V5's Failure isn't surprising

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Omegonthesane
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Post by Omegonthesane »

Later books add more text wanking to how impractical diablerie is, how it apparently becomes addictive and how you get fucked if you eat someone too powerful bcos they possess you instead of you getting to have their powers with your original mind.

Don't know if they apply it to the Tremere ritual that lets you split the bounty between the party.

Spoilered for rambling and possibly veering off topic
I was in a V20 campaign that was good for many reasons none of which were contributed by either the setting or the mechanics. The GM felt the need to houserule to counter my fanciful plans of, as Frank has described before, staking an elder and feeding it human sacrifices that I would then diablerise in order to allow myself and my entire party to get to "1 generation below that elder" bcos he was too committed to the existing flavour text about serial diablerists having to go on an elder hunt.

Which was dumb, not least because we ended up committing only one diablerie between the entire party, and that one was so the more ambitious Malkavian could learn Thaumaturgy without asking nicely and then research the Path of Corruption from first principles.
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Post by Username17 »

Everything about the way generation and diablerie worked was indefensible. No part of it worked the way it was supposed to. And the fact that honestly there wasn't a presented reason why fucking anyone would be worse than about 6th generation. The entire issue where elder blood was used to make people with awesome generation, and it was generation that determined how much people got from eating a victim meant that elder blood of any kind was just obviously something you could use to ratchet yourself up in power by feeding it to mundanes that you intended to eat. It just obviously did that.

This problem was so big and so obvious that everyone either just did things that way or agreed to a détente where everyone pretended that it didn't work that way. Masquerade's generation rules were totally incompatible with the way the setting was supposed to work and totally incompatible with how any setting should work. They were just badly thought out.

Anyway, one of the few things that nWoD actually did right was switching from Generations that counted down to Blood Potency that counted up and then just started all new vampires at Potency 1. It was much cleaner. And no one objected, even though people complained about almost everything else in nWoD because Requiem was a tire fire.

But it's also important to note that the failure of the rules of generation and diablerie wasn't simply that the numbers were bad. The numbers and game mechanics were bad of course, but the rules were narratively bad.

edit: double negatives, how do they work?

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Post by jt »

Maintaining the masquerade is a nice repeatable structure. Under that version, being an immortal monster with supernatural powers is a pretty sweet deal, and the only thing that could stop the party is if the mortals found out, so everyone's number one responsibility is maintaining the conspiracy. Not getting caught yourself is easy, but if someone else is breaking the rules you need to investigate, deal with them, and bury the evidence before the mortals figure it out.

The masquerade is frequently under threat. Some people are careless, insane, or power-hungry enough to break it. New monsters often don't know what they are or what they're doing, and need to be brought into the fold. Elder monsters spend long times dormant and come back with bad attitudes and outdated methods of hiding themselves. There are supernatural forces out there that are weird one-off problems, or aren't "people" enough that you can get them to join in on the masquerade. Optionally (because it's a bit edgy), there are occasionally religious people with enough true faith to perform miracles, and you really don't want to let them live long enough for the mortals to find out miracles are real.

Your party is a group that works together to maintain the masquerade. They might be a mixed group like two vampires, a werewolf, and a witch, because maintaining the masquerade is everyone's problem. An adventure consists of investigating a paranormal incident, either stopping it or getting the responsible party to clean up their act, and covering up the evidence. When your characters are not on an adventure, they're all off partying.
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Post by Username17 »

jt wrote:Your party is a group that works together to maintain the masquerade. They might be a mixed group like two vampires, a werewolf, and a witch, because maintaining the masquerade is everyone's problem.
That's certainly a way to do it. A larger point is that you have to decide how many non-Vampire options you are actually using.

You have various archetypes that you want filled. There are conceptual and mechanical roles that players might be inspired by. And some of these archetypes will be best filled by a vampire and some of them will be filled adequately by a vampire. If you have only vampires, you're going to want to have all the important roles that vampires can adequately fill be filled with vampires. If you have vampires along with a host of other non-vampire supernaturals, then you only want the vampires to fill the archetypes they do best.

So if you have werewolves, you don't need Gangrel. If you have witches, you don't need Tremere. But even if you have werewolves and witches, you're still going to want Ventrue and Nosferatu, because your hideous skulking vampire and your aristocratic mesmerizing vampire wouldn't be archetypes better filled by a werewolf or a witch.

