Why do they hold back the cool toys until level 25-30?

[RandomCasualty2]

What about them? An Ogre, hell, a Troll only has a Bullrush modifier of +10. You're an 8th level Shock Trooper, while enlarged, your Bullrush modifier is +20. This plan doesn't work 11% of the time. It's a lot like missing on a 1 or a 2.

That's true, but that also assumes you can get the enlarge off. If you don't' have the enlarge, it's failing 35% of the time. Which is damn significant.

If it's a potion, it's going to last a whole of 1 minute, so chances are you're not going to be able to use it unless it's during combat. In suhc a case, you actually lose the opportunity to charge, since you're too busy drinking a potion. Charge is a full action and drinking the potion is a move, and that assumes you start with it in your hand. If you go with higher level potions, you'll be driving yourself bankrupt fast.

If it's a caster using it, your main difficulty is actually convincing him to cast it for you, since he has to use one of his slots to do it. Not to mention, in such a case, it's now become a tactic only useable due to a combo from a spellcaster (Which is typical 3.5, you can't even wipe your ass without help from a caster).

So once again, this isn't really a fighter tactic at all, no more than flight or invisibility is. It's a combo ability that requires you use a caster ally as an enabler. As an argument, that's pretty meaningless. It's already well known that spellcasters, specifically wizards, have way more options in 3.5. This tactic is tapping into one of those options to make a fighter tactic viable, but it's not the fighter getting this tactic from his own abilities. Rather it's a mage doing something for him.

Without the enlarge, the tactic just doesn't work. And that's the flaw with that.

WHile it might be viable in a game, it's just doesn't prove anything about the 3.5 fighter, because enlarging is an ability of the 3.5 wizard.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Are you fucking kidding me, RC?

Potions of enlarge cost 50-250 gold pieces and lasted for up to 5 minutes, depending on how much of an asshole your DM is. Any fighter that had at least 1 round of prep time wolfed those things down like candy--they added anywhere from +2 to +5 extra damage and various other dumb bonuses and what else was a fighter going to do with that free time?

Anyway, it's all moot because you could make enlarge permanent if your DM flips a bitch about polymorph.

Your comment about having played with powergamers is extremely suspect when viewed in this light; even people with moderate skill in 3E would go through enlarge potions like beer when they were available.

[RandomCasualty2]

Are you fucking kidding me, RC?

Potions of enlarge cost 50-250 gold pieces and lasted for up to 5 minutes, depending on how much of an asshole your DM is. Any fighter that had at least 1 round of prep time wolfed those things down like candy--they added anywhere from +2 to +5 extra damage and various other dumb bonuses and what else was a fighter going to do with that free time?

Oh believe me, I don't give them 1 round to prepare. My monsters just don't sit around like dumb asses while the PCs cast their buffs. They usually have ambushes of their own set up, and will deliberately flee if they see the PCs are buffed.

3.5 required that you pretty much use a lot of prebuff counters and thus I did.

And as far as using more long term potions, like 5 minute ones, that cost adds up fast. It's 250 gp per potion, and assuming you burn one potion each encounter from say levels 5 to 8 and you take 8 encounters to gain a level, that's going to be 6000 gold. That's a huge chunk out of your wealth for 8th level if you want to do that. Burning 2000 gp on potions each level isn't really all that economical. Those costs add up.

Doing that tactic is great if you're playing a one shot adventure, but I commonly run campaigns, so planning for the future is something people care about. While consumables are a great solution if you're just planning for short term power, as a long term plan, they fall short. Generally any consumables the PCs use are taken from the party pool as to reduce the impact it'll have on anyone's wealth.

The permanency on enlarge is another tactic that isn't particularly practical for a campaign, since it can get dispelled.

The more I hear this stuff, the more I suspect our differences of opinions may just be based on the type of games we play. In a one shot adventure, the tactics you propose would actually work pretty well. If you play a long running campaign, as I often do, then people are less willing to light XP and gold on fire for temporary bonuses. Dominating one battle helps, but you're going to dig yourself into a deep hole of debt eventually.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Why are you so stubborn?

Three different people are attacking your perspective from three different angles and you keep saying that because you haven't experienced it, it isn't a problem.

That's extremely infuriating.

