Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[virgil]

Polymorph Any Object makes a call to Greater Polymorph, itself a call to Polymorph that leans heavily on the polymorph subschool. The polymorph subschool says you gain the size, natural weapons (w/proficiency), and anything else is under the purview of "see spell for details." This means PAO is unambiguous if you turn something into an animal, humanoid, elemental, dragon, plant, or magical beast...mostly. Inanimate objects don't have hit dice, which makes the resultant stats difficult to discern when you make a creature out of them. Otherwise, nothing says you gain or lose your original creature type; and both Paizo and community have made it abundantly clear that backwards compatibility was a lie, where 3.5 rules are maybe as valid as a forum-goer's house rules.

I'm currently working with the conclusion that Pathfinder's PAO is mostly 404 errors, requiring DM Fiat.

EDIT: A mild perusal of Paizo forums is showing a non-zero number of people taking the stance that PAO can turn anything into anything...so long as it's greater polymorph (with variant duration); sprites? large dragons? screw you!

[ishy]

Well there is this post by Jason Buhlman:

Jason buhlman[/url]]Stardust is correct. Polymorph spells do not change your type.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

But keep in mind, pathfinder polymorph rules are poorly written BS.
Here is an example:

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.

Note that this text is oddly specific and thus it is undefined what happens to your gear if you cast a polymorph spell on someone else or say wild shape.

[GâtFromKI]

I'm currently working with the conclusion that Pathfinder's PAO is mostly 404 errors, requiring DM Fiat.

This is the conclusion I have reached; PAO does a 404 error when transforming an object into a creature, and when transforming anything into a demon/undead/ooze/construct/other exotic stuff.

Under the most conservative ruling, you gain nothing when you morph into an exotic monster, except for the stuff indicated in the polymorph subschool (like natural attacks). So you can use it to transform into a balor, but it's just a new skin and your stats aren't modified. Anyway, an animated object is a construct with an [undefined, up to infinity] number of natural attacks, so PAO is broken even under the most conservative ruling.

[rasmuswagner]

You assholes are seriously suggesting that 3.5 polymorph rules are any good, and that makes you even bigger retards than the people who think Buhlman and Mearls are competent game designers.

[Mask_De_H]

You assholes are seriously suggesting that 3.5 polymorph rules are any good, and that makes you even bigger retards than the people who think Buhlman and Mearls are competent game designers.

Er, only in the sense that PF managed to fuck up even harder. It's comparing a dumpster fire to a toxic waste fire.

[Username17]

You assholes are seriously suggesting that 3.5 polymorph rules are any good, and that makes you even bigger retards than the people who think Buhlman and Mearls are competent game designers.

No. The implication is that the 3.5 polymorph rules say what they do. It's totally broken and there are a few things that people mind caulk away like natural spellcasting abilities. But questions are answerable and house rules can be made. Paizo polymorph rules are gibberish.

-Username17

[rasmuswagner]

You assholes are seriously suggesting that 3.5 polymorph rules are any good, and that makes you even bigger retards than the people who think Buhlman and Mearls are competent game designers.

No. The implication is that the 3.5 polymorph rules say what they do. It's totally broken and there are a few things that people mind caulk away like natural spellcasting abilities. But questions are answerable and house rules can be made. Paizo polymorph rules are gibberish.

-Username17

The Polymorph spells that anyone actually uses - [foo] Shape X, Alter Self, Baleful Polymorph - work just fine. Polymorph Any Object has always been a pain in the ass. and yes, the PF version fails by not having Undead actually be a functional option. But it takes all of 5 fucking seconds to rule that if you use the spell to polymorph into an undead, you use the rules that fucking exist for polymorphing into an undead creature.

I did not expect the retarded assertion that PAO doesn't use the Polymorph rules, but rather some ass-pulled "change into" rules, would pop up here too.

In contrast, the 3.5 polymorph rules technically work, but it takes a written and notarized 20-page gentleman's agreement to prevent them from completely fucking everything.

[Kaelik]

You assholes are seriously suggesting that 3.5 polymorph rules are any good, and that makes you even bigger retards than the people who think Buhlman and Mearls are competent game designers.