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Post by jt »

Indeed. And personally I'd much rather play a werewolf than a Gangrel; I don't even particularly like werewolves but I'd rather have the real thing rather than a vampire bent into that shape. On the other hand, I don't think it matters that Nosferatu is edging in on the Swamp Thing's territory, because I don't think anyone cares about the Swamp Thing. So it's a question of which monsters have enough cultural cachet to include, and which ones are so irrelevant that you'd be better served with an offshoot of a more popular monster

Vampires and werewolves were the big two even before Twilight, and half the women I dated in college fancied themselves a witch, so I think those are the top three. Ghosts are also popular, but whether they're acceptable as player characters is more of a toss up (personally I like them). After that we're getting into the weeds of individual taste - I'd add Frankenstein's Monster (and maybe Frankenstein himself) and stop there, but that's just me.

(And I think it's a strength of the masquerade structure that it works whether you bring in all the universal monsters or use vampire clans for everything.)
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Post by Username17 »

jt wrote:On the other hand, I don't think it matters that Nosferatu is edging in on the Swamp Thing's territory, because I don't think anyone cares about the Swamp Thing. So it's a question of which monsters have enough cultural cachet to include, and which ones are so irrelevant that you'd be better served with an offshoot of a more popular monster
Cultural cache isn't precisely right. We're talking about what monsters present a playable archetype that would inspire players to actually play them. Obviously Godzilla and House Hauntings are monsters with cultural cache, but they aren't remotely playable in a game where you're expected to go to Budapest and have secret dustups in the subway tunnels like in the first Underworld movie.

So let's talk about Weresharks. The Wereshark opens zero space that couldn't be filled adequately and well by a Werewolf. I can name movies - good movies even - where the fact that a Werewolf can go into the water was a legitimate plot point. Whatever mechanical differences and access to special magics you declare for Weresharks you could just as easily have declared for some flavor of Werewolves. "Moonsilver Werewolves exist in the setting and have Water Magic" is a declaration you could make with just as much ease as the declaration "Weresharks exist in the setting and have Water Magic."

The benefit for including Weresharks is simply that there is a minority (but non-zero!) of people who would like to play a Werewolf but would simply rather be a Shark. Maybe they just think sharks are cool. Maybe they watch a lot of Shark Week. Maybe they found out that Donald Trump really hates and fears sharks. Whatever. There are a number of people who would like to play a character with the Werewolf power set, but would simply rather be a fucking shark.

The drawback of course is that putting Weresharks into your game means that your setting has Fucking Weresharks in it. That makes it that much harder to describe the setting to someone and adds that many more moving parts to discuss the effects of actions or changes on the setting.

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Post by Zaranthan »

FrankTrollman wrote:The benefit for including Weresharks is simply that there is a minority (but non-zero!) of people who would like to play a Werewolf but would simply rather be a Shark.

...

The drawback of course is that putting Weresharks into your game means that your setting has Fucking Weresharks in it. That makes it that much harder to describe the setting to someone and adds that many more moving parts to discuss the effects of actions or changes on the setting.
I think for something that niche, you're better served with a sidebar for making Steve characters than trying to turn your specific Masquerade setting into Kitchen Sink Modern Fantasy.
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Post by SeekritLurker »

I had another thought about making the power structure of vampires more accessible to player characters - in addition to making sure that the Prince isn't an unapproachable godlilke 6th generation Lasombra successfully pretending to be a Ventrue.

Once you have ensured that the prince actually rules by administrating and making deals rather than sheer personal supernatural power, you back it up by making the Prince answer to the Primogen (instead of answering only to the seven super-secret vampire cops who only occasionally wander by.) By making the Prince subject to a vote of no confidence, with penalties ranging from exile to an enforced time-out (with a stake) to getting goddamn sun-murdered, you give the players stakes that can be played to locally.

This is, of course, not a replacement for the Justicars, but in addition. Because you want to be able to depose the president of the anime club without calling in the FBI, but you still want the FBI to exist.