[virgil]

This treasure limitation isn't a significant problem, as virtually no monster actually has true spellcasting in those level ranges. Besides, isn't your expected wealth for your level regardless of how things were spent the prior level?

I forget, were you the one arguing about 4E being a team game? I consider enlarge person to be one of the basic low-mid-level team tactics.

ADDENDUM: Forgot about the cost of being large. You can either have a constant magic item for only 2,000gp, or spend ~3k getting permanency cast on it.

[RandomCasualty2]

This treasure limitation isn't a significant problem, as virtually no monster actually has true spellcasting in those level ranges. Besides, isn't your expected wealth for your level regardless of how things were spent the prior level?

3.5 has a double standard as far as that goes. Really I don't think any DM constantly adds up their PCs wealth. More than likely a RAW game would just be following the treasure tables to the letter and that's the comparison I'm going by. The idea that the DM may give you kickbacks because you're under the normal wealth per level isn't a very realistic hope. If he's running a module, it's a no go, and it's a no go if he's following the default 3.5 treasure tables, neither of which take into account what you started with.

It is likely that your party may try to share extra gold with you, but you're still losing out on gold.

I forget, were you the one arguing about 4E being a team game? I consider enlarge person to be one of the basic low-mid-level team tactics.

But this isn't an argument about team tactics, this is an argument about what the fighter class can do. So what a wizard spell happens to be able to do for a fighter is irrelevant to the discussion. It'd be like saying that the 4E fighter can get free attacks if he's got a warlord using power X or Y. Yeah, that may be true, but it has nothing to do with the options available to the fighter class.

Were we having a discussion about teamwork in 3.5 versus teamwork in 4E, it might matter, but here it really doesn't.

ADDENDUM: Forgot about the cost of being large. You can either have a constant magic item for only 2,000gp, or spend ~3k getting permanency cast on it.

One is a custom magic item that your DM doesn't have to allow, which is equivalent to creating a new spell. Honestly no DM I know would allow it, nor would I. It's like allowing an item of permanent haste, true strike or displacement. It'd be broken beyond belief. Magic item pricing is just guidelines. Until a real item has been published somewhere, I'm just not accepting some always on enlarge as being viable, because it's not core and relies entirely on your DM allowing such an item.

As for the permanency, you've got to find a wizard willing to do it. Most high level NPC wizards are not going to want to burn XP for that, further most high level NPC wizards aren't going to be in the business of selling spells, but rather into more important things like world domination. There's really no guarantee you're going to easily find one, because high level wizards are rare. And again, it can get dispelled. And you're kinda hosed whenever you want to upgrade your weapon, because while enlarge resizes the equipment you have when it's *cast* it won't auto resize shit you pick up after. So even a permanent enlarge is going to screw you over down the road. Between getting it dispelled so you can use the new sword or armor you found and getting it dispelled by enemy casters, it may well end up costing you more than potions.

Permanent enlarge, even if available, just isn't practical.

[virgil]

Permanent displacement items effectively already exist (ring of blink, even better than displacement), and is cheaper than the formula, so that example is crap. I don't know where you're getting this idea that permanent true strike items are broken beyond belief, because that's an at-will item, which means you need to spend a round of doing nothing for only one attack to be at a +20, which needs to be in combat. Permanent haste is about the closest example you have there, except an item like that would cost 120k, so that argument is crap too.

My bad, an at-will enlarge item is 4k as a custom item (forgot the minute/level multiplier 3.5 added). When your expected wealth is 27k, it's worth it.

As for making permanency unavailable, that's just you being a jerk. It's standard equipment in the PHB, in the same chapter you buy yourself a horse or a piece of chalk.

But that doesn't matter, this is standard equipment expected to be had by an 8th level fighter in 3E, even outside of allies.

[ubernoob]

It's like allowing an item of permanent haste, true strike or displacement.

Boots of speed, gauntlets of true strike (MIC), cloak of displacement. Pretty much already in effect. Hell, there is even a per day enlarge person item in MIC.

[RandomCasualty2]

Permanent displacement items effectively already exist (ring of blink, even better than displacement), and is cheaper than the formula, so that example is crap. I don't know where you're getting this idea that permanent true strike items are broken beyond belief, because that's an at-will item, which means you need to spend a round of doing nothing for only one attack to be at a +20, which needs to be in combat. Permanent haste is about the closest example you have there, except an item like that would cost 120k, so that argument is crap too.

