Who is the most famous wizard in D&D?

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:40 am

There's also the thing about Elminster being the most egregious example of an Arty Stu in the whole hobby, the Ur-Mary Sue from which all Mary Sues stem from in roleplaying games.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:19 am

Whipstitch wrote:That and both settings have a shit ton of other authors traipsing around. I'm pretty sure as a shared universe Dragonlance produced more titles but I have no idea how that translates out to total sales or which setting has had a longer tail.

My general impression is that Dragonlance outperformed FR in the novel department up until shortly after 3e came out - when the situation gradually flipped. That's a consequence of both FRs much greater support under WotC and Dragonlance's self-destructive 'Fifth Age' experiment in rebooting. You could definitely see a gradual shift in who got the most shelving space at major bookstores over time.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:23 am

Jon Irenicus and Imoen also are well-known D&D wizards, renowned inside and outside of the D&D community.

For me, the order would be:

1/ Elminster. well-known among fanboys, and among people thinking he's a poorly executed power fantasy.

2/ Several Baldur's gate's characters (I can't remember of any wizard in Neverwinter's night or any other D&D videogame; but any memorable wizard from D&D videogames would also be here).

3/ Bigby, Mordenkainen et al. You know they exists and they like hands or manors or hentai monsters just by reading the rules.

4/ That girl from the D&D movie with Christopher Walken ? I mean, nobody liked this movie but everyone saw it ; and that girl casts actual iconic D&D spells like DimDoor.

5/ everyone else, like Kelben or Raistlin or Iucounu (not a D&D wizard per say, but an inspiration of all D&D wizardry). All those wizards you have to read the right book to know they exist.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:29 am

Jim Darkmagic?

souran · Post by **souran** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:27 pm

GâtFromKI wrote:
3/ Bigby, Mordenkainen et al. You know they exists and they like hands or manors or hentai monsters just by reading the rules.

5/ everyone else, like Kelben or Raistlin or Iucounu (not a D&D wizard per say, but an inspiration of all D&D wizardry). All those wizards you have to read the right book to know they exist.

I would say you are wrong on both these points.

Biby, Mordenkainen, etc. are all part of the Greyhawk circle of 8, but nobody really had a freaking clue about them between 1986 when they got rid of Gygax and when the freaking Greyhawk 3rd edition book came out. The only thing people know about them is that some of their spells are good and others suck. Does anybody know a single thing about Melf other than he is "Melf the magic elf"? Does anybody have a freaking clue between Bigby, Otelieuk, Melf, Mordenkainen etc who was whose apprentice and what the hell they did or stood for?

There are people who read and have read the dragonlance books, especially the first 4 (they are not good) who have never played D&D. The three most recognizable D&D characters are probably Drizzt, Eleminster, and Raistlin. Drizzt and Eleminster are probably nearly tied and Raistlin is defiantly 3rd, but Raistlin is ahead of any of the group of 8 wizards who lives past 3rd level in Gygax's home games.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:31 pm

The number of people I know who have read the Dragonlance books is somewhere between 1 and 2. I know many people who have seen the D&D movie, and many people who have played D&D - and heard about melf's acid arrow.

I agree that "people I know" isn't a statistical sample.

Anyway, the few people I know who have read Dragonlance books are saying it's shit flavored shit. That's part of the reasons I didn't read it. And also because reading shitty books takes more time than seeing shitty movies : when I read a book, I want it to be good.

And you want me to believe there are more people who have read some shitty niche fantasy book than people who have seen a legendary bad movie or people who have played D&D ? You're delusional. Iucounu or Murgen or comes from good books, and still they aren't as well-known as Bigby or that girl from the D&D movie.

Raistlin is at the bottom with all those wizards nobody cares about except a handful of fanboys.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:25 pm

erik wrote:Jim Darkmagic?