A similar set-up within each of the clans represented on the council, where each clan has a method of selecting and challenging the Primogen, should be a part of it. Because you want to have the thing where the Tremere character does quests for enough chantry members to get their votes to back a challenge, and then there's a formal wizard duel. Nosferatu challengers don't call a clan meeting; they show up to the Primogen and show that they have learned a secret about the Primogen that would be devastating, and the Primogen resigns in favor of the new challenger.

Becoming Prince or Primogen should be attainable, if that's what the players want. Not spots that are filled with characters who are eternally Better Than You.
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Post by Ignimortis »

SeekritLurker wrote:I had another thought about making the power structure of vampires more accessible to player characters - in addition to making sure that the Prince isn't an unapproachable godlilke 6th generation Lasombra successfully pretending to be a Ventrue.

Once you have ensured that the prince actually rules by administrating and making deals rather than sheer personal supernatural power, you back it up by making the Prince answer to the Primogen (instead of answering only to the seven super-secret vampire cops who only occasionally wander by.) By making the Prince subject to a vote of no confidence, with penalties ranging from exile to an enforced time-out (with a stake) to getting goddamn sun-murdered, you give the players stakes that can be played to locally.

This is, of course, not a replacement for the Justicars, but in addition. Because you want to be able to depose the president of the anime club without calling in the FBI, but you still want the FBI to exist.

A similar set-up within each of the clans represented on the council, where each clan has a method of selecting and challenging the Primogen, should be a part of it. Because you want to have the thing where the Tremere character does quests for enough chantry members to get their votes to back a challenge, and then there's a formal wizard duel. Nosferatu challengers don't call a clan meeting; they show up to the Primogen and show that they have learned a secret about the Primogen that would be devastating, and the Primogen resigns in favor of the new challenger.

Becoming Prince or Primogen should be attainable, if that's what the players want. Not spots that are filled with characters who are eternally Better Than You.
That's how our Masquerade game worked. The prince got impeached eventually because of alliances between primogens, and a different vampire took his place. Neither the first prince nor the second one would be invulnerable to a direct assault of two combat specialist 8-10th gen vampires, and in fact would probably lose because of them both being not exactly crazy about combat, though possessing some combat-worthy powers. The hard part would be setting this assault up, which was the point Sabbat roaming packs occasionally tried and fucked up.

One PC in particular was probably more powerful in combat than either prince, but was content to do jobs from them before leaving to become an Archon.
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Post by Username17 »

Zaranthan wrote: I think for something that niche, you're better served with a sidebar for making Steve characters than trying to turn your specific Masquerade setting into Kitchen Sink Modern Fantasy.
It's actually not very far down the rabbit hole before you get to Weresharks. It sounds pretty out-there, which is why I brought it up, but it's not a lot of steps to get there. Imagine for the moment that you decide that people who play Lycanthropes can play other major predators. That's not a big leap, and Sharks are factually about the fourth major predator people name. If you decided to do a nWoD style five by five matrix with different predator types, Weresharks would almost certainly get the nod.

So obviously you have more people going in for Werewolves than Werebears and more Werebears than Weresharks. But it's not like we're talking about Werebadgers or Werehawks or whatever. We get to Weresharks before we even finish the fingers on one hand. Or at least, we do if Lycanthropes get their own hand. Obviously, if Weresharks are having to fight for space against Witches and Vampires and Frankenstein's Monster and shit, the list has to be really long before they even get considered. But if you start making a separate list for predatory monsters that spread via lycanthropy, Weresharks are on the short list.

If you approach it as an unordered list, you probably don't get to Weresharks at all before you lose track of what you're doing. If you approach it as a structured nested list, then Lycans are your second group (after Vampires, obviously) and Weresharks are the fourth entry in that group. Once you create a framework for these things, it's very difficult to put a cutoff before you get to Weresharks.

Now even within the context of a pretty structured system of supernatural creatures, the choices in one area still affect what choices make sense in another. Let's consider animal associations for Vampires rather than Lycanthropes. So if you only get one, you get Bats. Because like, fucking obviously. And if you had additional animal themes those would probably be ordered: Serpent, Spider, Lamprey, Wolf. But that last one is very interesting: Wolf Vampires would be like the fifth most popular Vampire but they are the first most popular Lycanthrope. And your Wolf Vampires ("Gangrel" if you will) don't add anything in terms of player concepting that Werewolves don't. So if you have Lycanthropes in your setting, your fifth kind of Vampire isn't going to have a Wolf theme, it's going to scrape a little deeper and have a mosquito theme or bee theme or something.

