So, Kosovo

[Koumei]

Wow, it wasn't even that long ago that I was in school, hearing about the Nato bombings and that, and here they are, only 8-9 years later...

Anyway, there's something I always found as a bit weird. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding has always been this:
*Kosovo was just part of Serbia, which was part of Yugoslavia, or under Yugoslavian rule. Or something.
*Thanks to... Italy? A huge number of Albanians were displaced into Kosovo.
*Eventually, there was an Albanian majority in Kosovo, and they started oppressing the Serb minority *this is one bit I'm not that sure about*
*Slobodan Milosevic took this as an opportunity to become powerful, making use of Serbian resentment and playing them like an accordion.
*Genocide ensues.
*Nato bombings follow.
*Serbian forces retreat/surrender.
*Everyone in the UN leaves, saying "Well done" except for Sweden, and the Albanians immediately decide to return the favour and try to kill off the Serbs.
*Swedish forces defend a Serbian Monastery in a scene you'd expect to see in 300.
*Zoom ahead to now.
*Everyone says Serbs are clearly the bad guys here, and Albanians never did anything wrong.

That's the message I'm getting from the news sources. "Serbs = bad guys" (granted, the one Serb I know basically confirmed that. "I'm Serbian so I'll stab you in the back the moment it sounds like a good idea!") and "Albanians are victims, nothing else ever."

So, can someone who knows more about his clear it up? Yes, I know I tend to accept anything at face value so people here could spin whatever story they like, but for whatever reason, I consider you guys well informed, and have just been a little confused on the matter.

[Username17]

The Albanians have gotten a shit deal since they first came on the scene. They live in a shitty mountainous region that is shit. Albania is a horrible place above and beyond the fact that the government is corrupt and incompetent, and their national economy collapsed in 1997 because of a pyramid scheme that had gotten too large.

So they leave. They move out of Albanian lands into places that don't suck as much. They go to Italy if they can, but sometimes the Italians remember their agreements with the rest of the EU to stop illegal immigration and clamp down. Then they move out to other countries.

Kosovo is also a shit hole. If you didn't have to live there, you would not do it. And so Serbians (the historical owners of Kosovo) tend to move out. But it's not as shitty as Albania, so Albanians move in. And of course, Milosovic went all crazy hat on the place and tried to ethnically cleanse the place of Albanians. Clinton defeated Milosovic in personal combat, and the rest is history.

---

Anyways, in the years since the Bosnian war, the Serbs have decided that they didn't really want to let Kosovo have a referendum on independence after all. Also, Kosovar Albanians have taken retributive measures on Serbians, setting fire to dozens of Serbian Orthodox Churches all over the province.

The Albanians are not good guys in this story. There are no good guys. The Albanians are, however, victims more than anything in the Kosovo region. Also they have learned nothing and forgotten nothing so peace keepers are going to have to go right back in and smack Albanians around in the very near future. Expect those peace keepers to be Russian soldiers.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Oh, I wouldn't call anyone good guys, but the media vibe is that they are the team to wave flags for.

So, it's a shit place that Serbia wouldn't even want, except for the principle of the thing, and because everyone is still angry about what happened before.

I sort of wondered if there might be trouble again, and noted how lucky Serbia is to have Russia on its side (seeing as no-one else is - and maybe BECAUSE no-one else is. You know, Putin just sits around, waits for Bush to say one thing, then says the complete opposite just because he wants to be the villain in a Bond movie).

[Draco_Argentum]

That sounds like Putin is trying to do the least retarded thing possible but doesn't want to have to figure out what it is.

[Neeek]

1203582590[/unixtime]] You know, Putin just sits around, waits for Bush to say one thing, then says the complete opposite just because he wants to be the villain in a Bond movie).

I don't know if taking the stance that Bush is wrong all the time is likely to be regarded as villainous by most people.