So in conclusion... If you cast Polymorph Any Object to turn into an undead, the universe explodes, you light your Pathfinder book on fire, and go play a game with better polymorph rules, which... is sadly 3e. Because wholly shit, how do you make polymorph rules less functional than fucking 3e? Apparently by hiring the 3e team to write more failures of polymorph rules.

Or, in the alternative, you are a fucking idiot.

The Polymorph spells that anyone actually uses - [foo] Shape X, Alter Self, Baleful Polymorph - work just fine. Polymorph Any Object has always been a pain in the ass. and yes, the PF version fails by not having Undead actually be a functional option. But it takes all of 5 fucking seconds to rule that if you use the spell to polymorph into an undead, you use the rules that fucking exist for polymorphing into an undead creature.

I did not expect the retarded assertion that PAO doesn't use the Polymorph rules, but rather some ass-pulled "change into" rules, would pop up here too.

In contrast, the 3.5 polymorph rules technically work, but it takes a written and notarized 20-page gentleman's agreement to prevent them from completely fucking everything.

Dude.... You are a fucking idiot.

PAO literally can't work on objects at all. It also can't work on undead, but even if you just houserule the fuck out of it, it still runs into all the problems with the rest of Pathfinders shitty polymorph options like:

Alter Self turns Dragons into people, because whatever.

All the X shape spells are pathetic, and don't let you actually turn into different creatures, because of arbitrary nonsense size restrictions that are backed into every spell for pretty much no reason.

Like, great, you have some shitty buff spells that aren't worth casting, but bring a disguise check too. What the fuck ever, you still can't use it for the things you might actually want to use Polymorph for.

But hey, Baleful Polymorph works, so Pathfinder fixed Polymorph, because after all Baleful Polymorph didn't work in 3e... oh wait.

[rasmuswagner]

The Polymorph spells that anyone actually uses - [foo] Shape X, Alter Self, Baleful Polymorph - work just fine. Polymorph Any Object has always been a pain in the ass. and yes, the PF version fails by not having Undead actually be a functional option. But it takes all of 5 fucking seconds to rule that if you use the spell to polymorph into an undead, you use the rules that fucking exist for polymorphing into an undead creature.

I did not expect the retarded assertion that PAO doesn't use the Polymorph rules, but rather some ass-pulled "change into" rules, would pop up here too.

In contrast, the 3.5 polymorph rules technically work, but it takes a written and notarized 20-page gentleman's agreement to prevent them from completely fucking everything.

Dude.... You are a fucking idiot.

PAO literally can't work on objects at all. It also can't work on undead, but even if you just houserule the fuck out of it, it still runs into all the problems with the rest of Pathfinders shitty polymorph options like:

You're right, PAO doesn't work on objects-into-creatures, and that is a hilari-sad writing fail, because they clearly tried to make it work but not enough to even sketch out a single statblock for pebble-to-solar.

But hey, maybe the ability to create your choice of 15-HD monster out of your pocket lint was fucked in the first place.

Alter Self turns Dragons into people, because whatever.

All the X shape spells are pathetic, and don't let you actually turn into different creatures, because of arbitrary nonsense size restrictions that are backed into every spell for pretty much no reason.

Like, great, you have some shitty buff spells that aren't worth casting, but bring a disguise check too. What the fuck ever, you still can't use it for the things you might actually want to use Polymorph for.

But hey, Baleful Polymorph works, so Pathfinder fixed Polymorph, because after all Baleful Polymorph didn't work in 3e... oh wait.

Newsflash, you dim-witted asshole: Full casters are plenty powerful. Putting i giant permanent statbonus in the spells chapter is not good game design.

PF polymorph rules are actually playable. 3.5 polymorph rules are a fucking ridiculous mess and you know it.

[Koumei]

PF polymorph rules are playable, but also shit, and if you want to do anything not on the list (like turning into an Undead or turning into an object) you need to create an entire new line of spells or just fuck off.

The 3.X polymorph rules were a terrible mess, but at least once you made your agreement on what isn't okay, the spells had the flexibility to basically turn you into the thing you expected to turn into.