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Post by Kaelik »

FrankTrollman wrote:Now even within the context of a pretty structured system of supernatural creatures, the choices in one area still affect what choices make sense in another. Let's consider animal associations for Vampires rather than Lycanthropes. So if you only get one, you get Bats. Because like, fucking obviously. And if you had additional animal themes those would probably be ordered: Serpent, Spider, Lamprey, Wolf. But that last one is very interesting: Wolf Vampires would be like the fifth most popular Vampire but they are the first most popular Lycanthrope. And your Wolf Vampires ("Gangrel" if you will) don't add anything in terms of player concepting that Werewolves don't. So if you have Lycanthropes in your setting, your fifth kind of Vampire isn't going to have a Wolf theme, it's going to scrape a little deeper and have a mosquito theme or bee theme or something.

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Isn't rat higher on the list than uh.... surely wolf, although possibly Lamprey and Spider, depending on where you are in the world.
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Post by Omegonthesane »

Kaelik wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Now even within the context of a pretty structured system of supernatural creatures, the choices in one area still affect what choices make sense in another. Let's consider animal associations for Vampires rather than Lycanthropes. So if you only get one, you get Bats. Because like, fucking obviously. And if you had additional animal themes those would probably be ordered: Serpent, Spider, Lamprey, Wolf. But that last one is very interesting: Wolf Vampires would be like the fifth most popular Vampire but they are the first most popular Lycanthrope. And your Wolf Vampires ("Gangrel" if you will) don't add anything in terms of player concepting that Werewolves don't. So if you have Lycanthropes in your setting, your fifth kind of Vampire isn't going to have a Wolf theme, it's going to scrape a little deeper and have a mosquito theme or bee theme or something.

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Isn't rat higher on the list than uh.... surely wolf, although possibly Lamprey and Spider, depending on where you are in the world.
I'm not aware of any rats that saaahk your blaaahd as a key part of their diet, and they only tie into Dracula in his role as plague metaphor.

...except that post hoc explanation doesn't explain why mosquitos are below wolves on the list. Maybe Duckula more famously turned into a wolf?
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Post by Username17 »

Kaelik wrote:
Isn't rat higher on the list than uh.... surely wolf, although possibly Lamprey and Spider, depending on where you are in the world.
Dracula's two animal forms are Bat and Wolf. The Vampires in Lost Boys have hell hounds to guard their suburban house during the day. It's a really common connection actually.

But yes, Vampires aren't normally primarily Wolf themed. Their wolf themes are usually secondary things. But if you didn't have Werewolve, the "Vampire with a Wolf Companion" or "Vampire with a Wolf-form" would be a clearly redundant character.

Meanwhile, while rats often appear in Vampire films, it's normally just to show that things are run down and decaying. The only vampire with a specific rat-association I can think of is when Sex Machine turns in Dusk Till Dawn and then his body explodes into a rat monster second life mini-boss fight "for no reason." But even then, most of the Dusk Till Dawn vampires are snake themed.

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Post by jt »

FrankTrollman wrote:If you approach it as an unordered list, you probably don't get to Weresharks at all before you lose track of what you're doing. If you approach it as a structured nested list, then Lycans are your second group (after Vampires, obviously) and Weresharks are the fourth entry in that group. Once you create a framework for these things, it's very difficult to put a cutoff before you get to Weresharks.
I always thought WoD's obsession with structuring things as nested lists was kind of silly, and this is a nice concise explanation of why. It's a good brainstorming tool - maybe you're down to group five and expect to be scraping the barrel only to find that you could build a whole setting on Frankenstein's monster variants - but once you've done your brainstorming exercise you should really sort everything by some mix of how cool it is and how useful it is to the game, then start crossing things off the list that are made redundant by something higher up. It's okay to have more variants on vampires than mummies.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

So basically, you're confirming there's no such game as "Wereshark: the Buffet"?
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Some time back vampire/werewolves hybrids seemed to be a big thing, if you squint you can sorta stick Gangrel in there.

Though, what number of monsters is desirable? I can sorta imagine the Masquerade working with vampires, and if in ages past vampires split into different bloodlines or have individual X-Men powers so they can be very different from each other, ok.

