Video Games

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:28 am

Honestly, the current state of the CRPG industry is a pretty great mirror of the current state of the TTRPG industry. Instead of "hey, what do people want? We should do that," it's "hey, what were people doing before most of our players were even born? We should do that."

Divinity Original Sin basically came out of nowhere from an almost bankrupt nobody studio with a record of hastily released, buggy trash, didn't particularly innovate within the medium at all except by adding solid co-op functionality, and made so much goddamn money it ought to have defined the genre for the foreseeable future. Then they did it again a few years down the road. There is no reason for anyone taking a crack at a CRPG to not look at Divinity Original Sin and say "how do I do that?" instead of "how do I shovel out a neo-Infinity Engine game?" Exactly one of the neo-Infinity Engine games has come anywhere near Divinity Original Sin and that's PoE1, maybe.

I think the secret is that Larian Studios is Belgian, and as such they have no connections to the Silicon Valley CRPG/TTRPG clique, so there's no one around to give them the "common sense advice" that they need to publish Baldur's Gate clones or else they'll wind up the next Troika. Corporate incest basically means the west can't make a good turn-based CRPG because a bunch of vets are lurking at the metaphorical water coolers deflecting responsibility for absurdly sloppy product deliveries twenty years ago by blaming market trends. I mean, I love ToEE, but to call that game flawed is somewhere between "understatement" and "undeserved praise." It's buggy, it's unpolished, the pacing is shit, and the story is a question mark. It was never going to be anything but a cult classic - strictly for people who were willing to hold their nose and soldier past all the shit. And that's basically all of Troika's games in a nutshell. But the lesson the industry learned when Troika collapsed was "don't be different, ever, just keep publishing Baldur's Gate." And because the industry in question is a couple dudes and their gaming buddies (okay, that's a touch of hyperbole, but it's certainly fucking small) both on the TTRPG and CRPG side, that lesson will stick forever, wrong or right.

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:37 am

Which is a shame, because ToEE was in a direction I absolutely adored (and with Circle of Eight's fixes it's less of a buggy mess. It still is one, but less) and am utterly disgusted with these Infinity clones, especially ones like goddamned Pillars of Eternity where they got rid of prebuffing entirely and made boring combat-only options like it's a fucking 4E game. And I absolutely hated DOS2 because of the fucking stupid armor mechanic.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:22 am

DSMatticus wrote:I think the secret is that Larian Studios is Belgian, and as such they have no connections to the Silicon Valley CRPG/TTRPG clique, so there's no one around to give them the "common sense advice" that they need to publish Baldur's Gate clones or else they'll wind up the next Troika.

Kingmaker is made in Russia by Russians though. Plus Chris Avellone writing some stuff.

The official answer to "why did you do real-time with pause?" is:
1. "We wanted to show off our animations"
2. "We wanted it to be fast paced"

And 2 is absolutely valid. Combat in PoE 2 and Kingmaker is lightning-fast compared to D:OS2. I'm actually inclined to say that a turn-based Kingmaker would be an unbearable slog because of all the random encounters and stuff.

Not to mention different people have different opinions on game design. Like if you go to Something Awful, they hold up Pillars of Eternity 2 as the holy grail of RPG innovation there. Though that's also the brainlets for whom "talk to every named NPC in your throne room" is a difficult concept, so I'm not sure I trust their opinions.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:11 pm

Longes wrote:Like if you go to Something Awful,

The hint is in the name of the place there.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:12 pm

I don't have as low an opinion on goons as the Den does in general but I do consider them rather compromised re: POE. For various reasons they seem to feel a sense of affiliation with that title, likely since Sawyer's always been super friendly with them and has espoused a fair amount of goon orthodoxy.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:41 pm

I think the point is that if you want to play a fast paced twitch action game, there are like 5000 of those, and in genres that lend themselves well to that, but "tactical CRPG" lends itself so poorly to fast paced twitch action that the literally had to implement a pause feature and a series of auto pause options to make it playable at all.

