Naruto...

[technomancer]

ugh, ranma 1/2 was decent to start with, as a comedy, but then more and more assholish characters got more and more screen time. The 'master' who originally trained ranma and his dad (happosi, or something) was so incredibly annoying that I would skip past episodes that featured him, which was, unfortunatly, the majority of the last half of the series. I kept hoping that he would get killed in a horrific and brutal way.

[PhoneLobster]

Ranma has a lot going for it, the creator of the series genuinely rocks and all her stuff is good.

But the dynamics generally don't apeal to certain people. Its a complex social dynamic that generally appeals to people who like that sort of thing, traditionally that means women, and a few of their cravenly obsessive male fans like myself.

Its also like the evil dead movies, a lot of the humour revolves around bad things happening to the characters they NEED to be just a little bit deserving of all that misfortune.

Also it seems the author is a big fan of shakespearian personality flaws. Single definable character traits that are major weakness that help define a character and their role.

Ranma obsesses over winning everything.
Ryouga is obsessed with revenge.
Akane is too quick to judge.
The two fathers are lazy cowards.
etc...

These weaknesses SHOULD help you understand and empathise with the characters and the plot. I for one always felt that they were a rather brilliantly done in Ranma.

Mind you I cannot, for the life of me, imagine anyone who is a fan of Naruto criticising something on the basis of supposedly unlikable characters. I mean good god, Naruto himself must be the most hateable character in anime since Astro Boy's evil robotic little sister.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

About two years ago, a friend of mine sat me down to watch the first 8-10 Naruto episodes, and I was, frankly, bored. I haven't watched much else in Naruto.

As for Ranma, well I have no problem with characters having faults. But they need to display redeeming qualities, and they need to do that in a short enough time period that I don't get annoyed and quit paying attention. And I read two and a half graphic novels, you can't say I wasn't fair.

-Des

[Maj]

Just to satisfy my curiosity, I checked out the first few episodes again, but this time, I watched the Japanese instead of the English dubs on Cartoon Network.

I swear it's a different TV show.

[technomancer]

Yeah, it is a very, very different show. If you want to see something crazy, check out the german dub on youtube. They not only cut out all blood entriely, but they cut out blades as well. Zabuza (first story arc, gigantic sword) looks like he's menacing people with a chair leg.

[Maj]

[Digestor]

The translation/dub/sub thing makes a huge difference to me, as lame as that may sound. I've been accused of trying to sound like some kind of originalist or whatever, but I honestly do enjoy hearing the japanese voices that actually fit the role of the character and reading english subs than hearing the crappy forced and lame english dubs...

"It's over five thousaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnndddddddddddddddddddddd"

etc.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

It's starting to get to the point were some anime are getting reasonable dubs (Not all of them, though). So, for them, it's all about what you're used to. For example, I cannot stand several of the voices used in the Cowboy Bebop dub, but I actually preferr to watch Hellsing dubbed (Because I love Seras' voice)

-Des

[Digestor]

Yeah - Hellsing was definitely pretty nifty, dubbed or subbed.

I remember watching Gungrave and practically cracking up everytime someone said "BURANDONNN HEATUUU" or "BIGUU DAHHDEEE", those were just a weeeeee bit over the top.

[User3]

As of the previous chapter in the manga:

Aaaaaaand Naruto does all of the work with his new overpowered jutsu and the girls stand in the back and do nothing.

What did I tell you?

I'm always right.

[User3]

Orochimaru's arms, cursed personally by Shinigami, were rotting away.
The pain had gotten so bad lately that he couldn't even move. Even the slightest muscular twitch or breeze of air against skin these days left him screaming in agony. All he could manage to do was lie in bed so very still, where the pain would be a managable ache rather than the torturous fire they were now.
At times like these, he was left all alone with his thoughts.
It's curious how the mind wanders in situations like these. Except for his arms, which could be ignored as long as he didn't move, Orochimaru was in complete physical comfort. He was being constantly pampered by the grovelling Kabuto and to his surprise was rediscovering the simple pleasures of life. His hideout had a calming, not eerie quiet to it and the cool damp air felt good even on his crumbling arms. But what he most liked was his blanket. It was one of his few connections to his old village and no one knew about it. It was a present from Tsunade, back when they were still sannin.
Orochimaru gritted his teeth. Tsunade. He was still hurt by the fact that she had turned on him. He had no intention at all on betraying her. It was funny that he still had feelings for her after all these years. Deep down and buried, because they have no place in his life, but in lucid moments like these they resurfaced.
Tsunade was the first and only woman Orochimaru was ever with, a secret both of them would carry to their graves. Orochimaru feebly tried to repress the next memory but it was of no use. He found himself thinking about all of the times they made furtive, teenage love. He supposed he was cuter back then. That's really the only time in his life he felt needed beyond just his abilities, come to think.
Orochimaru didn't know why, but he found himself thinking about the time during a particularly cold winter's day they stripped of all of their clothes and made love by the fireplace. He wished he was there right now, just for a few moments, before life became as complicated as it was today.
The next thing Orochimaru knew he was teleported in the middle of a grated fireplace. Unable to break free, he screamed in surprise and terror as the fire consumed him. Maito Gai, who saw the whole thing, was like, 'HOLY SHIT!'

