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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Zinegata wrote:You also don't have to be coy about why you don't want to take the advice. But it is rather obvious you were Move-Overwatching like almost everyone inevitably does in the beginning. It's not something to feel bad about; as I said the interface tends to encourage you in that direction.
You are a fucking idiot, I have a team of 6 Psions and a team of 2 Rangers and 6 SHarpshooters, I never fucking moved Overwatched in my life.

I even tried to double move then Threat Assesment my Sharpshooters once, that sucked because apparently they only get shitty pistol covering fire overwatches for that which sucks.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

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Post by DSMatticus »

Zinegata wrote:You never bothered to read the post I was responding to, were you? You just saw the words "fair" and pounced for TGDMB upvotes. For reference:
Why are you so bad at this? This is really not complicated.

Someone complained about the mechanic, not mentioning the word fair anywhere at all.

You dismissed their complaints, pointing out that the mechanic was "gamey but fair."

I pointed out that 1) nobody fucking cares whether or not a PvE mechanic is fair, because PvE games are almost always so asymmetric that "fairness" is a bad design benchmark, and 2) no it fucking isn't.

You responded with the gem "it's unfair, but it favors the player." That is the exact moment you lost this half of this argument as hard as it was possible to lose any argument ever. On the charge of not knowing what the fuck fair means, you just straight up pleaded guilty and for some reason are still arguing like you have a leg to stand on. You don't. You were wrong; the mechanic is not fair. Oops.

Now, as to who the mechanic is actually an advantage for... well, if the only exploration you ever do is with your first moved character's half move, then you are guaranteed 100% first strike, and it's an almost game-breakingly massive advantage for the player. The higher difficulties compensate for this with hitpoint bloat, because everyone knows turn-based tactics games are all about mindless DPS checks. If you play the game any other way, it's pretty much an advantage for the aliens. So the correct way to play is to slowcrawl through everything and reduce each separate group of enemies to a simple DPS check in which you activate a controlled number of enemies and then murder all of them before they get to do anything. Deep. We're seriously talking about a "tactical" game that discourages recon and map control, because the more of the map you take and see the more enemies you're going to activate and then you lose because the game is actually just a bunch of DPS checks and every group of enemies you activate is a linear increase to the DPS you need to not lose.
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Post by Kaelik »

DSMatticus wrote:The higher difficulties compensate for this with hitpoint bloat, because everyone knows turn-based tactics games are all about mindless DPS checks.
I was wondering if I should bother upping my difficulty level to impossible or not, but I didn't know what the changes would be. I guess since there is no alien AI, it can't be that, which basically meany More enemies, More HP, and/or faster Avatar progression.

I was hoping for more aliens, even if it kind of doesn't matter because of pods, nice to see that they went for literally the least impressive option.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by name_here »

It does all of those things, actually. Also I think the AI actually does get a bit smarter; less inclined to take potshots and more inclined to make effective use of overwatch and suppression rather than futilely blazing away at people in full cover.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
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Post by Kaelik »

name_here wrote:It does all of those things, actually. Also I think the AI actually does get a bit smarter; less inclined to take potshots and more inclined to make effective use of overwatch and suppression rather than futilely blazing away at people in full cover.
I wouldn't know because both my teams consist entirely of killing everything in sight in one round.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
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Post by DSMatticus »

In XCom1, impossible is mostly a bunch of across the board number increases. Higher hitpoints, higher damage, better aim. Pods do have slightly more aliens, and there are more pods per mission. The only AI change I'm aware of is that they throw more grenades, but don't quote me on that. I don't know what they've changed, difficulty setting wise, between XCom1 and XCom2. I assume it's a lot of the same.

Most of the difficulty for impossible comes from the early game strategic portion. You don't have the equipment to meet the DPS checks, and you don't have the time or the resources to rush for that equipment because everything is already going to hell. So you just have to do your best to minimize the pain while waiting until you can meet those DPS checks and then it's back to business as usual. It sounds like you've found a segment of the game where the "you lose" countdown isn't active and progression still isn't gated, so you are starting the game proper with endgame stuff. If you play that way, I don't think it matters what difficulty you play on, because you have already won.

