I think I get it now

[Amra]

Now I think on it, the situation wasn't even as justified as I described; I believe that what the Kingpriest *actually* asked for was to get made into a God so that he could personally commit genocide. So, you know, dropping a fiery mountain on the city he happened to be standing in at the time of making the request was a perfectly reasonable response for a Lawful Good deity. Rather than, for instance, just saying "no".

Prior to that, he had issued a Proclamation of Manifest Virtue or something that made Evil thoughts punishable by enslavement (!) or death, and did his best to order the extermination of the Evil races.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that perhaps one of the Good gods might have taken him to one side and had a quiet word about over-zealousness before dropping several million tons of incandescent rock on the neighbourhood? Apart from anything else, it was years before property values recovered, despite the old adage that huge burning mountains never strike twice in the same place.

It wouldn't have been so bad if Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickmann had been deliberately making a point about the inherent daftness of the alingment system, but as far as I can tell they were more-or-less oblivious to the irony.

[Maxus]

You'd think, wouldn't you, that perhaps one of the Good gods might have taken him to one side and had a quiet word about over-zealousness before dropping several million tons of incandescent rock on the neighbourhood? Apart from anything else, it was years before property values recovered, despite the old adage that huge burning mountains never strike twice in the same place.

Seriously. Supposedly, one of the big shocks in the early series is that Fizban, the befuddled old wizard, is actually Paladine in one of his mortal guises, and that all the muttering and forgetfullness and accidentally setting fire to his hat is just an act he does partially to allay suspicion and partially because he thinks it's funny. He occasionally drops the act to shake up some mortals--like when he doesn't get all reverent to the Speaker of the Sun and tells him he never had good sense, or when he leans against that holy rock that supposedly only the divine were allowed to touch, in front of a council of war.

It was never clear to me why Paladine didn't show up, smack the Kingpriest upside the head and tell him to knock it off.

Edit: Actually, Paladine and the other gods *did* try to give warning. They just did it Old Testament-school, and we all know how well prideful rulers pay heed to supernatural events intended to be warnings from powers on high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataclysm_ ... onlance%29

[angelfromanotherpin]

The Cataclysm really is just old school biblical wrath. Fuck, how many innocent Egyptian and Jewish people suffered and died in the Plagues because Yahweh didn't bother to just change Pharoah's mind? Don't tell me he couldn't do it, because after Pharoah releases the slaves, God makes him change his mind and pursue the Jews.

The worst part is that the Cataclysm could have made a kind of sense if the Gods had some sort of arbitrary but mutually agreed-upon code about the limits of how they could interfere directly with the world. That could create a situation where sorrowful mass destruction is the only option available to the Good Gods to prevent a horrible perversion of all their teachings from dominating the world forever.

But they didn't.

[Maxus]

The worst part is that the Cataclysm could have made a kind of sense if the Gods had some sort of arbitrary but mutually agreed-upon code about the limits of how they could interfere directly with the world. That could create a situation where sorrowful mass destruction is the only option available to the Good Gods to prevent a horrible perversion of all their teachings from dominating the world forever.

But they didn't.

Yeah. If the gods had remained distant, it might make more sense.

But, instead, the most powerful (marginally) god goes around acting like he's forgotten the words for the Fireball spell, and the god of the forge, when in mortal guise, dresses himself like a pimp.

[Talisman]

The Cataclysm really is just old school biblical wrath. Fuck, how many innocent Egyptian and Jewish people suffered and died in the Plagues because Yahweh didn't bother to just change Pharoah's mind? Don't tell me he couldn't do it, because after Pharoah releases the slaves, God makes him change his mind and pursue the Jews.

It's actually worse than that.

The Pharoah considered releasing the Israelites. But Yaweh hardened the Pharoah's heart so that he would not release the Jews. Yaweh deliberately set up the situation to enable himself to cause untold suffering to countless innocents (slaughter of the firstborn, anyone?).

Regarding Dragonlance: Even assuming the Kingpriest was to batshit crazy to pay attention to an actual deity telling him to knock it off (entirely possible), I can't help but thing incinerating him personally would have been extremely effective...preferably in public, when he was making some insane proclaimation, and with nothing around him getting singed.

Kingpriest: "In Paladine's name, I hereby declare dwarves to be miserable, subhuman wretches, fit only to toil in the salt mines until they die."
[Kingpriest bursts into white flames. He burns until nothing remains but a pile of powdery ash in the shape of Paladine's holy symbol.]
[long pause]
Random Councillor: "So, about that motion to grant all dwarves full citizenship and voting rights? Uh, I vote 'yea.' "

[Absentminded_Wizard]

The Pharoah considered releasing the Israelites. But Yaweh hardened the Pharoah's heart so that he would not release the Jews. Yaweh deliberately set up the situation to enable himself to cause untold suffering to countless innocents (slaughter of the firstborn, anyone?).

The dirty little secret is that this was because the God of the Pentateuch is a different God from the God Christians visualize. At this point, he's not the god of all people, just the national god of the Israelites (and possibly a few neighboring tribes allegedly descended from the relatives of their legendary patriarch Jacob). Thus, in these texts, the lives of the Egyptians don't matter. They're just pawns in God's Ike Turner-like "I hurt you because I love you" relationship with said Israelites.