Moral of the Story: Be Careful What You Wish For

[shirak]

1182784226[/unixtime]]Orochimaru's arms, cursed personally by Shinigami, were rotting away.
The pain had gotten so bad lately that he couldn't even move. Even the slightest muscular twitch or breeze of air against skin these days left him screaming in agony. All he could manage to do was lie in bed so very still, where the pain would be a managable ache rather than the torturous fire they were now.
At times like these, he was left all alone with his thoughts.
It's curious how the mind wanders in situations like these. Except for his arms, which could be ignored as long as he didn't move, Orochimaru was in complete physical comfort. He was being constantly pampered by the grovelling Kabuto and to his surprise was rediscovering the simple pleasures of life. His hideout had a calming, not eerie quiet to it and the cool damp air felt good even on his crumbling arms. But what he most liked was his blanket. It was one of his few connections to his old village and no one knew about it. It was a present from Tsunade, back when they were still sannin.
Orochimaru gritted his teeth. Tsunade. He was still hurt by the fact that she had turned on him. He had no intention at all on betraying her. It was funny that he still had feelings for her after all these years. Deep down and buried, because they have no place in his life, but in lucid moments like these they resurfaced.
Tsunade was the first and only woman Orochimaru was ever with, a secret both of them would carry to their graves. Orochimaru feebly tried to repress the next memory but it was of no use. He found himself thinking about all of the times they made furtive, teenage love. He supposed he was cuter back then. That's really the only time in his life he felt needed beyond just his abilities, come to think.
Orochimaru didn't know why, but he found himself thinking about the time during a particularly cold winter's day they stripped of all of their clothes and made love by the fireplace. He wished he was there right now, just for a few moments, before life became as complicated as it was today.
The next thing Orochimaru knew he was teleported in the middle of a grated fireplace. Unable to break free, he screamed in surprise and terror as the fire consumed him. Maito Gai, who saw the whole thing, was like, 'HOLY SHIT!'

Moral of the Story: Be Careful What You Wish For

I knew fanfic is nuts but this takes the cake. At least the teenagers fantasizing about rape and death do it on a fucking fanfic forum. What the hell, man? What the hell?

[Cielingcat]

At first I was all o_O

But then, i lol'd

[Lago_AM3P]

I wrote that.

Sheesh, there wasn't any rape nor did I mean to imply any. Orochimaru was reminscing about a time in his life before he became a complete monster due to his current inability to commit evil. You know, back when he, Jiraiya, and Tsunade were friends. Otherwise they wouldn't be the 'legendary sannin'.

The whole story was supposed to be a O'Henryish twist on the typical 'person thinks about past loves' (if he was a simpleton) and making fun of the cliche about people always having sex by fire. I thought the sudden shift in tone would've signified this.

So in conclusion:

THERE WAS NO RAPE GODDAMMIT.

Sheesh, I can't believe that it's gotten to the point where people are thinking that I'm posting rapefics. I know I've been in the Navy way too fucking long, but come on!

[Cielingcat]

Were you drunk at the time? 'Cause the ending is all


In fact, the whole story can be summed up as:

The Suspect

The guard sat in his chair, staring at the jail cell and the man inside. The man simply lay there on his cot, his features blurred in the dim light. The guard wondered: did he really do it? Could such an unassuming man really have done such a thing? The guard had seen many criminals in his day, and the man in the cell simply didn’t fit the bill, at least not for this kind of crime. But the evidence against him was damning. Even his lawyer seemed to have his doubts about the man’s innocence, or so it seemed from what small part of the trial the guard had watched. The guard sighed and leaned back in his chair. Perhaps the man would be convicted, but what would happen to him then? Prison, almost certainly. But a man like him is not built for prison. The guard had seen what happened to people like him in prison, and it wasn’t something he would wish upon anyone, even someone convicted of a crime as heinous as the one the man was accused of.