Which seems to indicate that perhaps it should have not been shooting for being every other kind of game but worse, and could have carved out a niche where it was good.

dirkformica · Post by **dirkformica** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:26 pm

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ce ... the-fallen

"Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen is a fantasy computer role-playing game with turn-based combat and a party system that allows you to control up to six characters at any one time.

A complex turn-based combat system featuring hundreds of spells, feats and actions, based on the rules described in the (3.5e) Revised System Reference Document (SRD) covered by the Open Game License v1.0a (OGL) by Wizards of the Coast, Inc."

edit: Early alpha combat video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvc2NdR_1O0

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:46 pm

Longes wrote:Kingmaker is made in Russia by Russians though.

Dude, it's a goddamn Pathfinder game. It's right there in the name. A team in Paizo's not-quite-Seattle Washington headquarters sat down and read Owlcat's project proposal and then decided whether they were going to proceed or dump it in the trash or whatever. You don't show up to a blind date with a wedding ring - Paizo knew what kind of game they were agreeing to let be made before they agreed to let it be made, because of course they did. It's silly to act like Paizo were a non-factor in a Paizo-licensed product.

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:53 am

Making another attempt at Final Fantasy Tactics. I'm doing a lot better than my previous attempts, but I have learned that even if I'm supremely prepared, the game will in fact hand my ass to me with enemies 3-5 levels lower than me if I rush in like a dumbass.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:46 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Making another attempt at Final Fantasy Tactics. I'm doing a lot better than my previous attempts, but I have learned that even if I'm supremely prepared, the game will in fact hand my ass to me with enemies 3-5 levels lower than me if I rush in like a dumbass.

What chapter are you on? I could give you some tips.

Count Arioch the 28th · Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:08 am

Just kicked the leaving shit out of Qecklain/Cuchulainn. It was kind of sad, random encounters put up more of a fight.

All my non-casters have move +2 and all my casters have teleport. Is move +3 worth grinding out a bard? I was thinking of making Cid a bard for shits and giggles but I don't know if it's worth it grinding out so many spellcasting levels for all my non-casters.

I am a bit overleveled, was trying to avoid that but the difference in gear that human opponents possess hasn't been an issue so far, also I recently trained a monk with steal and attack+ so if I really wanted to I could grab anything I don't currently have.

I've got rough builds in mind for all the special characters for the most part (the blunder twins can get bent though), but I can't decide what Meliadoul is good for though. Any advice (other than "don't use her"?)

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:55 pm

Meliadoul isn't that great if you're overleveled since her skillset is great against humans but nothing special against those asshole chocobos who keep showing up in random battles to try and murder you via meteor.

Personally, I never really understood the fascination with grinding at all in FFT, but then again I won the birthday lottery and never bothered to replay as anything but a Pisces.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:43 pm

Teleport sucks, don't use it on anyone. With the fail chance factored in it's less effective than any Move+X. You're seriously better off with Move+1 if you don't want to get your casters enough Thief JP for Move+2.

Meliadoul is in a rough spot because her unique Job is less useful than Agrias' and you got Agrias ages ago. If you insist on using Mel, you are probably best off treating her like a generic and avoiding the whole "Divine Knight kind of sucks" issue. There's really no good reason why you wouldn't equip Mighty Sword as a secondary action set with her as a different class, or ignore Mighty Sword completely.

Really all you want Mel for is as a fighty-frontline type who can also equip Perfumes, which are crazy stupid OP. (In this role, Agrias is still strictly better.) If you don't have any Perfumes to equip her with, then she's not good for much.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:31 pm

Mord wrote:Teleport sucks, don't use it on anyone. With the fail chance factored in it's less effective than any Move+X. You're seriously better off with Move+1 if you don't want to get your casters enough Thief JP for Move+2.

Claiming Move +1 is better than Teleport is outright insanity. Teleport is 100% reliable within your normal movement range and ignores intervening rough terrain, enemies and elevation changes and in the event none of those things apply AND you really need that extra tile for some reason you still have a 90% chance of getting it.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:51 pm

Shrug. The things you said are true, and I acknowledge that my statement that you shouldn't use Teleport on anyone is hyperbole. However I do think Releport is a poor choice for a mainstay movement power, because I place less value on most of its advantages than the guarantee of an extra tile, unless I know that I'm going into a fight on a map where the mobility will make a real difference.