I would not say impossible is particularly fun; it's just really hardcore about making you play correctly. But the correct way to play is pretty fucking meh to begin with, so I don't see how enforcing it improves the game.
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Post by Kaelik »

DSMatticus wrote:It sounds like you've found a segment of the game where the "you lose" countdown isn't active and progression still isn't gated, so you are starting the game proper with endgame stuff. If you play that way, I don't think it matters what difficulty you play on, because you have already won.
Yeah, I started a new game and didn't do that, just to see how it plays, the answer is that sharpshooters still kill things very fast, and it just takes longer to get Psions.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by Hadanelith »

Oh, Impossible (sorry, *Legendary*) in XCOM2's greatest difficulty is legit the FIRST GODDAMN MISSION. Why? On Legendary, the xenos get a bonus pod that includes a Sectoid (with, yes, the Insanity power), and all three of the enemy pods KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, even when concealed. They path straight towards you, and when you blow your cover you will pretty much always pull all three that first turn. At which point you wipe. I've seriously seen a streamer have it happen multiple times in a row (no, I didn't do it myself, I'm not a masochist, I'm never playing Legendary). It's really fucking broken, and I have no idea how people have managed to make any progress in Legendary at all.
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Post by Zinegata »

DSMatticus wrote:Why are you so bad at this?
Because I'm not bad at it. The problem is you are so fucking retarded that you keep focusing on the word "fair" when the context is that the complaint about the mechanics is that it's unfair to the player.

Every single fucking retard quote from you ignores the entirety of the "to the player" portion.

So again stop pretending this is anything but you trying to gain TGDMB upvotes.
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Post by Zinegata »

Kaelik wrote:You are a fucking idiot, I have a team of 6 Psions and a team of 2 Rangers and 6 SHarpshooters, I never fucking moved Overwatched in my life.

I even tried to double move then Threat Assesment my Sharpshooters once, that sucked because apparently they only get shitty pistol covering fire overwatches for that which sucks.
Right. You got those 6 Psions at the start? Really?

When you were all off "but but my grenadiers can't shoot explosives or AoE while on overwatch!"

Again, Kaelik, your problem is that you can never stand any notion that people may actually know more things than you. Back to the ignore list.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Zinegata wrote:So again stop pretending this is anything but you trying to gain TGDMB upvotes.
I'm unclear. Which TGDMB upvotes are these? Do you think this is all group think approval seeking behaviour as part of some sort of ongoing DSMatticus/Kaelik/Phonelobster love fest?
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zinegata »

PhoneLobster wrote: I never called for a faithful remake.
Then why are all your complaints comparisons of old Xcom mechanics to new ones - based on your faulty remembering of how old Xcom actually played?

Again, the reality is you're part of the crowd that didn't want a "remake". You wanted an expansion of the old Xcom. You wanted old Xcom with new graphics and that list of features you wanted.

The problem again is old Xcom is a fucking 90s design. It was great back then and it's still a good game if you're willing to put up with 90s design paradigms.

However it is not going to sell in the modern era when design has moved on. This is why Xenonauts and every attempt to be like old Xcom has failed. This is why Long War is mainly a mod for oldtimers and not part of the standard package.

Respecting a player's free time and head space - meaning acknowledging that they don't actually want to spend so much time or stress buying individual ammunition clips - is already part of modern design which the cranky oldtimer crowd typically dismisses as "dumbing down" a game.

Now, with other games you can certainly make an argument that they dumbed it down for the worse, but Xcom's success and pedigree all point away from that direction.

One of Xcom's lead designers for instance is Ananda Gupta - a guy whose career started in euro boardgames (you know that hipster thing in the 90s that has now pretty surpassed tabletop RPGs and is feeding off its bones) and he had the best-ranked boardgame on BGG for several years despite it being published by a virtually unknown publisher. His designs are all about respecting player time and head space, to the point people who've played his boardgames a lot can tell which ideas were his and which were from someone else.

This is why the second best-known turn-based strategy game in recent times is not Xenonauts but Invisible Inc, which was again all about paring down squad sizes and meaningless accounting in favor of an actual compelling core turn-based stealth mechanic.

