in Comprehensive Tome Errata. It is trivially easy to measure the time it takes to cross five corridors and three rooms searching or not searching. Or even partially searching if they only search at doors. It's not even remotely hard.

2) You in fact, do not need a "Chronometer" to determine how long in game banter takes, since it can be done as free actions during other actions. Technically, that means your party could recite the entirety of Shakespeare every 30ft, but more specifically it means that unless your party takes way the fuck longer to discuss strategy than normal people, it can take place concurrently with the same amount of time it takes to walk through five corridors and three rooms searching or not searching.

3) Yes, since I have not personally played D&D before the 18th century, every person I have ever played D&D with has had access to some sort of chronometer, usually in the form of a phone that also tells time, occasionally also a watch. As before, that isn't actually necessary, but to seriously ask if my DMs have ever had literally the most ubiquitous technological invention of the last two decades when we play D&D as if anyone ever will answer no makes me question your sanity.

[maglag]

As for zero-to-hero, let's not mistake character development with a literal growth in power levels (which is not present in most stories). Having said that, every shonen anime series is the same base story, and it's always z2h, same as Star Wars, and other stories.

Hellsing (main character is a super vampire who is kept restrained by ancient seals to avoid colateral damage and spends most of the battles taunting opponents before murderizing them in horrible ways). Nobody doubts that Alucard will win, the question is how many other people will die in the process.

Onepunch man (the whole point of the series is that the super hero protagonist is seeking a worthy challenge, and keeps failing at that, nothing surviving more than one of his punches).

Around half the gundam series have the main pilot already start a pro child soldier (Wing, Zero, Double Zero, G, Ironblooded Orphan at the top of my head) and it's actually the "bad" guys playing catch up (crap we need to develop bigger bots to defeat the main character!).

Ronin Kenshiro has the main character be a retired hero just trying to settle down, but keeps getting into conflicts.

Ghost in the Shell also has the main character already be a super badass cyborg from the start.

Good old Getter Robo has a super robot inventor pick the three most badass adult humans he can find to pilot his machines.

And that's just for popular well known shonen animes, I'm sure I can find plenty more exemples if we dig deeper.

[Kaelik]

Maglag are you a fucking idiot?

I mean, at the point where you are pretending that Ghost in the Shell is a Shoenen and that Naruto and Bleach aren't... you are just pretty much the dumbest person in the universe.

I mean, you named a joke anime, and an anime where the main character does power up, but it never occurred to you to think about the 10 most popular Shoenen anime of the last decade?

[maglag]

You know what's arguably even more popular in the last decade? One Piece (Bleach anime got canceled and everything). And there the main character pretty much starts as a super badass right away. And then Luffy goes around recruiting only the dudes/girls who prove to be a super badass out front. Luffy actually ditches the random kid who's a zero and was just slowing his pirate party down. The navigator can fight. The cook can fight. The cute mascot pet turns into a berzeker monster.

Onepunch man has plenty of comedy, but the action scenes are still top notch.

Also I never said that no shonen anime ever is ZtH, just that there's plenty of shonen anime out there that aren't, while Dogbert did claim that every shonen anime ever is ZtH.

(also we all know that the main character of Naruto is actually Sasuke, and he starts as the super prodigy right away )

[Kaelik]

You know what's arguably even more popular in the last decade? One Piece (Bleach anime got canceled and everything).

You can make that argument if you want, and anyone stupid enough to have watched One Piece can argue with you or agree with you, but that wasn't what you did. Instead you argued it based on a powerup anime, a bunch of not Shoenen, and Gundam.

Also I never said that no shonen anime ever is ZtH, just that there's plenty of shonen anime out there that aren't, while Dogbert did claim that every shonen anime ever is ZtH.

Oh, you are just an idiot who thinks it's cool and trendy to pretend you don't understand the concept of hyperbole. Carry on being a fuckface.

[erik]

maglag, (a lot of) those ain't shonen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dnen

Shōnen (少年?), shonen, or shounen, is a kango word that literally means few years and generally refers to a typical boy from elementary school through high school age. It is used in everyday conversation when referring to the period of youth, including in legal wording referencing youth, without regard to gender.

Shonen are where you have the kid heroes/protagonists growing up.

[Kaelik]

While that is often and perhaps even usually the case erik, it has more to do with the protaginist being japanese than it does with an actual requirement of the genre, the genre is battle anime aimed at those kids, not staring those kids. From your own link:

"The term is also used as a demographic term describing media whose target audience consists primarily of adolescent or pre-adolescent boys."

Now, they often feature such characters, but they don't have to.

[erik]

Fair enuff. When I see manga tagged with shounen on mangapark.me, I just assumed it was regarding the protagonist/cast.

[name_here]

Yeah, in manga/anime it refers strictly to the target demographic. They just tend to read stories about people like them, but there are some exceptions. For instance, Nanoha is about magical schoolgirls but is seinen, the 18-30 male demographic. They're not strictly speaking genres; if a manga is published in Shounen Jump it's a shounen regardless of what it's about.