When there's 27 and counting totally separate types of monsters, that's pushing it a bit for me. OTOH, then you get to do the monster mash thing, but giving them all interesting powers and balancing them seems quite a task.
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Post by Username17 »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:So basically, you're confirming there's no such game as "Wereshark: the Buffet"?
Ahem. It's called Rokea.
jt wrote:I always thought WoD's obsession with structuring things as nested lists was kind of silly, and this is a nice concise explanation of why.
But there is an actual reason: Chunking. It is factually easier to remember 5 lists of five items than it is to remember one list of twenty five items. Indeed, you'll run out of attention span long before you get through a list of twenty-five. You can't even remember all the tribes in Werewolf: the Apocalypse, and there were only seventeen of those fuckers in a big unordered list. But while five lists of five is more total entries by a considerable margin - it's much easier to remember.

Now it's genuinely true that some lists are more interesting than others. I don't think it's likely to be an exaggeration that the fourth most popular Vampire type is going to be more popular than the fourth most popular non-vampire list in aggregate. As you say, there probably isn't a need for the same number of fairies or mummies as there is of vampires or lycanthropes. It might make a lot of sense to have seven vampires, 4 lycanthropes, and only three flavors of prometheans.

But you're still going to want to arrange the data into chunkable sublists for audience learning. And once you do that, you probably have Weresharks.

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Post by Dean »

While I understand the point being made I think you'd have Werewolves, Weretigers, Werebears, and Wererats as the autoincludes. The second tier are probably things like Werefoxes, Wereravens, lip service to various other big cats letting people flavor their Weretigers as Werejaguars (etc) without using additional rules, lip service to other canines letting people flavor their Werewolves as Werecoyotes, and THEN I think you're in low tier shit like Wereboars and Weresharks that have some non-zero fanbase but not nearly as many that just want different flavors of the big ones.

While we're talking shit like Weresharks I'll argue there is a value for Gangrel in that there are definitely going to be more people who want a combat monster vampire than that want an 8th tier Lycanthrope. I agree that the difference at the table between a bestial combat focused vampire and a werewolf is pretty fucking thin but as long as we're talking about appealing to "Non-zero" amounts of players you will DEFINITELY have people who will care a whole lot about getting to play a combat monster who's specifically a vampire and not anything else. That group's going to come way before your Wereshark group in terms of people you'll want to appeal to if playing the numbers game.
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Post by Username17 »

Kitsune, Nezumi, Buffalo Woman, Selkie, Anansi, Swan Mays and so on create a problem for classification systems. Obviously these creatures are shape shifters. But equally obviously they are not a 'kind of werewolf'. Most of those fuckers don't change involuntarily at all and in any case don't have warforms or moon fixations or go into rage frenzies or spread by biting. There is essentially no reason to call any of these creatures a 'Were-' at all.

So we have monsters that turn into bats. But those monsters are Vampires. The only reason to have Werebats is to troll the players by presenting a monster that is clearly a vampire but has a different set of weaknesses.

Certainly a possibility is to have a separate set of Lycanthropes and Shapeshifters. True Blood does this and it's fine.

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Post by FiveBlinkNurse »

While I disagree with some of what has been said (I, for one, think there's plenty of things to do in Vampire: the Masquerade, for example, and I think that the supposed lack of narrow direction is because the game actually does give more freedom and options for players to explore), I'd like to veer back to taking potshots at 5th Edition specifically.

Before I do that, I just want to say that I agree with Frank on the Clans needing an overhaul. I think I have different reasons for it, but I think we can both agree that at least in part, it's time for Vampire and Onyx Path or Paradox (because I think the artist formerly known as White Wolf has pretty much left the building) to distance themselves more from Mark Rein Dot Hagen and the OG writers.

While I have favorites among the old Masquerade Clans, I don't feel that sense of nostalgia for them the way that contemporary big screen superhero movies take up time-old known goofy bits of character from now-iconic superheroes and give them that revamped-but-look-it's-that-thing-you-know quality (Doctor Strange's cloak! Omg!).

I think it's time even Vampire fans like me said "it makes no sense for Brujah to be called Brujah", but more than that we should also add "…and their descriptions and origin story fucking suck".