Jim Darkmagic is soooo 2009. The 2016 pop-culture D&D Wizard would have to be Will the Wise

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:49 pm

Yeah, "people I know" isn't terribly convincing. No single wizard actually travels every avenue of fame that's been mentioned, so I wouldn't be that dismissive. Due to tension with TSR Weis & Hickman's baby didn't enjoy prolonged company support the same way FR did but Raistlin was still indisputably the face of the setting. Plus, Elminster may be more of a by-the-numbers heroic Marty Stu but Raistlin has a reputation of his own when it comes to generating eyerolls. Special hair, eyes, and skin, genre savvy, endless snark and plotting--he's an on-the-nose anti-hero through and through. If Raistlin comes across as less special snowflake than Elminster it's only because his authors wrote him as being too sulky to ever bother getting laid.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:16 pm

Well, he did get laid once (prequel? short story or some such). Some ogre chick (well, Irda, which were the extra special good ogres which were also beautiful)

As for genre savvy... not really. He was kind of a moron when it came to that sort of thing, making naive deals with soul-sucking abominations and destroying the world in attempt to become a god. He mostly just had magical plot charisma which wasn't reconcilable with his actual (lack of) personality- he was an eternal tween that felt the world owed him something.

souran · Post by **souran** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:15 pm

GâtFromKI wrote:The number of people I know who have read the Dragonlance books is somewhere between 1 and 2. I know many people who have seen the D&D movie, and many people who have played D&D - and heard about melf's acid arrow.

I agree that "people I know" isn't a statistical sample.

Anyway, the few people I know who have read Dragonlance books are saying it's shit flavored shit. That's part of the reasons I didn't read it. And also because reading shitty books takes more time than seeing shitty movies : when I read a book, I want it to be good.

And you want me to believe there are more people who have read some shitty niche fantasy book than people who have seen a legendary bad movie or people who have played D&D ? You're delusional. Iucounu or Murgen or comes from good books, and still they aren't as well-known as Bigby or that girl from the D&D movie.

Raistlin is at the bottom with all those wizards nobody cares about except a handful of fanboys.

What the fuck are you talking about. If we use the D&D movie as basis of whose the most famous D&D wizard is Jeremy Irons because people remember he was in that dog turd but nobody knows what the fuck his character's name was.

The question is not "are the dragonlance novels good" because that was answered a long time ago and the answer is no. However, they were written at a time with people thought David fucking Eddings was a good fantasy writer.

The thing about the D&D novels is that there are a lot of them, and Barnes and Noble is a thing. The are shelves and shelves of Dragonlance novels, none good that are read by people many of whom don't even know D&D is a fucking game at all. Additionally, they still write them, while nobody gives a shit about fifteen year old movie or its even worse sci-fi channel sequels.

Its not like any of these characters are known at the level of Harry Potter, or Gandalf, or even Thomas Covenant or Kovthe. They are known in the same way that third tier Star Wars characters are known. People who read a lot of fantasy novels or play D&D or realistically both.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:22 pm

Does having a large number of people who know that Bigby is "I guess the guy who invented that one spell" equal more fame than having a smaller number of people know Raistlin as "the guy who had a time travel plot to kill the gods" or Elminster as "the guy who slept his way to the job of archmage?" There's a degree of fame in having your name known at all, but I don't think the Greyhawk wizards can be considered the most famous wizard on the basis of that alone. Almost nobody knows who they actually were.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:41 pm

I just don't get the idea that Evard and Bigby don't count, because people just know the spells they invented, but Raistlin counts because a smaller number of people vaguely recall that was the name of a character in books they didn't read.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:04 pm

Yeah, if you asked me to name D&D wizards, I'm going to come up with Bigby, Mordenkain, Evard, Elminster, and Raistlin (in that order). After that, I'm tapped out. Bigby will always be the wizard I most easily remember because his spells were the only way my sorcerer could kill Mephistopheles in the NWN expansion; hold him in place with some high level Bigby's hands and then chip him to death with acid arrow. He was immune to basically everything else I had. Good times. Mordenkain gets second place just for having more spells I'm familiar with even if I use the only Evard spell I know (black tentacles) more than all of Mordenkain's combined.

Berkserker · Post by **Berkserker** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:29 pm

I think that Elminster and Raistlin top the list, with Raistlin being a distant second. Everyone else is way below them. Everyone who's played FR can't *not* be aware of Elminster, and Raistlin has kids named after him. They're still very much the faces of their settings.