There's a different between infinite use and permanent. An infinite use true strike isn't something anyone cares about. A permanent one is, because you don't have to burn the action to use it. And that's basically the issue with the enlarge. If people have to burn the combat action to constantly cast enlarge, but can do it as much as they want, that's actually fine. However, once you get to the point where the thing is perpetually on and you no longer have to use it, or youc an simply use it out of combat so that it's effectvely always on, you're talking about an entirely different (and much more powerful) magic item.

As for making permanency unavailable, that's just you being a jerk. It's standard equipment in the PHB, in the same chapter you buy yourself a horse or a piece of chalk.

lol.

Yeah, only permanency requires that you have a high level wizard to actually make it. You're not buying it off some guy at the trading post, you're buying it off of a major and powerful person, one who has potentially better things to do than waste his time burning 500 XP to cast some spell for you. Have an NPC go up to a PC wizard and ask him to cast permanency for 3000 gold and he's just not going to do it. He's probably going to laugh at the NPC. I pretty much have the NPCs react the same way. If a PC wizard wouldn't do it, you can bet the NPC wizard won't either. NPCs have their own goals and motivations, and the prices in the PHB are just guidelines. When you've got good reason not to cast something (like it's going to cost you 500 XP), you're probably not going to do it for cheap.

Also, just because an item has a price doesn't automatically mean you can find someone selling it. This isn't a video game.

It's much like asking Bill Gates to make a custom program for you to do something and offering him $3000 to program it. He's pretty much going to tell you to fuck off and that he has more important stuff to deal with.

High level wizards aren't small fry. They probably don't want to waste their time on small time deals like this.

Hell, there is even a per day enlarge person item in MIC.

Once per day is fine, because you've got to pay an activation cost to use it. Constant use is not. And if you want to spend the activation cost, you've wasted your first round buffing and thus can't charge.

[Username17]

We are for some reason talking about the dumbass 3rd edition Fighter using Core and Complete Warrior played with basic combos and DMG equipment. And we're talking about a basic Shock Trooper hulkamaniac, who for some reason is a single classed Fighter. And he encounters two Trolls standing next to each other, and he goes all crazy.

First he charges in with his massive Bullrush bonus. Since this is an attack that always hits, he will take this as an opportunity to Expertise for 5, so that if this doesn't work out he at least has a sterling AC. Almost 90% of the time it will work out though, and then he tosses one Troll into the other's square. At this point he gets a bonus trip against both Trolls and he gets to make a followup move into the square of the second Troll giving him a 90% chance of tossing the second one as well - generating two more Trip attempts.

And now it gets sexy, because he is getting a free attack with a greatsword for every Trip that succeeds, and since he's in the middle of a Charge he can now Power Attack spending either AC or to-hit for up to 16 damage at two a pop. His greatsword itself is probably a +1 piece of shit because 3rd edition bones Fighters on treasure, but that's still looking at 2d8 + 29 damage per hit. And it generally will be hits, because at this point the character is getting +2 for charging, +4 for prone targets and +2 for squeezing targets (oh snap!). He literally hits these Trolls on a 2+. And he is entitled to Cleaves and Attacks of Opportunity if one drops or attempts to stand (respectively).

Seriously, our fighter friend is more than likely to succeed at running into a group of trolls, tossing them around into a disorderly pile and then chopping them to bite sized chunks in a dazzling display of brutal ferocity. At this point I believe that the player is required by law to jump up, thrust both hands into the air as if signaling a field goal, thrust his or her pelvis several times and shout "Ultra C-C-Comboooo!!!"

But of course you're right. This character is pretty underwhelming. He could be much better by being a human who trades out for a little Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker action; but more importantly he does need assistance from magic just to wipe his ass; he does have virtually nothing except the witty repartee of the player to contribute out of a combat scenario; and he isn't even overall winning a Same Game challenge because there's a lot of stuff like Allips and Goblin Archers on Spider Eaters that literally just laugh at him.

But you must see how unfavorable a light this puts 4th edition, right? That weird ass 6 step process that our Shock Trooper did to insta-gib two trolls in one turn is actually more super special awesome moves than a 4e character of any class gets all day, and our 3rd edition version didn't even use them up in any meaningful fashion. Our Fighter here has nothing to do out of combat and needs magic from outside sources just to wipe his damn asshole, but the 4e equivalent doesn't really get to wipe his asshole at all (and still needs outside sources of magical equipment just to keep from falling even farther behind).