Someone else mentioned Requiem 2nd Edition being a hundred times better in every single conceivable way and I second that opinion and one of the reasons is that the Clans and Covenants there are done much, much, much better than the Clans and Sects were in Masquerade.

I second Frank's opinion that there is no conceivable reason to keep the old Masquerade Clans or try to revive them with a new spin.

I always thought the names and etymology of the Clans were dumb, but when Frank revealed to us that the Toreador got their name from basically a cartoon, that pretty much said it all.
It wasn't even some kind of a deep reference or anything that makes sense for the Clan, just the shallowest kind of "y'know, there was some toreador and roses flying around so here we are".

The etymology doesn't even make sense in-universe.

Looking at the Clans today they also look extremely cartoonish – Brujah are all leather-clad revolutionaries who go crazy and break shit, Ventrue are all evil corporate suits, blah, blah, blah.
Even when Revised Edition came along, watched the Sopranos and got a hard on for upping the quality and maturing everything and dissolving stereotypes – it's not enough nowadays.
Brujah as a thing just have to go – or to be more precise, the next reincarnation of Vampire (if there will be one) should not attempt to revive them and come up with something new and fresh.

But I digress, because I said I wanted to take some potshots at V5…

Character Creation is Made of Handcuffs

Previous editions of Vampire (both Masquerade and Requiem) had varying degrees of freedom.
You were given a character sheet, some descriptions of traits and options, then given a bunch of points to spend and told to go nuts, minding only your concept and a sweaty Storyteller fearful of having to review some min-maxed bullshit.

V5 comes along and says "fuck you!" (to no one in particular), "you can't be trusted with this shit so we'll make your character for you!"

And then the book fucking does and everybody's fine with it.

You are instructed to divide your Attributes by a specific formula. You must put 4 in one Attribute and 1 in another, then you must put 3 in three Attributes and 2 in all the ones that are left.

You'll notice that those are the lowest numbers we've gotten so far – in previous Masquerade editions, all Attributes started at 1 dot and you had to assign three groups of Attributes (Physical, Social and Mental) into three priority categories (Primary, Secondary and Tertiary).
You had 7 points to spend in your Primary, 5 in Secondary and 3 Tertiary. You chose how to put them.
Mental was Primary? Maybe one character will have Perception 4, Intelligence 3 and Wits 3, another character goes with Perception 2, Intelligence 4 and Wits 4 and a third character might have Perception 5, Intelligence 2 and Wits 3 or so on and so forth.

Now you have a specific arrangement that everyone must use.

Same for Skills. Here they at least pretend to give you several different allocation schemes.
You can use the default allocation, which basically goes like this:

Professional Skills
3/3/2/2
Life Skills
3/2
Leisure Skills
1/1/1
Extra Skills
4 or 2/2/1/1/1/1

Or you can use one of three exciting alternatives:

Jack of All Trades
3
2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2
1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1

Balanced
3/3/3
2/2/2/2/2
1/1/1/1/1/1/1

Specialist
4
3/3/3
2/2/2
1/1/1

Balanced and Specialist are both just the default allocation without dividing skills into "professional skills" vs "life skills".

The division of "now you pick your professional skills" and "these are your like skills" isn't a real thing – meaning, it's not like Shadowrun skills where theree's a difference between picking dots in a skill for operating missile launchers versus some lore skill for orkish rock music.

The game doesn't actually care if you put a dot in Athletics as a "professional skill" or just an "extra skill", they're not actual categories, they're just there to help players come up with a bullshit story for their dots (which they will probably instantly then forget and it will never come up again) and for the robots in the Examples to help pretend that they're supposed to be actual humans by saying things like "Brad tells Jeannette that his character Lisa, who is a criminal defense attorney, jogs regularly and cares for her fitness and therefore has placed two dots in the Athletics skill on his sheet as one of Lisa's Life Skills!".

Don't forget the exclamation mark and some overly proud smile when you recite this in an actual table – that'd really convince the meatbags that you're one of them!
You. Are. Enjoying. This. … This. Is. Pl-ea-soooore.
Smile!

And this is your skill allocation – you have the same allocation as everyone else around the table and the entire globe.
Your only freedom and differentiation from everyone else is just which skills you put a 3 in and which ones you put a 1 in and which ones you left blank.