In short, the old Micropose model of presenting a Happy Meal that packs many different games in one - which is the Xcom model (base-building game + alien hunt game + air-to-air battle game) - has been supplanted by a model where you have just one or two great mechanics that are then supported by complementing elements. That's what great design in the modern era actually is.

And really, the game you keep describing that you actually want is already out there - it's called Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 mod. That's a game that relishes micromanagement and sends your 12 guys against 30 all the fucking time; and unlike in old Xcom or new Xcom they actually come all at once with 30 guys so you're facing actual lopsided odds.

The thing is it's an actual hard game without understanding the spotting mechanics (and even then it's chancy) which is why most people just play Jagged Alliance 2 vanilla where the opposition kindly sends in troops in smaller groups instead of an actual mob,
Last edited by Zinegata on Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Zinegata wrote:Then why are all your complaints comparisons of old Xcom mechanics to new ones - based on your faulty remembering of how old Xcom actually played?
They aren't, you are the one who hinges his entire argument over comparing the games because you cannot defend the flaws of the current ones, you are the one who proved to be making wildly inaccurate claims about the old Xcom, and the one with a faulty memory who can't remember the contradictory thing he said 5 seconds ago is you.

You have amply demonstrated this repeatedly on this topic. What more can I say. You have been wrong about every fucking thing on this. You continue to be wrong. Your conclusions are wrong, your factual claims are wrong and keep changing, your arguments are self contradictory, your claims about what anyone else has said are wrong.

There isn't actually any other content in your latest rant worth replying to. Because again, basically your entire premise, and everything else. Is just wrong.

Except the euro board game thing. That's worth pointing out that euro board games are all well and good. And you can learn things about wildly disparate games that are useful in other games... But frankly I don't think anyone asked for or wants this game, or even this sort of game to be more like fucking Puerto Rico.

PS... Instead of Puerto Rico I'd have named a board game, sorry, a card game, sorry the only card game Ananda Gupta designed. But as high rated as it perhaps inexplicably once was (the one hit wonder list on Board Game Geek ranks him at #41 basically saying "number one ranking game then where are they now?") I haven't played it and considering its a cold war themed 2 player only card game that claims to be simple and fast but also comes with 260 tokens and simultaneously claims to take three fucking hours to play I don't think I am likely to.

I mean, I wouldn't point this shit out, but you seem to be going for an argument purely from the authority of this guy having some sort of awesome board game design credentials here and all he has ever actually done in the field as far as I can tell is design a bleak themed 3 hour long 2 player card game.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Shady314 »

Zinegata wrote:they don't actually want to spend so much time or stress buying individual ammunition clips - is already part of modern design which the cranky oldtimer crowd typically dismisses as "dumbing down" a game.
I realize you have no argument and you are bouncing around between games pointing out failings in them that are supposed to magically make XCOM perfect but I just want to point out for anyone that hasn't played Xenonauts that Xenonauts does NOT make you do this and in fact tweaked quite a few things from the original to update and improve on it.

Your argument that a Firaxis game published by 2K outsells an indie game solely due to the merits of its design is asinine.
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Post by Kaelik »

Zinegata wrote:Right. You got those 6 Psions at the start? Really?
Look, if you aren't going to read the thread, don't blame me when you turn out to be an idiot. I explicitly stated how I figured out how to avoid starting the avatar project at all and tech to psions and train psions before doing anything besides Gatecrasher, the Power Core mission, and the first random collect a specialist mission.
Zinegata wrote:When you were all off "but but my grenadiers can't shoot explosives or AoE while on overwatch!"
Hey look, you still can't read.
Kaelik before you started posting about XCOM wrote:God do I fucking hate that free move to cover. Like you see three fucking Archon clumped together, surely you can use your 6 fucking void rifts to fuck them right? No, after one they all get to freely sprint out to really far apart? Fuck you too XCOM.
Kaelik later wrote:For example, Phantom Rangers actually can't take overwatch shots on a deploying pod. Specialists always get their overwatches, but sharpshooters have to sit still for a turn to get the not shit overwatch shots, meanwhile anyone with AoE is just told to go fuck themselves. Also Psions don't want to overwatch shot because they want to use abilities, so they sort of get hosed, but their abilities are just so much better they are fine.
Yes, if only there were some other class with AoE that was my problem.
Zinegata wrote:Again, Kaelik, your problem is that you can never stand any notion that people may actually know more things than you. Back to the ignore list.
No Zine, the problem is not that I "can't stand any notion that people may actually know more things than me" I have readily asked for, or acknowleded any number of things other people have said in this thread.

