Frank and K, don't make me beg.

[cthulhu]

You have an extremely valid point, though I'm not sure severity is the right word then, maybe bugs need to be classified on this scale:

Frequency * Impact = Severity and we can have a separate scale for both, but it's not a linear multiplication. Any bug that has an impact of <ends the game> regardless of frequency

[Psychic Robot]

It only took four posts for someone to come in with a suggestion that they ignore every bug that "doesn't come up often" IE "We don't need to fix the Economy, Shadow armies, or anything else, because DM can fix it!"

Way to go Paizo, exactly what we expected.

I'm not seeing it. The guy said, "Ideally one would want to fix any serious problem, regardless of how uncommon it seems to be. Normally that would be a little unrealistic, but with an open playtesting community like this it might be worth shooting for."

I'm talking about the one two posts above that, where he suggests a second axis for how common a problem is.

Say you added that, and then actually used the system to playtest something:

Suddenly someone (Frank) points out infinite Wealth at level 9 being an A class bug. What happens next?

Aubrey the Malformed and Lich-Loved jump in saying, "But we shouldn't waste time fixing that, because it rates so low on the commonality axis, because DMs can fix it."

Or

Sorcerers are a B class bug because they are inferior to Wizards. Lich-Loved: But they rate only average on the commonality axis, because most people aren't optimizers, better things to spend our time on.

The rating on the commonality axis is going to be inversely proportional to how big a bug it is, because if something is really bad (infinite wealth) then players and DMs are going to avoid it on purpose. If a class is weaker, but playable, only good optimizers will play it as a challenge, or people who don't care about being useful.

So adding a second axis as proposed serves the purpose of ranking all errors as equally not worthy of being fixed, giving Jason an excuse to continue not fixing anything, because his time is better spent making the Sorcerer more flavorful.

Ah, makes sense. Heh. Maybe there will be more changes made after the Alpha 3 release. I mean, one can always hope, right?

[virgil]

It's like a combination popularity contest and Oberoni Fallacy writ large. Paizo can & is riding on their success from their time as publishers for Dragon & Dungeon magazine so as to not have to try to improve the game at all, making the whole open playtest another form of advertisement.

K made some excellent points as to what could make the Tome series accepted and popular.

Why aren't they adopted?

A. No art. Trust me, if we had original art for these babies, people would print them out and they'd be on gaming tables.

B. Incomplete. We don't have a PHB, or a DMG, or an MM. The rules we've written are additional complications to a system, and sometimes are awkwardly integrated. If we had them in fully integrated systems, it'd be far easier to swallow.

C. We violate the "Don't Look Behind the Curtain Rule". We actually tell people why we've made certain choices, and that allows people to argue with our conclusions without addressing our facts.

People will argue until they are blue in the face that the RoW Fighter is broken, but very few will actually playtest a fight with a few MM monsters.

[Psychic Robot]

What's RoW?

[virgil]

Races of War. The link to it is in the Tome Threads sticky.

[Kaelik]

Psychic Robot, are you new here? Joining from a link on Paizo?

The Tomes are what bring most people here as far as I know. And that's why I found so many comments made at Paizo aimed at Frank&K "If you don't like it, go make your own better 3.5!" so hilarious.

I find the Tomes to be:
1) More Extensive
2) More Backwards compatible
3) More balanced with 3.5 D&D
4) Better, as defined subjectively by me

then Alpha 2. I almost registered there just to come in under someone and tell them that Frank&K already have made a better 3.5.

[Draco_Argentum]

Frequency * Impact = Severity and we can have a separate scale for both, but it's not a linear multiplication. Any bug that has an impact of <ends the game> regardless of frequency

Thats what Frank was proposing. In effect it mirrors risk management processes used in engineering etc. Risk is made up of the number of corpses and the chance it'll happen.

Its a similar circumstance for RPGs. A class bugs can't happen at all but we can probably grin and bear it for a rare B. Once it becomes frequent that B is up there in importance with a rare A.