To some extent, most RPGs gives everyone the same number of dots to work with, but V5 is telling you exactly what ratings you will put and pretty much where.

Everyone has three 3's, five 2's and seven 1's by default and even the only alternative still keeps everyone at the same total cost (one 4 equals the 2/2/1/1/1/1 spread in terms of XP cost).

This is great for balance and keeping everyone at mostly the same level, but I found it extremely limiting and hand-holdy.

Predator Types

My fucking god, what is this bullshit?

I like the idea! I like the Hunger mechanics at least in concept!
I do like the idea of playing through feeding and hunting sometimes – what I don't like is how V5 again pulls up the handcuffs.
Not the kinky ones, either.

You must (unless you're a Thin-Blood, in which case, get fucked I guess) select one of these Predator Types.

There's 10 of them in total and they are the only ones in the game.

"10 sounds like a bunch, though" you might think.

Nope, they're all extreme bullshit.
All of the Predator Types determine exactly how you feed whenever you want to hunt. It conveys a very specific modus operandi with very little wiggle room and variation in each one, to the point of no variation at all and just take what the text dictates.

Examples include: would you like to be a vampire who only feeds during sex or a vampire who only feeds by pouncing strangers in dark alleys and beating the shit out of them?

Each one comes with a small package of extra skill specialties and Advantages, usually with a single "either this or that" choice for each one.
Sometimes there's no choice, which can limit you even further.

Want to make an ironic Nosferatu Siren? Fuck you, not possible. A Siren must gain the Looks: Beautiful Merit at 2 dots and Nosferatu can't have that Merit so fuck off you and your concepts.

Ventrue can't be Farmers (for whatever reason their prey restriction must remain mortal humans and can't apply to animals – so no Ventrue who must only feed from Chihuahuas or a particular breed of pig).

So basically, in this edition of Vampire all vampires have built-in feeding restrictions and despite the book squeaking something along the lines of "sometimes they can just drink whatever is handy, this is just how they prefer to hunt", half of the Predator Types are extremely limiting and even completely excluding of everything save for a very particular blood source (Blood Leech are basically diablerists who can only feed from vampires, for example), on pain of automatically frenzying if attempting to drink anything else.

In the LA by Night internet actual play show on Geek & Sundry (featuring White Wolf's actual Jason Carl as Storyteller*) there were several scenes where this mechanic reared its limiting head and one of the characters basically went around trying to convince people to go to sleep in the middle of a nightclub because he's a Sandman and can only feed from sleeping people (he's also a huge FishMalk).

*Note: I kinda like Jason Carl, despite being a big goofball. Please don't tell me he's some kind of secret nutjob like a certain Dotslinger who shall not be named…
Guts
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Post by Guts »

FrankTrollman wrote:Kitsune, Nezumi, Buffalo Woman, Selkie, Anansi, Swan Mays
Such a group would be perfectly at home in City of Mist. Just saying.
FiveBlinkNurse
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Post by FiveBlinkNurse »

PS

I'd also like to mention that:

Average WoD book: This is a game about MATURE storytelling! Dark drama! Intense, personal journey on paths of damnation and struggling with one's dwindling humanity in intense, personal ways! This could be a movie directed by Bergman! in Black and White!

Average WoD gaming group: Ok, so a wereshark, a Ventrue swordsman, a double sai mage, an uzi-wielding werewolf ninja and a fucking fairy kick the door to a crime factory where they make crime...
FiveBlinkNurse
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Post by FiveBlinkNurse »

I also forgot the middle-aged housewives cybering with each other in chat-based website games...
Guts
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Post by Guts »

FiveBlinkNurse wrote:PS

I'd also like to mention that:

Average WoD book: This is a game about MATURE storytelling! Dark drama! Intense, personal journey on paths of damnation and struggling with one's dwindling humanity in intense, personal ways! This could be a movie directed by Bergman! in Black and White!

Average WoD gaming group: Ok, so a wereshark, a Ventrue swordsman, a double sai mage, an uzi-wielding werewolf ninja and a fucking fairy kick the door to a crime factory where they make crime...
Haha spot on! :mrgreen:
FiveBlinkNurse
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Post by FiveBlinkNurse »

Discipline Chop Shop

Another change I'm lukewarm about is the Disciplines.
On the face of it, V5 has an interesting new change: instead of a linear incremental line from one set power at level 1 to another set power at level 5, which every vampire who develops the Discipline will gain exactly like the next vampire, Disciplines now offer multiple different powers placed at the same level.