-Username17

[virgil]

You do not get to ignore the presence of the standard equipment list, because to say otherwise is pure Oberoni.

[ubernoob]

Just to cut this off:
Greater Enlarge Person in Spell Compendium is a sorc/wiz 5 that lasts hour/level.
IIRC there is a mundane item in ECS called masterwork potion belt that makes drinking a potion a move action. I know of a couple ways to nab extra move actions. If the guy is a charger he can use Boots of the Battle Charger (MIC) to charge as a standard action 2/day.

50 gp for enlarge person is cheap for the effect. It's not that hard to get enlarged in combat.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

But you must see how unfavorable a light this puts 4th edition, right?

Of course not. Rather than realizing that you're intentionally using a handicapped example, the rest of the argument is going to proceed as though this is the baseline/min-maxxed example and then pretend that this comparison of an unoptimal 3E sword-based character is fair against an optimal 4E sword-based character.

That shaggy dog premise established, you will now spend the rest of your life getting nickle-and-dimed to death after getting chained by the wrist to that strawman because doing so somehow proves that a 4E character isn't a shitload of fuck. That's the way the Internet always was, that's the way the Internet always will be.

What, are you stoopid or something Frank?

[RandomCasualty2]

But you must see how unfavorable a light this puts 4th edition, right? That weird ass 6 step process that our Shock Trooper did to insta-gib two trolls in one turn is actually more super special awesome moves than a 4e character of any class gets all day, and our 3rd edition version didn't even use them up in any meaningful fashion.

I never said the 3rd edition fighter didn't do a more impressive combo. I said that the 4E fighter had a greater number of options, and thus was less apt to have to spam the same tactic. My entire point is that the 4E fighter has a variety of stuff and the 3.5 fighter just spends his feats working up some big combo that he just spams. Yeah, it's true that the 3.5 fighter never runs out of anything, but that doesn't help, that just means he spams things all the more. This only makes him more bland and boring. 3.5 doesn't have an effectiveness problem, so much as a lack of anything interesting. You've got one main schtick and the most exciting things you do happen to be shifting your points from attack to damage.

You seem to be getting too caught up in the fact that the 3.5 combo is much more effective, and not considering the fact that it's just something you spam in a boring fashion.

I guess, I haven't made my point clear. As a fighter, I don't want one gimmick that I can use at will, no matter how powerful it is. I want to have more than one special move I can do well, even if they're less powerful.

Shit I mean fighters in 3E can't even use their damn swift actions. It was only ToB that happened at the very end of 3.5 where they started to figure out that maybe fighters want to have options and gave them things to use their swift actions.

Seriously I want special stuff to choose similar to a spellcaster, I don't want just the ability to shift around my points from attack to AC or attack to damage. That's pretty boring. I mean it's damn nice from a powergaming point of view, but it's dull as rocks for playing the game. All it does is encourage me to memorize the monster manual and do math as far as what the most effective power attack is against what AC.

I generally prefer a more tactical game, and 3.5 really isn't very tactical as a fighter. I mean, pretty much I know exactly what action to take at all times, because my options are so limited. 4E at least presents fighters with choices like resource conservation, and makes it so that you're using different attacks rather than just spamming one super combo.

Our Fighter here has nothing to do out of combat and needs magic from outside sources just to wipe his damn asshole, but the 4e equivalent doesn't really get to wipe his asshole at all (and still needs outside sources of magical equipment just to keep from falling even farther behind).

Well the 4E fighter can actually learn rituals or get skill training and be good at some noncombat stuff. The 3.5 fighter will never be good at noncombat, no matter what you do. You can't even be good at a given noncombat skill because 3E bones cross class skills so badly that it isn't even worth it.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

I'd also like to point out that from now on, a 4E character will have fewer horizons on which to expand than a 3E character did.