[Koumei]

Well, that's a really valid point, but seeing as Bush theoretically represents America and has America's best interests at heart (ignoring the fact that neither of these are true by any stretch of the imagination), waving two fingers at him could be seen as waving two fingers at America, or at non-communists in general. Or something.

Who knows, really?

[cthulhu]

Given the choice of the EU or the russians I'd probably prefer the EU. It does remain to be seen if they can actually deliver, but the proposed initative does look like it holds promise.

[PhoneLobster]

So Putin gets to do the less retarded thing AND...

could be seen as waving two fingers at America

So pretty much a win win situation really.

[josephbt]

Kosovo is not such a shit hole regarding mineral deposits. It has enough of metal deposits to last a millenium.

Anyway, the fun fact about this whole farce called independance is how the EU declared that it is not a presedan. Yeah, a third of country simply declares that it is independant, regardles of the constitution, and it is not a presedan? Do i smell the fear of Flanders, Baskia and Scottland?

[JonSetanta]

Slobodan Milosevic was a vampire.
But thanks to hard-working vampire hunters, prevention of his return has been ensured.

[ckafrica]

Well lets remember that Kosovo has massive symbolic importance to the Serbs as the scene of many important battles against the Ottomans dating as far back as 1389. Giving it up is hard on the ego even if it is not a particularly valuable territory. Imaging giving the Alamo to Mexico and how the Texans would feel (though that is not a perfect analogy as Kosovo as was actually part of Serbia whereas Texas was Hispanic)

[Crissa]

I'm not sure how well your analogy failed, since the Alamo was Mexican, and the Texans basically let the Mexicans fight and die for independence (twice) from Spain and Mexico before joining the States, and then basically wrote out of the record and worked to steal land from the remaining Mexicans in Texas.

That 60% of the population is Latino in California is no surprise, as it was a similar percentage when Statehood was achieved. Subnote, Texas wasn't the only State to gain its independence before joining the States, as California did as well.

-Crissa

[ckafrica]

The difference is that Kosovo was originally part of Serbia so serbia is being asked to give up territory that was historically part of itself whereas Texas was conquested. Now I'm not a big proponent of historical rights as the Albanians have been there for a long time now, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a sore spot for the Serbs to have to give up land they have fought 600 years for.

[Crissa]

Texas was 'conquested' by whom?

-Crissa

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I would imagine that CK is speaking of Spain, thouch conquered is not exactly the best term, more like "Settled"

-Des

[ckafrica]

Well I did say that Texas wasn't a great analogy because it's history of ownership is not as clear cut as Kosovo's. While it was originally a Mexican state it was not definitively Mexican as a culture before the Anglo's moved in and eventually wrestled control of the territory away from them.

[Crissa]

That seems totally like the situation, ck.

Outsiders were invited in, and then stole the state and committed genocide.

-Crissa

[ckafrica]

Well again not exactly. Kosovo was part of Serbia who then lost it,and later regained authority over it again after the ethnic and religious demographic changed. Mexico had authority over texas, let the anglos in who began to outnumber the latinos and then the Anglos sought independence.

But we are just splitting hairs. The original point was that Serbian identity has a special historical correlation with Kosovo which goes beyond a simple imperialistic desire to hold onto territory or genocidal mania.

[Crissa]

So Spain owned Texas. Settled it. The settlers fought Spain. Lost.

Later, it became Mexico. It was settled with Anglos as well. They (Anglos and Spanish) fought for independence. They won.

Then the Texans killed off the Spanish in Texas and joined the US as a slave state.

Only in the twentieth century were Anglos not actually a minority in their own state. The native population, the Spanish, Mexicanos, and then African slaves imported to the state far outnumbered them when taken together.

Even in this century there have been fights about settlements - first settled by the Spanish three hundred years ago - which don't have running water and the children seek schooling in Mexico (or from Mexico to the US) because of the remoteness of the desert farming towns.

Even in California, until after the mid-twentieth century, they were shipping native Latino (Spanish, Mexicanos) Californians to Mexican California or Baja California to deny them their civil rights as US citizens.

-Crissa