The problem is that you are so butt fuckingly crazy that you couldn't go a whole 2 posts without trying to insult me for doing something that you had no reason at all to believe I was doing. And not just that, but had to imply I was somehow trying to fucking cover for it. No zine, you didn't enlighten me by telling me I can press fucking tab, I figured that out thanks. No zine, I hadn't been putting my psions on overwatch before scouting ahead.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

You know. I was thinking XCOM 2 might launch with second wave options. Sure, maybe they would wall them off behind a first campaign completion.

Apparently not.

I was going to restart the game try some things now I know how it plays. But really all in all... it wasn't really interesting enough and without some variation. Replayability isn't feeling that strong to me right now.

PS. XCOM creators if that teaser at the end means you are going to go to THAT well to cash in your next sequel after the things you said in public about it in the past, fuck you too.
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Post by Parthenon »

I just had the weirdest bug with XCOM 2. I had a specialist hack a sensor tower to get a squad bonus. +15 aim and crit for the whole squad. Immediately upon successfully hacking the bonus, the specialist dropped down dead.

Seriously, what the fuck? How the fuck does that happen?

EDIT: after loading the save and trying a few times, and having the same thing happen each time, it seems that if you fail a skull mine then every hack you succeed at after that on the same mission has feedback damage. So, if you try to give a whole squad bonus then you get feedback damage for every single squad member. Which fits because the sound effect and messages from when the specialist drops down dead is repeated wounds, going to bleeding out, then immediately dying.

Either that or it got bugged to have that effect. This game is shoddily built.
Last edited by Parthenon on Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Parthenon wrote:Seriously, what the fuck? How the fuck does that happen?
Some of the reported bugs are... weird, I mean the red screen filter bug? Is there even a red screen effect IN the game?

My own "weird" bug was the one where I clicked a short single action move, and my character ran past it, out through the wall of the building down onto the ground, past the aliens, through the next two buildings and off the map.

Then turned around and ran all the way back to the original destination.

Apparently the path finding in the game has some... weird... rare issues.
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Post by Parthenon »

PhoneLobster wrote: Some of the reported bugs are... weird, I mean the red screen filter bug? Is there even a red screen effect IN the game?
I know that one. The red screen effect is a debug notice. When debug is set they appear on every non-game breaking error, but the game continues on behind the red screen. Things like "drop failed to complete" when you jump off a building and land but the game doesn't recognise it properly, or when the game tries to replace a dead enemy with a dead body without deleting the enemy with AI.

You can force the debug mode (or I can) by creating a shortcut to the pop up screen with the green "PLAY" on. Closing and running the shortcut goes to a version of the main screen you can play skirmish games on and set other debug settings.
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Post by Kaelik »

FYI, I don't know if you still care, but what happens if you let the Avatar progression hit max is that you still have sort of infinite time.

Because when the bar fills up, a 20 day countdown timer starts, and if you do anything at all to lower avatar numbers during that 20 day period, then it goes down, and the next time it comes up, you get another 20 days.

So on my Legendary playthrough, I just let it max out, then had 19 days, then did the blacksite. Then I let it max out, then had 19 days and killed a codex. There are 3 facilities waiting for me to kill the next three times it maxes out, and I will wait the full 19 days before killing one.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Kaelik wrote:So on my Legendary playthrough, I just let it max out, then had 19 days, then did the blacksite. Then I let it max out, then had 19 days and killed a codex. There are 3 facilities waiting for me to kill the next three times it maxes out, and I will wait the full 19 days before killing one.
I didn't hit that what with how easy it is on normal to just never hit the end of the track. I mean once I could physically reach blacksites... I was never remotely in danger of hitting the end of the track again.