The "ordinary highschool boy discovers he has superpowers, goes on a journey to become stronger" thing is a pretty common shounen plot, but is not the only one by a long shot.

[violence in the media]

One of the problems with randomly generated treasure is that is generates items that should not exist. Particularly, when dealing with combinations of weapon and armor types and abilities, rolling randomly leads to the production of large numbers of items that are so inefficient and inferior compared more common variants that it is difficult to generate a fluff reason for why someone expended the resources necessary to produce the darned things. This problem becomes worse and worse with rulebook bloat and you start generating things that are only of any use to some class variant that isn't being used in the campaign world at all.

Unlike the players, people in the world have no idea what happens when they pump mana into a sword while boiling it in basilisk tears. The players don't actually know what happens either, but they are given a cost/output equation to work with. People in the world don't have that, and are actually doing magical stuff in some sort of weird quasi-engineering sense to make these things.

Outside an established formula, all magic items should be crazy inefficient things that do weird shit. When player characters make new items an aren't copying something they have explicit instructions on how to make, the things they create should have semi-randomized abilities. Why and how does an enchanter make a specific unique enchantment that is ruthlessly efficient from a cost/benefit standpoint? How is that even supposed to work? We're talking about a magical object that is also a prototype, of course it shouldn't be streamlined!

-Username17

Would magic item creation be better if it was randomized somewhat? Say a wizard sits down to craft a magic sword. The wizard will wind up with a magic sword when they're done (it won't turn into a cauldron or something), but they can only influence what abilities it might have rather than dictate them.

You could have the tables be linked to in-game components--like Basilisk Glands, Fairy Wings, or Ogre Tongues--and each table will produce a different range of effects. Or you could do a larger single table and incorporating components could boost the random result higher and into more powerful territory.

So the wizard has all their magical goodies around them for when they go to enchant this sword and roll some number of times on however many tables. Then they wind up with a sword that might turn plants to stone, cast glitterdust, and roll 3d6 for base damage.

[Kaelik]

They first thing you have to understand if you make that the crafting system is that no one is going to spend a feat to be able to do it.

The second thing is that no one is going to sell magic items for gold to buy components to craft with that.

You can definitely have that system, but you have to understand that what you are creating is fundamentally incompatible with people being able to to buy and sell magic items.

[Username17]

You can definitely have that system, but you have to understand that what you are creating is fundamentally incompatible with people being able to to buy and sell magic items.

Uh... you're going to have to go a few more steps in your argument, because I absolutely do not get to your conclusion without substituting "miracles" or "crazy talk" for step two.

If most items are prototypes with semi-randomized abilities, that would not only allow for buying and selling but it would set off the collector spark. Imagine for the moment that every +2 sword had three random picks off the "minor bullshit" charts. Can you honestly tell me that there wouldn't be a lively trade in items that had minor bullshit that was generally agreed to be "better?" I mean, seriously?

Consider the auction houses of like any MMO at all. Items are bought and sold by how much they are desired, and the little wibbly bits on the ends of these things often have a huge impact on total prices. Because supply and demand and shit.

I am really at a total loss as to where you get the prediction that magic items wouldn't be bought and sold if they had unique randomly generated effects. It's totally wrong. It's like you're giving the weather from Bizarroworld.

-Username17

[Prak]

I kind of like that idea for a crafting minigame. Maybe something like a cross-reference chart based on type of source (demon, magical beast, etc) and type of component (magical gland, organ, skin, ornament, etc) that then refers you to a chart? Maybe there's a bit of MTP so that the fluff of the effect can be more directly linked to the actual source of the components (so that a basilisk eye doesn't result in a sword that makes flowers grow, or something), and the better you roll the more control you have, like success tiers that give you more rolls that you choose from.

I could see it being really fucking annoying, but I like it conceptually. As much as I like the straightforwardness of "Ok, here are my numbers, the effect and the spells I'm using to justify it, you cool with it?" method of crafting, it's really flat and uninteresting, and basically, at best, an exercise in getting shit past the DM (or knowing how much or how little your GM will say no to). I suppose, if I went into the crafting system knowing that the end result was randomized to some extent, I'd be cool with that, even more so if I can try to get a high roll so I can choose from 4 possible effects/sets of effects instead of just taking the one that gets rolled.

[Kaelik]

You can definitely have that system, but you have to understand that what you are creating is fundamentally incompatible with people being able to to buy and sell magic items.

Uh... you're going to have to go a few more steps in your argument, because I absolutely do not get to your conclusion without substituting "miracles" or "crazy talk" for step two.

If most items are prototypes with semi-randomized abilities, that would not only allow for buying and selling but it would set off the collector spark. Imagine for the moment that every +2 sword had three random picks off the "minor bullshit" charts. Can you honestly tell me that there wouldn't be a lively trade in items that had minor bullshit that was generally agreed to be "better?" I mean, seriously?

Consider the auction houses of like any MMO at all. Items are bought and sold by how much they are desired, and the little wibbly bits on the ends of these things often have a huge impact on total prices. Because supply and demand and shit.