Below those two, I'd think you have Evard and the characters from Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Evard has a spell that anyone whose campaign goes long enough actually uses, so he at least has a degree of immediate name recognition. I dunno, he might go down a slot, but he's definitely above the last tier. BG and NWN characters were involved in popular media that even /TG/ will claim is related to their interests despite being vidya.

Dragonlance had a lot of fans at its peak, so Fistandantilus and Magius might slot in here. Name recognition from popular media and all that. I'd put it below BG and NWN despite book sales because the games generated recognition and had fans outside of the usual tabletop fanbase, and I'm not sure the same can be said for the Dragonlance novels. Then again these guys are pretty important to the backstory of the DL setting, which might offset the cross-fanbase appeal of the vidya characters. They might belong up a step but I'm not sure they do.

Even below that, I'd say, are the wizards who did stuff in their settings but aren't Elminster or Raistlin. Guys like Bigby, Melf, Kelben Blackstaff, so forth and so on. They have spells nobody really cares all that much about for the most part, and in FR they show up here and there I guess? You have to really care about the setting or play modules for them to be meaningful, I think.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:07 pm

Do the spell-namer wizards even still get credit for their spells? Didn't that get dropped at some point, or was it brought back for 5e? If not, their name recognition is fast-fading.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:19 pm

Mechalich wrote:Do the spell-namer wizards even still get credit for their spells? Didn't that get dropped at some point, or was it brought back for 5e? If not, their name recognition is fast-fading.

They've gotten credit in every edition, but their names have been removed from the SRD.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:20 pm

Mechalich wrote:Do the spell-namer wizards even still get credit for their spells? Didn't that get dropped at some point, or was it brought back for 5e? If not, their name recognition is fast-fading.

1) I have no idea with 5e, but I also don't care. I think the number of people who have played 5e who haven't played 3e are basically a rounding error.

2) What you might be remembering is that in 3e their names are removed from the spells in the SRD, but not the PHB.

souran · Post by **souran** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:13 am

Kaelik wrote:I just don't get the idea that Evard and Bigby don't count, because people just know the spells they invented, but Raistlin counts because a smaller number of people vaguely recall that was the name of a character in books they didn't read.

Nobody can describe Biby. Nobody can identify what race Evard was. Nobody can describe any distinguishing feature of Mordenkainen. These guys don't fucking exist. Their names are completely interchangeable. If we stuck Melfs name on black tentaicles it wouldn't "feel" wrong because there is nothing about those characters that anybody fucking knows.

People can describe Elemnister. People can describe Drizzt. People can describe Raistlin. They actually fucking exist.

Also, if people get to drag the god fucking awful movie into the mix for who is famous and who is not then we also get to count the dragonlance cartoon.

People have already pointed out the Kiefer Sutherland played fucking Raistlin, that movie is newer, and that also made the rounds with the animie crowd.

I get that dragonlance isn't popular here, and Weis and Hickman are complete hacks, but lets get real. Dragonlance is a fucking cash cow. It makes money because people who don't realize we live in a new golden age of fantasy novels continue to read the dogshit shovelware novels.

I don't even fucking like Raistlin. I hate him even more than normal because I swapped a copy of "Game of Thrones" for "Dragons of the Autumn Twilight" when I should have fucking known better because this person tried to compare David God Damn Eddings to Robert Jordan and Stephen R Donaldson. (I have also had more than one person argue with me at Origins that Dragonlance is as good as Earthsea)

This isn't about what is garbage and what is worth reading or knowing. This is what people know. People fucking know lots of garbage.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:27 am

I get that dragonlance isn't popular here, and Weis and Hickman are complete hacks, but lets get real. Dragonlance is a fucking cash cow. It makes money because people who don't realize we live in a new golden age of fantasy novels continue to read the dogshit shovelware novels.

Except, of course... The last reissue of the dragonlance books was fucking 2000. New Drizzit books continue to be made and the last reissue was just two years ago.

So those dogshit shovelware novels are pretty unavailable to most people, and DL hasn't been a 'cash cow' since last century. You're grossly overestimating the number of people that care, remember or 'know' that shit.