As it is, PAO apparently exists as a spell in Pathfinder, and it is badly written and tucked away in the hopes that people just don't use it and instead make their Sorcerer learn five ___Shape spells that are all shit, and then when you DO use PAO, you can basically call up a function not found and cause the universe to implode or whatever happens when something says to use rules that don't actually exist.

[Kaelik]

Newsflash, you dim-witted asshole: Full casters are plenty powerful. Putting i giant permanent statbonus in the spells chapter is not good game design.

Polymorph Any Object being Permanent at level 15 can be dumb. Being able to double cast it for permanency is also dumb.

Guess what fuckface, you can still do that in fucking Pathfinder, just from the shitty selection of shitty buffs, instead of actual transformation.

None of that changes that Pathfinder doesn't actually have transformation magic that doesn't suck at any level, and 3e can in fact do that at levels 1-14 without permanent stat buffs.

PF polymorph rules are actually playable. 3.5 polymorph rules are a fucking ridiculous mess and you know it.

YEAH I DO KNOW! THAT'S WHY I SAID IT YOU IDIOT.

But Pathfinder is still worse. Because it's doesn't even do anything. It literally has a pile of bullshit buffs that aren't even transformation magic, and that arbitrarily limit your shape changing with bullshit size limitations.

And that's the point. It is really really really really really really hard to start from 3e polymorph and end up making it worse. But Pathfinder still did it, and that's pathetic.[/i]

[virgil]

I couldn't help but notice Baleful Polymorph and its difference between Pathfinder and 3.X

• 3E Total stat replacement except for Alignment, HP, HD for spell effects, known languages. In 24 hours, make a Will save or the only thing retained is alignment (HP/HD/language chance to match form). Equipment always falls off and is never transformed.
  Pathfinder Retain all original stats except size and natural attacks. Also gain a boost to Dex & natural armor, & whatever abilities the form has that are on the Beast III list. You then immediate make a Will save, failure resulting in losing all Ex/Su/Sp abilities from your class as well as spellcasting (keep stuff like sneak attack). You also gain the new form's mental stats (keeping your physical stats), alignment, and all of their special abilities. Equipment is absorbed into your body, as per any other polymorph effect.

This makes baleful polymorph, for certain characters, a strict buff when used in Pathfinder.

[Kaelik]

I couldn't help but notice Baleful Polymorph and its difference between Pathfinder and 3.X

• 3E Total stat replacement except for Alignment, HP, HD for spell effects, known languages. In 24 hours, make a Will save or the only thing retained is alignment (HP/HD/language chance to match form). Equipment always falls off and is never transformed.
  Pathfinder Retain all original stats except size and natural attacks. Also gain a boost to Dex & natural armor, & whatever abilities the form has that are on the Beast III list. You then immediate make a Will save, failure resulting in losing all Ex/Su/Sp abilities from your class as well as spellcasting (keep stuff like sneak attack). You also gain the new form's mental stats (keeping your physical stats), alignment, and all of their special abilities. Equipment is absorbed into your body, as per any other polymorph effect.

This makes baleful polymorph, for certain characters, a strict buff when used in Pathfinder.

Wow... Just... Wow...

I just assumed they didn't change it because it was already all you could ever want from an offense polymorph spell.

But no, apparently Pathfinder had to fuck that up too. Hey does Flesh to Stone turn you into a Stone construct?

[virgil]

But no, apparently Pathfinder had to fuck that up too. Hey does Flesh to Stone turn you into a Stone construct?

Nope, they copied 3E's text verbatim.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Random tangent here - has anyone ever actually made Tiers out of the pathfinder classes? Or have a link to someone's attempt?

[Mask_De_H]

Random tangent here - has anyone ever actually made Tiers out of the pathfinder classes? Or have a link to someone's attempt?

4chan did, actually.

[Kaelik]

Minmax boards did it too, with predictable results (the same dumb shit as JaronK's original, but now in Pathfinder) http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11990.0

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Random tangent here - has anyone ever actually made Tiers out of the pathfinder classes? Or have a link to someone's attempt?

4chan did, actually.