When you gain a level of a Discipline, you choose which power to learn. Thus, the book smugly surmises, every vampire is truly unique! (here comes that exclamation mark again! Ready for the robot uprising!?)

This probably sounds cool! (oh fuck, I'm doing it too, here comes the vapid smile…)

...Aaaaand then they fucked it up.

Instead of offering more (like what Requiem 2nd Edition Disciplines now do), V5 opts to offer less.

How'd they manage such a feat? By taking a hacksaw to the previous Disciplines, dumbing them down to the level bordering a board game and hacking them up into two parts.

Once upon a time, the very first dot of Auspex gave you the ability to heighten your senses and opened up the possibility of psychic effects (flashes of premonition and the ability to perceive unseen things like the Obfuscated Nosferatu or ghosts or various mystical things under the surface).

V5 Auspex effectively grabs both your hands and asks you which one you'd like to keep, as in V5 at the first dot you can have either Heightened Senses (which only heightens your natural perception) or Sense the Unseen (which only gives you the ability to try to counter effects like Obfuscate and maybe see some Blood Sorcery at work) – but not both.

The same goes for Dominate, once the bastion of both Kilgraving your path in the world as well as hypno-rewrite memories – now it's either or.

Most V5 Disciplines offer you only two choices at each level with some levels only offering a single one still.

It's possible to attain higher levels and simply learn lower level powers later on, thus you might pick up both Compel and Cloud Memory for Dominate, for example – but that would require you to pass on another (presumably better) power at a higher level, and you can only have as many powers as you have Discipline dots (capped at 5).


So all Disciplines are now much narrower in focus than ever before. It's possible to develop your Dominate in such a way that you'll eventually pick up the ability to rewrite memories as well as mind control people with commands – but you'll have to choose whether you have more options for one of those things or the other and not all choice schemes necessarily make sense.
For example, you might be able to pick up Cloud Memory, Mesmerize and the Forgetful Mind, giving you the ability to make people instantly forget the last few moments in a quick one word gesture as well as take your time to re-write memories more thoroughly and have the ability to issue complex commands but not simple commands.

As a result, Disciplines are now more narrow in focus and more specialized rather than more flexible, which is great for balancing groups with a D&D-ish mindset (you're The Wizard, I'm The Warrior, he's The Thief, she's The Priestess, etc.) but not so great for individual vampire customization and severely hurting anyone trying to play it in one-on-one with a more personal focus.

Not all such focusing and narrowing and limiting makes sense, either.

Potence, for example, gives you Super-Strength, which you might imagine should probably give you the ability to both punch through armor (and punch mortals harder in general) and make Buffy-like leaps above tall fences and the like.
V5 Potence begs to differ and tells you to pick one or the other: either you hit like a truck (and at the first dot, only mortals specifically) or you can Steve Austin it to the fire escape in a single bound.

There are a couple of positive balance changes – fuck off Celerity being the broken god-Discipline that it was in previous editions, it is now just as sucky as any other Discipline.
As you may have realized, as well, Potence, Celerity and Fortitude are now unique power-per-level Disciplines like any other Discipline instead of just the same incremental power.
No more do you just automatically add Potence to anything Strength or just count extra actions or soak dice – you get a different power effect every level.

Too bad that power effect basically comes down to things like "do you want to be able to run very fast to smack someone on the forehead who was further away than you or do you want to be able to run up walls and over stuff?"

So just to recap, V5 Discipline design sets out to:
  • * Offer more options.
    * Provide more customization and variety between vampires with the same Discipline.
    * Streamline Disciplines.
V5 Disciplines actually managed to achieve:
  • * Cut down the usefulness of Disciplines.
    * Offering more of the same, as there's usually only two options to choose from, if that.
    * Dividing the same option into multiple options nerfs the Disciplines and what players get out of picking them.
    * Dumbed down most Disciplines into board game level.
It almost feels like whoever wrote this section in the book just fucking hated Vampire players and had it in for them…
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