Casters aren't as affected by height differences or other obstacles as fighters, because they are naturally ranged and usually AOE. The number of maps where being able to teleport up and down a cliff will make a difference is nonzero, but the frequency you fight on them depends how you play the game.

I would take a 100% chance of the 5th tile over a 90% chance of the 5th tile in the general case and in most specific cases purely for the reliability. I would still rate Teleport more highly than any Jump+X or many others, but really Move+3 is king.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:51 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
All my non-casters have move +2 and all my casters have teleport. Is move +3 worth grinding out a bard? I was thinking of making Cid a bard for shits and giggles but I don't know if it's worth it grinding out so many spellcasting levels for all my non-casters.

Not really.

I am a bit overleveled, was trying to avoid that but the difference in gear that human opponents possess hasn't been an issue so far, also I recently trained a monk with steal and attack+ so if I really wanted to I could grab anything I don't currently have.
I've got rough builds in mind for all the special characters for the most part (the blunder twins can get bent though), but I can't decide what Meliadoul is good for though. Any advice (other than "don't use her"?)

Important question are you playing the 'War of the Lions' version?
If not, she is very poor and is pretty much overshadowed by Cid, a more powerful replacement. Agrias who Cid also replaces but has a better unique job. Her ability does nothing to non-humans.

If so then she abilities still work on non-humans. Get her a perfume, and pretty much any female-only equipment since most are pretty powerful.
Give her monk abilities, since the move set is pretty good.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:18 am

See, I remember the chocobos being hard last time I played, but this time they aren't an issue. Granted, I'm only level 24 and just cleared Goland Coal City, but chocobos at this level seem vulnerable to a few things (teleporting wizards using magic katanas, fast-talking demon summoners, getting shot repeatedly in the fucking face...) I might take 1 meteor before I'm on them in a cloud of blood and horsechicken feathers.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:29 pm

The map that gives me the most Chocopocalypse PTSD flashbacks is Finath River. You get too many Reds on that one and it's game over man. Random battles on that map are also very Chocobo-heavy, but 100% avoidable once you close the loop between Bethla Garrison and Limberry Castle.

Pariah Dog · Post by **Pariah Dog** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:29 pm

To loop the conversation back a bit. Titan Quest Anniversary edition just went on sale on GOG for $4 if you're looking to try it. It's Viking Xpac is $10 (never played it, THQNordic released it after re-releasing TQ)

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:48 pm

GOG shouldnt really be receiving revenue after CD Projekt approve three transphobic official tweets with no rolling heads.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:04 am

You know, I thought Raffa had stupid AI in the mission where you had to protect her. After meeting Reis, I realize it could get so much worse, at least Raffa didn't drag everything literally as far away as possible from us... might need to break out the time magic, and maybe my chemists with move +2 and germinas boots (this is definitely a battle where +jump is a huge help...)

Iduno · Post by **Iduno** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:59 pm

Omegonthesane wrote:GOG shouldnt really be receiving revenue after CD Projekt approve three transphobic official tweets with no rolling heads.

Great. I thought there'd be one reasonable replacement for Steam.

Hadanelith · Post by **Hadanelith** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:22 pm

Okay, what? GOG is not CDPR. GOG is not CDPR's only outlet (since you can get the Witcher games on Steam). GOG is also a pretty sizable storefront for a lot of devs these days. If you have a problem with CDPR (which is fair), take it out on them. But taking GOG to task for CDPR's misdeeds is a really weird choice of action.

Iduno · Post by **Iduno** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:35 pm

Hadanelith wrote:Okay, what? GOG is not CDPR. GOG is not CDPR's only outlet (since you can get the Witcher games on Steam). GOG is also a pretty sizable storefront for a lot of devs these days. If you have a problem with CDPR (which is fair), take it out on them. But taking GOG to task for CDPR's misdeeds is a really weird choice of action.

It isn't their only outlet, but it is their company. That's like saying it's okay to dislike Ubisoft, but not Uplay.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:31 pm

That's like saying it's okay to dislike Valve, but not Steam.