Also, Bigby was human, Melf was a Grey Elf, and Drawmij --> Jim Ward.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:39 am

Bucknard for days, chumps.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:41 am

I have to second Voss on this, I used to chill in Barns and Noble on my lunch break when I worked over the summer during high school. I used to live in the fantasy section of libraries. I still checked out books from the library and bought physical books until like, 3 years ago? I read the first three Mistborn books and Alloy of Law before I owned a Kindle. That's fucking recent. I never saw a Dragonlance books in any book store or in any library in my life.

I saw one dragonlance book ever, it is mine, it was given to me by an Aunt who is 60+ years old when she moved and cleared out her closet.

It's not that I'm not counting people who read the books, it's that nobody goddam read the books, and if they did, it was more than 20 years ago and literally all they remember is that he exists. I mean, I read like, maybe the first book? I couldn't tell you anything about Raistlin except: 1) I heard someone say he has weird eyes in this thread, and that reminded me that he has weird eyes, but I wouldn't have remembered that otherwise. 2) He wore red then black robes.

That means that I know more than every human being I've ever met (except possibly my aunt) and more than like 90% of this forum.

Dragonlance isn't a big fucking deal. People like shit, sure, but that doesn't mean any shit you can think of has a following still.

Also for what it is worth, I can't describe Evard or Mordenkienen, but I read like, 3-4 Eliminster books and I can't describe him either. Almost like descriptions of the physical characteristics of people who are literary figures who's primary characteristic is using magic powers to alter reality isn't the best metric of anything.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:46 am

Voss wrote:You're grossly overestimating the number of people that care, remember or 'know' that shit.

Not as grossly as you're overestimating the number of people who know anything about Bigby other than his name and the spells it's attached to. Dragonlance is a passed fad, but Greyhawk wizards were Trivial Pursuit questions even at their height.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:17 am

The heyday of Dragonlance novels was the mid 1990s. They were still making novels throughout the 2000s but these were mostly marginal productions or ones that did not advance the timeline. The last new Dragonlance novel I can find was The Fate of Thorbardin by Douglas Niles published in 2010. They reissued the Legends trilogy in 2011 and that was it for the line.

Forgotten Realms novels did quite well throughout the 2000s, but production has dipped significantly since 2012 and the number of active authors is way down.

Major novels in both product lines - such as the Chronicles trilogy and pretty much anything with Drizzt - are still in print and available and retain rather high popularity ranks on Amazon. Dragons of Autumn Twilight is #23 in Kindle Fantasy Classics, putting it ahead of Thomas Covenant, The Black Company, a number of Pern novels, and The Mists of Avalon. While Kindle categories are suspect in organization, there's clearly continuing interest in the series.

Raistlin is probably the most well-known wizard to come out of D&D novels - since the novels he happens to be in a more popular than the novels that Elminster appears in, and there's a strong case to be made that those novels have a much greater exposure than tabletop D&D material ever has. Video games still almost certainly beat both, however, so a case can definitely be made for whomever you think the most famous BG mage is - probably Imoen since you have to get her.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:30 am

Chamomile wrote:
Voss wrote:You're grossly overestimating the number of people that care, remember or 'know' that shit.
Not as grossly as you're overestimating the number of people who know anything about Bigby other than his name and the spells it's attached to. Dragonlance is a passed fad, but Greyhawk wizards were Trivial Pursuit questions even at their height.

Of course they are. But this is a thread about about Trivial Pursuit Questions.

Bigby and Company have been around for 40+ years and still get referenced. Dragonlance started over a decade later and got buried by its creators in under a decade (5th Age says fuck you goodbye). WotC did a round of reprints just to cash the checks then did its level best to forget the property ever existed.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:47 am

Voss wrote:Of course they are. But this is a thread about about Trivial Pursuit Questions.

No, it's a thread about fame. "Who is Barrack Obama" is not a Trivial Pursuit question because it is too obvious. That's the level of fame that Raistlin and Elminster were at when they were at their most famous, and they were at their most famous 15-20 years ago. People who were born before Raistlin's fame are not old enough to drink and very few of the people who learned about Raistlin during the heights of his popularity have died. Expecting Raistlin's recognition to have died in that short a time is like asking random people on the street who Captain Planet is and expecting to universally get blank stares. He's a generational fad, but that generation is still alive and those alive people know much more about him than just his name, which is all they know about Melf, Evard, and Mordenkainen.