[Koumei]

I find the Tomes to be:
1) More Extensive
2) More Backwards compatible
3) More balanced with 3.5 D&D
4) Better, as defined subjectively by me

5) Fucking hilarious (alternatively "an interesting read")

[PhoneLobster]

Holy fucking potato. That circle jerk of retards I was looking at before has now offended ME.

I mean CULT OF FRANK, bloody heck. It's like they imagine there is no possibility that anyone performing some minimal critical analysis will reach many of the same conclusions independently and then agree with Frank on the basis of actual reason and observation.

Those guys really are ludites and revellers in faith based ignorance. They even describe the gaming den/those that (to some unknown degree) agree with Frank as being Evil Villains based on traits of numeracy and a desire for fairness!

why does the cult of trollman sound so...well evil.......new villains for my game.. order though math and balance...or else

That one actually literally expresses hate for science, truth and justice in the same sentence without batting an eye! AND NO ONE ELSE EVEN NOTICES.

Some people just never stopped living in the dark ages. The enlightenment was just something that happened to OTHER people.

[Username17]

Some people just never stopped living in the dark ages. The enlightenment was just something that happened to OTHER people.

Yes.

I am legitimately unsure if douchebags like Aubrey actually buy their own shit about how they aren't insulting people when they repeatedly hound them about not being nice enough or having various mental problems. I don't even care. The important part is that anyone who isn't a blithering idiot can see through those kinds of charades and the Paizo designers side with him again and again despite his total lack of contribution of in-game insight.

So yeah, those guys are in-house character assassins. And they are set to go after anyone who advances the cause of truth, inquiry, or peer review.

By the way, Aubrey the Malformed's ( Profile details deleted - fbmf). He uses too many words to talk about things that he likes and doesn't like and rarely if ever gives concrete examples.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

Honestly, I see no reason to even bother with Paizo. The environment there is identical to the one at WotC, which makes sense as it is in fact the same people, or at least the same sort of people.

[Fwib]

"Convicted of witchcraft" sounds like great CV-fodder, if only one was not in a country where that could actually happen.

[Koumei]

How about "declared the leader and/or figure of worship of an evil cult"?

[Maxus]

-wears a big black cowled robe, chants-

Si Frank Omnipotens dicat, ergo omnes audiunt.

[Psychic Robot]

Psychic Robot, are you new here? Joining from a link on Paizo?

Yes. After Frank got banned, someone mentioned this website, so I tracked it down and started laughing at all the humorous posts.

[CatharzGodfoot]

At least here the circle-jerking is accompanied by witty repartee (and historically, at least, too many penis metaphors).

[JonSetanta]

Ironically in one of the first campaigns I ever DM'd there was this remote outpost like a fantasy "Mid Western" town ravaged by demihuman experiments.
You know, like byproducts of mad wizard-scientists researching the Ultimate Warrior Race. Cliche, but fun. Things like Ogre-Elves or Troll-Orcs.
The party had killed the wizards in a previous session.
This time, all their 'creations' ran wild.

There was this tight-knit group of half-Troll spellcasters that directed a hostile occupation of a dwarven mine to secure resources for their longterm plans.
Cult of the trollmen.

And even though it ended in a flop, with half the group becoming bored and the other half accusing me of running a Monty Haul yet with no hope of winning the final encounter (it was my second DMing experience ever, but then again they didn't bother to try much), in retrospect when one games with a group of social-reject angry teen male virgins these things tend to happen.


I suspect Paizo isn't any exception to the Internet Douchebag theory. There's similar circle jerking on Monte Cook's forum, /tg/, WOTC, everywhere. But Paizoians believe themselves to be........ special.

[Koumei]

Cult of the trollmen.

Epic win

(it was my second DMing experience ever, but then again they didn't bother to try much)

Yeah, that happens often with early DM experiences.

/tg/

In before Wings of Flurry/Touhou

But Paizoians believe themselves to be........ special.

Well they DO take the "special" bus to school, does that count?

[cthulhu]

At least here the circle-jerking is accompanied by witty repartee (and historically, at least, too many penis metaphors).