I am really at a total loss as to where you get the prediction that magic items wouldn't be bought and sold if they had unique randomly generated effects. It's totally wrong. It's like you're giving the weather from Bizarroworld.

-Username17

If you're fine with players never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever crafting items, then sure.

But if they can buy items with the same resources they can spend to fucking roll on random charts, they are going to cast divination to find the one that already has the qualities they want instead of wasting their fucking resources making a bunch of useless pieces of shit.

[schpeelah]

If you're fine with players never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever crafting items, then sure.

But if they can buy items with the same resources they can spend to fucking roll on random charts, they are going to cast divination to find the one that already has the qualities they want instead of wasting their fucking resources making a bunch of useless pieces of shit.

What gave you the impression that the system proposed has the crazy idea of crafting costing the same as buying while buying gets you exactly what you want?

First, obviously crafting things is cheaper, especially for adventurers who find themselves in possession of quickly perishable components.

Second, other NPCs are getting results just as random, so the DM is still rolling on the same table for what's available for sale.

Thirdly, Frank already mentioned the existence of established recipes that allow reliable outputs. Random results are from experimentation in creating new items.

[Tannhäuser]

So, does magic item acquisition resemble Pokemon more than WoW under this proposed system?

[Prak]

Yeah, I'd totally muck around with this sort of crafting minigame. Especially if it didn't cost XP, as crafting fucking shouldn't anyway. And I know that I'm not alone in that.

[name_here]

The Atelier series runs on a similar principle, except the random tables are rolled on for the components rather than the product.

[Kaelik]

What gave you the impression that the system proposed has the crazy idea of crafting costing the same as buying while buying gets you exactly what you want?

It's just a math equation. If buying gets you what you want but costs you five times as much, but you have only a 1/10th chance of getting what you want, then buying is better and only gamblers make items.

If buying costs 100 times as much, and you have a 1/100 chance of getting what you want, then you just make items, unless you are so risk adverse that you value certainty twice as much as money, you never buy anything.

Second, other NPCs are getting results just as random, so the DM is still rolling on the same table for what's available for sale.

And your games don't have teleport and planeshift, that allow you to shop at 500 different markets? And your spells don't have divination to find out which shop is currently or will be selling the item you want? And that's why your system is totally compatible?

[Username17]

If you're fine with players never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever crafting items, then sure.

But if they can buy items with the same resources they can spend to fucking roll on random charts, they are going to cast divination to find the one that already has the qualities they want instead of wasting their fucking resources making a bunch of useless pieces of shit.

So... while you're giving us these reports from the Bizarro World in which you apparently live, how are the sportsball teams doing? Are the Golden State Warriors ever going to make the playoffs on Bizarro World?

You know that even though people can buy exactly the magic cards that they want, that people still buy random packs, right? You know, literally exactly the thing you say would never happen. Or how in like fucking every game that exists that has both a crafting system and an auction house, people both craft things and also buy things on the auction house. Again, literally exactly the thing you simply cannot imagine people doing "ever."

They do it. All the time. Because unlike you, the rest of us do not live on Bizarro Earth, but instead live on regular Earth. And on regular Earth, acceptable pricing for a chance to get a thing vs. a certainty to get the same thing is something which is done every minute of every hour of every day, and has been being done for literally thousands of years.

It's just a math equation. If buying gets you what you want but costs you five times as much, but you have only a 1/10th chance of getting what you want, then buying is better and only gamblers make items.

If buying costs 100 times as much, and you have a 1/100 chance of getting what you want, then you just make items, unless you are so risk adverse that you value certainty twice as much as money, you never buy anything.

Wow. You even acknowledge that some people are "gamblers" and some people are "risk averse" and still you hold to your completely insane claim that no universe could support black box crafting and open box purchases. You've already admitted that different people have different utility functions for the tradeoffs between chance and certainty. That alone means that your thesis is wrong. Since different people have different utility functions, no matter what you set the cost ratios there will be some people who choose one option and some who choose another. Like fucking obviously. And there will tautologically be some place you can set the slider where both systems would be used "enough" to fit whatever design goals you have.

So, does magic item acquisition resemble Pokemon more than WoW under this proposed system?

I'm not sure we're at the point of a proposed system at this point. But it kinda sounds like we're talking about one of those alchemy minigames from a Nippon Ichi game.

Obviously there's a huge tradeoff in how much "cool stuff" you can get into the charts versus how long it takes to generate these things. In this world of mobile phones and webpages with dumb superhero generators and shit, I would think that you could thread that needle by making it a computer program that spits out all the crazy bullshit and has whatever vanishingly tiny chances of giving you really anomalous results you want. If you phrase artifice skill successes and special recipe items as "you may replace one of the slots on the final object with XXX" then you wouldn't even have to have a difficult menu to navigate to get things started.

-Username17

[Orca]

If you're willing to pay the appropriate markup and spend enough time & magic searching you can buy what you want in D&D. And perhaps a +3 sword which is immune to acid damage and collapses into a baton when not in use is the only thing you are willing to pay for (for example.) If anyone at the table has less exacting requirements then why wouldn't they be willing to chance a roll?