Regarding Dragonlance: Even assuming the Kingpriest was to batshit crazy to pay attention to an actual deity telling him to knock it off (entirely possible), I can't help but thing incinerating him personally would have been extremely effective...preferably in public, when he was making some insane proclaimation, and with nothing around him getting singed.

Kingpriest: "In Paladine's name, I hereby declare dwarves to be miserable, subhuman wretches, fit only to toil in the salt mines until they die."
[Kingpriest bursts into white flames. He burns until nothing remains but a pile of powdery ash in the shape of Paladine's holy symbol.]
[long pause]
Random Councillor: "So, about that motion to grant all dwarves full citizenship and voting rights? Uh, I vote 'yea.' "

Yeah, this is what happens when somebody mixes a selective vision of Old Testament wrath ('cause it's not like God never turned individuals into pillars of salt) with God's who are a lot less distant than the Old Testament's Yahweh.

...and the god of the forge, when in mortal guise, dresses himself like a pimp.

You know, I may have to read more Dragonlance just for comic images like this.

[Maxus]

...and the god of the forge, when in mortal guise, dresses himself like a pimp.

You know, I may have to read more Dragonlance just for comic images like this.

I think it was in Dragons of Summer Flame. Lost girl meets Dougan, who's an avatar of Reorx, and is dumbfounded because she'd never heard about dwarfs being leaders in fashion. It goes on to mention how he's dressed quite handsomely (with buttons on his coat as grand as the pillars of Thorbardin) and how his beard is impeccably trimmed. He may have been wearing purple.

Basically, all he needed was a broad-brimmed hat with a big feather in it. He could have borrowed Jarlaxle's.

[JonSetanta]

As to Epic rules...honestly you are better off just making rules that sound cool to you. They would be better balanced if you never looked at the epic rules.

Yeah, that's what I figured. The math for Epic spell DCs is... arcane.

Sig: When The Sky Falls, from Malhavoc Press, has rules for throwing big ol' meteorites around...it's probably the closest you'll get to dropping an actual moon on somebody.

Thanks!

[Koumei]

The best you'll get otherwise is "Iceberg" (level 9, it drops an iceberg on your enemies. All in a 20' radius of the starting point take 20d6 bludgeoning damage (no save) and are buried under snow, all from 20-40' get a Ref save for half (and to avoid being buried), and all from 40-60' take 10d6 (Ref half) and are not buried).

Or perhaps Comet Fall (each round for three rounds, you drop three comets on people, requiring touch attacks. They do less damage than I really care about at the level listed).

Nothing suitably epic, such as "everything in a 10 mile radius is flattened. Rocks fall, everybody dies."

[Talisman]

When The Sky Falls has true meteorite, a 9th-level spell. It squishes a single critter (save or die) and creates a 50'-wide, 30'-deep crater. It also deals 400 hp damage to all creatures and objects within 50', 150 hp to all within 100', 100 hp to all within 150', ad 25 hp to all within 200'.

More importantly, the book has d20 rules for a really frikkin' big meteorite impact. The "utter kill zone" is 1,000' wide; the "800 hp damage" zone extends to 1/2 mile, then 500 hp to 1 mile, 200 hp to 1 1/2 miles, and 50 hp to 2 miles. Plus assorted wildfires, shockwaves, and flying magma bombs.

Fun stuff.

[JonSetanta]

I was thinking more like "A small moon falls on you after shifting global tidal patterns for the rest of the week and slightly readjusting planetary orbit. Unless you can move miles in one round or destroy the moon, somehow, you are dead."

[Amra]

I can seriously think -off the top of my head - of about a dozen ways in which a mid-to-high-level spellcaster in D&D could survive that without even breaking a sweat.

Sorry, in 3.x D&D, I meant to say.

[Bigode]

I can seriously think -off the top of my head - of about a dozen ways in which a mid-to-high-level spellcaster in D&D could survive that without even breaking a sweat.

Sorry, in 3.x D&D, I meant to say.

There's no other.

[Meikle641]

"Basically, all he needed was a broad-brimmed hat with a big feather in it. He could have borrowed Jarlaxle's."


...Actually, he *did* have a pimp hat with a big feather. And IIRC, he had platform boots with red heels. Yes, Reorx was a goddamn pimp.

[Voss]

I think that was an early drawing of the party dwarf, Flint. Before they reverted to stereotypes, he was going to be a dandy. You know, rather than randomly die of heart attack so the conflicted party leader could *murder someone* and then have a religious epiphany.

And yeah, I know. It isn't murder if the victim self-rezzes immediately afterwards. Sure.

[Meikle641]

Nah, man. He totally has a plumed wide-brimmed hat. Tasslehoff Burfoot scares the crap out of him in Dragons of Summer Flame, making him jump- but strangely keeping his hat on during it.

Plus I think he has his hat on the cover of one of the Tales shortstory books (not that covers really matter).

[JonSetanta]

And yeah, I know. It isn't murder if the victim self-rezzes immediately afterwards. Sure.

Well one thing is for sure, it makes for more fun for the killer.
They get to do it again soon after.

[Judging__Eagle]

Nothing suitably epic, such as "everything in a 10 mile radius is flattened. Rocks fall, everybody dies."

Ah, good old internet memes. I know that my own gaming group got me as their first source for that though.