Yeah, we do often get the circle jerk on. Luckily I'm a big fan of the band. Its still not a bad forum all things considered.

Frequency * Impact = Severity and we can have a separate scale for both, but it's not a linear multiplication. Any bug that has an impact of <ends the game> regardless of frequency

Thats what Frank was proposing. In effect it mirrors risk management processes used in engineering etc. Risk is made up of the number of corpses and the chance it'll happen.

Its a similar circumstance for RPGs. A class bugs can't happen at all but we can probably grin and bear it for a rare B. Once it becomes frequent that B is up there in importance with a rare A.

Yeah, I think we are all probably saying exactly the same things with various levels of clarity to other participants in the discussion. We are all using software bug trackers as our common touchstone and various understandings of 'severity' that are all probably close enough. Right.

[JonSetanta]

In before Wings of Flurry/Touhou

FUCKING TOUHOU EVERY FUCKING THREAD BY "XOM'S CHAMPION" GRAAAAAAAA

Wings of Flurry on the other hand isn't such a Bad Thing....

[Draco_Argentum]

That one actually literally expresses hate for science, truth and justice in the same sentence without batting an eye! AND NO ONE ELSE EVEN NOTICES.

In the interests of fair play, care to provide a direct quote. I don't want to wade through that morass to find it myself.

[TGFBS] Reference to previous edited post deleted[/TGFBS]

Since we're being watched this is for the Paizo types too. The cult thing is exactly what I'm talking about when I say passive-aggressive trolling. Aubrey knew full well that cult these days has a negative connotation. He also knows that this negative connotation is what springs to mind when people hear it, not the more benign definitions.

The old WotC boards had people doing exactly the same thing. Roxxlim being a perfect example that most of the old timer tgd members would remember. Sure, the moderators usually don't do anything. Its only borderline flaming and they have lots of blatant flames and spam to go after. So it says and poisons the discourse.

I suppose telling the Paizo board that would be best done on the Paizo board. Since creating a new account to tell people off has never worked in the history of the internet it can stay here for anyone watching to think about.

[PhoneLobster]

In the interests of fair play, care to provide a direct quote.

I did, the quote I gave was a direct quote and indeed an entire post.

There were some others dancing around the same sort of thing but that was the real eye bleeder.

What else do you want? User name and time stamp?

[Voss]

Don't forget that Frank *must* have Asperger's syndrome. Because, you know, thats nice and trendy and an easy excuse for anyone on the internets these days.

[Username17]

It wounds me that you would think that I would be so shallow as to merely check his Avatar Profile. No, when he went through my trivially easy to parse internet history and turned up nuggets of past events and held them up irrelevantly in debate as some sort of lame attempt at intimidation, I simply opened up his Amazon history. His resume. His (understandably) amateurish uni projects. And I found... exactly what I expected to find.

He writes long winded ad uninteresting reviews for all kinds of crap - music cds that he likes, crunchless D&D books, paperback fantasy novels, whatever. And while I honestly couldn't care enough to actually read through all that morass, it seems equally obvious that most other people can't either - the number of people who find his reviews helpful or even interesting enough to rate are pretty low. He has a tendency to give out 4 stars a lot, and he really likes books that will probably never come up in any game (like the various obscure Forgotten Realms books that don't really have anything in them).

And as you probably guessed, he's completely unqualified to give out any of the psychological diagnoses that he throws around like popcorn. He's not a doctor, he's never going to be a doctor. He doubtless doesn't really know what most of those even mean, he's just trying to sound important. He does that a lot.

---

But he's also exactly what Paizo wants. He's going to write a long winded review of Pathfinder RPG that won't really say or analyze anything. And he'll give it 4 stars. If they can get 20 people just like him they can generate some real (if incomprehensible) buzz on Amazon and RPG.net that will sell real products.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

Don't forget that Frank *must* have Asperger's syndrome. Because, you know, thats nice and trendy and an easy excuse for anyone on the internets these days.

An excuse for what?