Thanks!

Minmax boards did it too, with predictable results (the same dumb shit as JaronK's original, but now in Pathfinder) http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11990.0

Thanks! Also "same dumb shit" - what do you mean by that exactly? I vaguely remember some criticism of the idea of the tiers, but can't quite remember.

[...You Lost Me]

The way tiers are determined doesn't accurately reflect the strengths of a class, for a variety of reasons. They also aren't good for gauging how a class is used/played in real games.

[Mask_De_H]

Balancing around how hard you can fuck the game in the ass given arbitrary optimization caps and the level of shit you can get past your MC, as opposed to things like build difficulty, ability to contribute to a party, swinging in a SGT or the equivalent, etc.

It's not a useful metric, especially when it turns into "Full casters, Sorcerer casters, Bard casters, Paladin casters and whatever martial(s) CharOp people jerk it to, martials CharOp people don't jerk it to."

[Kaelik]

Thanks! Also "same dumb shit" - what do you mean by that exactly? I vaguely remember some criticism of the idea of the tiers, but can't quite remember.

There's like a thousand different criticisms.

1) JaronK's Tiers are full of shit, because he thinks Favored Souls are good and Beguilers are average, because he's an idiot. Or he thinks Factotums are cool, or whatever.

2) JaronK values classes based on how many times they break the game, instead of literally any sane metric at all.

3) The Tiers method of measuring shit has nothing to do with how well you can deal with level appropriate opposition. Having multiple not level appropriate things like a Bard or a Factotum is considered better than having a single level appropriate thing, like the Rogue.

4) JaronK plays in some super weird fucked up world where Factotums are allowed to have Item Familiars, use MM II rules to make a bat minion, use a 3.0 setting specific skill from a setting their not in, and use Alter Self to get spellcasting from other classes. But god forbid you suggest that Dread Necromancers could get a wand of Magic Circle for their Planar Binding spells, that's just nonsense! Basically, classes that he likes are allowed to do any damn rules exploit, but other classes he doesn't like are played by a retarded monkey who takes weapon focus with all his feats on a Dread Necromancer.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Ah ok - that makes sense then, thanks for the explanation guys.

[GâtFromKI]

Random tangent here - has anyone ever actually made Tiers out of the pathfinder classes? Or have a link to someone's attempt?

The tier system in Pathfinder is simple:
good tier: full casters.
medium tier: 2/3 casters.
still playable tier: 1/2 casters.
NPC tier: non-casters.

[rasmuswagner]

None of that changes that Pathfinder doesn't actually have transformation magic that doesn't suck at any level, and 3e can in fact do that at levels 1-14 without permanent stat buffs.

PF polymorph rules are actually playable. 3.5 polymorph rules are a fucking ridiculous mess and you know it.

YEAH I DO KNOW! THAT'S WHY I SAID IT YOU IDIOT.

But Pathfinder is still worse. Because it's doesn't even do anything. It literally has a pile of bullshit buffs that aren't even transformation magic, and that arbitrarily limit your shape changing with bullshit size limitations.

So what you want is magic that meets your arbitrary treshold of "is transformation magic", and like a neckbearded grognard, you demand stupid shit that has been proven repeatedly not to work, shit that is in fact obviously broken from first principles, except, you know, you want it fixed and working.

[MGuy]

None of that changes that Pathfinder doesn't actually have transformation magic that doesn't suck at any level, and 3e can in fact do that at levels 1-14 without permanent stat buffs.

PF polymorph rules are actually playable. 3.5 polymorph rules are a fucking ridiculous mess and you know it.

YEAH I DO KNOW! THAT'S WHY I SAID IT YOU IDIOT.

But Pathfinder is still worse. Because it's doesn't even do anything. It literally has a pile of bullshit buffs that aren't even transformation magic, and that arbitrarily limit your shape changing with bullshit size limitations.

So what you want is magic that meets your arbitrary treshold of "is transformation magic", and like a neckbearded grognard, you demand stupid shit that has been proven repeatedly not to work, shit that is in fact obviously broken from first principles, except, you know, you want it fixed and working.

What conversation are you reading?