There was a similar, somewhat more one off thing with some progression events in the last game. I do NOT believe that was widely liked even among the fan boys. It seems like so many things their plan is "no one liked it? lets double down!". Why the fuck does Firaxis make such bizarre decisions?
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

PhoneLobster wrote:
Kaelik wrote:So on my Legendary playthrough, I just let it max out, then had 19 days, then did the blacksite. Then I let it max out, then had 19 days and killed a codex. There are 3 facilities waiting for me to kill the next three times it maxes out, and I will wait the full 19 days before killing one.
I didn't hit that what with how easy it is on normal to just never hit the end of the track. I mean once I could physically reach blacksites... I was never remotely in danger of hitting the end of the track again.

There was a similar, somewhat more one off thing with some progression events in the last game. I do NOT believe that was widely liked even among the fan boys. It seems like so many things their plan is "no one liked it? lets double down!". Why the fuck does Firaxis make such bizarre decisions?
Yeah, it certainly ripped 100% of the tension out of my run when I realized that I had literally nothing to worry about for at least the next 80 days, as long as I capture the Psionic gate sometime during that 80 days (plus however much time it is in between avatar progressions).

But at least there are occasionally more enemies in pods, so there is that.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by tussock »

Just some things about ancient X-Com.

The aliens always had better vision, specifically +1 square in daylight and not reduced at all at night, they always saw you before you saw them, if they faced the right direction.

Reactions fire are not at all random, it's reactions * remaining action points, highest first, and firing reduced their action points and drops them down the list. With the broken difficulty bug, your soldiers could hit everything because aliens had half basic reactions, with that fixed the aliens will almost always shoot first, and mutons will kill you all and then wander back for cover. The surprise mechanic meant reactions fire could not occur until you (or they, on their turn) took some action that either hit the alien or moved further or fired a weapon while still in it's arc of sight, this allows you to get first shot when stepping through a door, for instance, great for heavy rockets once you're armoured up.

All aliens start with full AP, so they react optimally if you step out of the skyranger on turn 1, by killing you. Pop smoke, end turn. Them shooting the civilians is taking away their action points, which is good.

Aliens did not move at random. They moved to a designated firing spot that was facing any of the last places any alien saw a trooper in. The map segments are all pathed with waypoints (which are closed for the AI if another alien is walking to that point already), and the aliens follow the paths to reasonable firing spots (like near windows or up on the roof, or in a tricky corner you can't see where they can shoot you in the spine when you walk into the room and can't see them yet) and hold for reactions fire if they can't see anyone.

You can exploit that pathfinding / reactions behaviour by learning which places they tend to be low on APs when they reach, and putting smoke around so they couldn't see you earlier than that. You basically have to on harder difficulties if you want to not lose missions.

If no alien saw any soldier for 8 turns, they'd move back to waypoints designated for watching basic approaches to their zone. So always open your own doors with explosives, as the aliens are looking at the map ones. They would also get sight on anyone in the alien ship, and everyone on the map after 20 turns forever after.

And on higher difficulty settings (available in openxcom, for instance), if you move in groups they just fucking grenade you and you all die. Every time, over fucking roofs from where you can't see them. 4 characters in the radius? Lob, boom, dead, dead, fatal wounds, KO, PANIC!!!! You have to constantly use smoke to break their LOS (which also breaks your LOS, but drops their action points as they move close so they can't murder you all by the time they can see you).

And yeh, the big UFOs on higher difficulty are where you pop smoke on round 1 or you are blaster-bomb fodder every time, because the aliens automatically know you are in the landing craft at the start of the mission. Also some of the aliens are impervious to most weapons because it doubles their armour too. Good fun, heavy laser or GTFO.


openxcom is really good and fixed the large number of bugs, while also cleaning up the bullshit fussy equipping soldiers shit and letting you order troops to put the rookies out first and so on. Psi still rules, but you can switch it to LOS only, which means they at least have to get out of the ship, and there's stuff for limiting accuracy by range to encourage aimed shots at longer range and auto-fire only up close, which the aliens also use.
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Post by Maxus »

I'm legitimately excited for the new DLC on Mortal Kombat X.

Yes, I know, it bones PC gamers by not coming out for them and Netherrealm doesn't say why and that is a terrible thing to do to fans.

However, I have it on the PS4 and it's one of the top three party games among my particular circle of friends. Play Smash Bros, then go play MKX.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I'm legitimately excited for FF9 being released on Steam later this year. I'm sure me and the three other people that buy it will be very happy.
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