Maybe he would be found innocent. What would happen to the man then? Surely it would be better than prison, but could his life ever be the same? There would always be people who doubted his innocence now, no matter what the verdict, and then there was the aftermath of the crime itself. The man’s life could never be the same as it was before all this started. The guard sighed once more as his thoughts shifted. Is this what he was thinking of, as he lay there on his cot? Was he pondering what his life would be like after the trial, or were his thoughts preoccupied with the trial itself? Maybe he wasn’t thinking of any of that. The guard figured that it must certainly be depressing to agonize over your own fate, so perhaps the man was thinking of something else, something more pleasant.

A bell rang; the guard’s shift was over. He got up and handed the keys to his replacement, his musing over the fate of the prisoner already forgotten. The new guard sat down in his chair and looked over at the man in the jail cell, still lying upon his cot and staring at the ceiling. The guard wondered: what was he thinking about?

[Lago_AM3P]

Were you drunk at the time? 'Cause the ending is all

Are you asking me?

No, I wasn't drunk at the time. The story was written around the twist ending. I was, however, really really bored and I was on watch. Since we're not allowed to move, look around us, or do anything fun for 5 hours pretty much the only activity you can safely do without getting yelled at/caught is writing stuff.

And man, some weird stories come out of those watches. That's one of the milder ones.

[MrWaeseL]

You're not allowed to look around when on watch?

[Lago_AM3P]

I usually stand a stationary watch where I look at a panel and make sure the numbers don't go into the bad range, so, no, I'm not allowed to look around. I'm supposed to be facing it 100% of the time, even when I need to do something like get a technical manual or look at an indication not in front of me. Because that could get me in trouble.

Yes, it's an impossible double standard which means that you will often get in trouble for doing your job, but that's the military for you.

[Maj]

And this is why palace guards in D&D don't have spot.

[shirak]

1182882877[/unixtime]]

Were you drunk at the time? 'Cause the ending is all

Are you asking me?

No, I wasn't drunk at the time. The story was written around the twist ending. I was, however, really really bored and I was on watch. Since we're not allowed to move, look around us, or do anything fun for 5 hours pretty much the only activity you can safely do without getting yelled at/caught is writing stuff.

And man, some weird stories come out of those watches. That's one of the milder ones.

I'd like to say this explains a lot... but it doesn't. Anyway, I think Orochimaru was FUBAR from the word go. Remember how the Third kept having his doubts but chose to ignore them? Orochimaru never was a good guy in any way, shape or form. He wasn't even neautral. He is, was and always will be a bona fide BBEG. That's what's so scary about him, he really is like the snakes he likes.

And as far as I am concerned, talking about this guy having sex is considered rape. OF MY MIND!

1182894081[/unixtime]]And this is why palace guards in D&D don't have spot.

[Lago_AM3P]

I'd like to say this explains a lot... but it doesn't. Anyway, I think Orochimaru was FUBAR from the word go. Remember how the Third kept having his doubts but chose to ignore them? Orochimaru never was a good guy in any way, shape or form. He wasn't even neautral. He is, was and always will be a bona fide BBEG. That's what's so scary about him, he really is like the snakes he likes.

And as far as I am concerned, talking about this guy having sex is considered rape. OF MY MIND!

I don't blame you for having this kind of impression, but there is some indication in the series of Orochimaru actually forming friendships with Jiraiya and Tsunade, especially as the former tried to convince Orochimaru not to leave and even went after him for a period of time like Naruto did for Sasuke.

No matter how evil someone is, even if they had a twisted personality from the get-go, like say, Himmler, it's not live they live in total social isolation. Even the Unabomber had friends and probably even had consensual sex at one point.

I know that cartoons in general tend to go a little over the top with the characterization of some characters, but that doesn't mean that every activity they do is automatically considered evil. I mean, I don't think that Hitler had EVIL Nazi sex with his mistress.

[Lago_AM3P]

I thought about my reply I made to shirak and I'm starting to realize how amoral and twisted this setting is.

The premise of Naruto is that all of the real fighting are done by ninjas. Jutsu is so powerful that there aren't standing armies anymore. If a moderately-talented ninja wants an army capable of taking on the Legions of Terror, he can just wave his hands and get one. Or more likely, he can beat up all of them without even trying.

Except that unlike One Piece, these ninjas are packed into highly rigid clan structures and separated by an extreme form of nationalism where people not in their culture are completely dehumanized. Unless they are allies. I am not kidding at all. Shino blew off a 14-year old's arm and no one batted an eyelash yet everyone got upset when Neji was making fun of Hinata. This is disregarding the fact that Neji has a legitimate gripe against Hinata. No, it was wrong because they were FROM THE SAME CLAN.

This happens all of the time. You see the protagonists killing scores of enemy ninjas without even caring but it's okay, because they're not from the same clan. Orochimaru is apparently the BBEG because he instigates wars and conducts human experimentation and kills people for power. These are all bad things. Yet by the same token, Konoha (the city of the 'good guys') permanently employs a ninja whose sole job it is to torture people for information. This includes noncombatants, as he did to Kakuzu's contact. And they're not even ashamed. This sadist has tea and cookies with the other ninja like nothing even happened.

Or there's also the fact that Konoha tolerates torture, human slavery, and forced incest. You know, the Hyuuga clan. You know, how they capture you and brand a seal onto your forehead at age 4 which forces you to do whatever your older siblings say or they will literally destroy your brain. The Uchiha clan does not exclusively marry other clanmates, there are Uchihas that don't have the bloodline limit. But every single Hyuga shown so far in the anime, even in flashbacks, has the signature Byakugan. No one really cares. They say that they do, but no one is really lifting a finger to stop this inhumane practice.

Not that I would expect them to. I mean, they're thrusting kids not even in puberty into life and death situations where they're expected to kill.

And what's the grand reason why they're doing all this?

Money.

It's explained early on in the series that the entire ninja society is set up so that ninjas have a monopoly on war and conflict. If some sovereign wants an enemy assassinated or some land, he pays ninjas money to get the edge he needs and the money goes back to their village. To pay for their communist lifestyle, obviously, as none of the villages show any means of support or economics outside of combat.


That said, the huge evil organization, Akatsuki, are actually the HEROES of the series. They plan to attain world domination via gaining control of giant demons. No, they don't plan to kill everyone and spread terror until everyone submits, they plan to use the demons for missions to massively undercut every other ninja village until they go bankrupt and the societies dissolve. Since they're the only ones with any money and any power, they declare themselves rulers of the world and put an end to all conflict.

It is a messy business. Since the organization is small, they have to rely on complete bastards like Orochimaru and Hidan for their muscle and to actually capture the demons in the first place. People do die by the hands of these murderers. Undoubtedly, if the Akatsuki actually got their giant unstoppable demons the world would probably still try to hold out before their economy collapsed.

But as opposed to the state of perpetual war that currently exists, where little kids are sent to die terrified in some slimy forest and evil slimeballs like the Hyuuga clan wield political power, they are the heroes. Plain and simple.

[User3]

Nice explanation Lago. I've never seen Naruto, but that sounds interesting.


Also: "Legendary sannin." Heh.

[Lago_AM3P]

I am willing to admit that I am more ashamed of liking Naruto than I am of liking the first part of Dragonball (and Z, before the Cell arc).

But damn, this series starts off SLOW. I don't blame anyone for not really getting into it until about episode 30, when things pick up. If I hadn't jumped into the series around when Shikamaru shows up (and he's a big selling point of the series) I probably would've gotten bored and never looked back.

Of course, One Piece, which I still like, has the same problem but at least it's weird enough so that it doesn't feel like it's plodding.

[CalibronXXX]

I've seen a little Naruto, in both cartoon and Manga form, it seems to try to take the comedy and wacky techniques of early Dragonball, mix it with the OVER 9000!!! of later Dragonball, inject all this into a semi-realistic somewhat-recent-past setting, and apply serious drama and characterization to the whole mess. As far as I can it fails on all accounts. I've seen both the very early and post Chunin Exam parts of the series.

I liked pre-Android Saga Dragonball better. Hell I liked the Cell and Buu Sagas better, at least they were weird and/or familiar enough to be entertaining.

On an unrelated note: Goku was a horrendous father.