Here are some hard-coded limitations to classes in 4E:

1) You don't get any fucken class features after level 1 in heroic tier.
2) You get three. Class. Features. Over a period of 10 levels in paragon tier. You also get 3 powers. C'mon, assholes, even for a 3E character this was fucking weak.
3) You get 1 use of a magic item per tier. So much for at least playing pretty princess dressup, MO LIKE STINKY HOBO DRESSUP.
4) The designers seem hellbent on limiting the amount of times you can recharge powers or action points for some fucken reason. So, I guess until level 25 (when you get Epic Trick), the only way you can actually get more powers as opposed to shuffling through them with those retarded powers that let you recover a power when you use it is to goddamn score a critical hit. Fuckin' great idea, that! And it's only encounter powers, too. WTF?
5) Multiclassing is a complete and utter sham in this game. The only way you'll end up ahead is by picking powers inappropriate for you and that's when this game really starts bursting at the seams. The wizard, for example, never gets a better dodging utility power than a low-level ranger or rogue. WHAT THE FUCK?


So, yeah. The amusing thing about sword-based characters in 3E that even mediocre or barely effective ones didn't look anything like the book says they should. Sword-based characters in 3E:

1) Took a combination of feats that maximized their entry into PrCs and their own schtick, such as the Robilar Gambit / Karmic Strike / Combat Reflexes Frenzied Berserker, rather than generic bullshit like Weapon Focus: Longbow for a barbarian or somesuch.
2) Were blinged out the ass with magical item effects.
3) Multiclassed up the ass and then took levels in a PrC.
4) Somehow acquired a way to get as many buffs as possible, even going as far as to pick Leadership just for a wizard who can cast Polymorph Any Object on them.


So, yeah. Not seeing it.

Fucking 4E.

[ubernoob]

As for the 4E fighter being good at combat:
4E skills and rituals are worthless.

[RandomCasualty2]

So, yeah. The amusing thing about sword-based characters in 3E that even mediocre or barely effective ones didn't look anything like the book says they should. Sword-based characters in 3E:

1) Took a combination of feats that maximized their entry into PrCs and their own schtick, such as the Robilar Gambit / Karmic Strike / Combat Reflexes Frenzied Berserker, rather than generic bullshit like Weapon Focus: Longbow for a barbarian or somesuch.
2) Were blinged out the ass with magical item effects.
3) Multiclassed up the ass and then took levels in a PrC.
4) Somehow acquired a way to get as many buffs as possible, even going as far as to pick Leadership just for a wizard who can cast Polymorph Any Object on them.

And for some reason people say that 4E characters have to be min/maxed.

Look at 3.5, you had to basically twink out everything you could. I mean to the point that you actually had to abandon your basic class to multidip into all manner of shit.

That list is seriously all the stuff about 3.5 that I hated.

• You had to dumpster dive like a madman to be any good.
• It wasn't your own skill it was your equipment.
• When in doubt, find a wizard and suck his dick for buffs.

And I go through all that trouble just so I can spam shocktrooper charges every combat?

That's the reason I always played a caster in 3.5. I seriously would never even consider playing a 3.5 fighter. ever.

The 4E fighter actually seems half decent. I can enchant my own magic items, I get a group of powers to choose from that let me do different things, I can mark people and stop em from moving away.

As far as the other options that 4E takes away, well I don't really notice if I'm playing a fighter since I wouldn't have had them in 3.5 either. 4E is a great edition to be a fighter. Sucks if you're a caster though.

[Tydanosaurus]

Well the 4E fighter can actually learn rituals or get skill training and be good at some noncombat stuff. The 3.5 fighter will never be good at noncombat, no matter what you do. You can't even be good at a given noncombat skill because 3E bones cross class skills so badly that it isn't even worth it.

Intimidate?

Besides, 3.5 has multiclassing. Be a Rogue1/Ftrx. You're as good at any non-combat skill as you want to be.

In 4E, there's not much for a Fighter to do out of combat. B/c of ability problems you suck at all the interesting non-combat skills. And rituals blow - that's a quick way to fall off the RNG.

[Username17]

I never said the 3rd edition fighter didn't do a more impressive combo. I said that the 4E fighter had a greater number of options, and thus was less apt to have to spam the same tactic. My entire point is that the 4E fighter has a variety of stuff and the 3.5 fighter just spends his feats working up some big combo that he just spams.

And THAT is why you fail - you've bought into the 4e paradigm of bullshit. In 4e you have to use all of your abilities sequentially, one at a time, each on their own. In 3rd edition you can do that, or you can use the abilities together, either within a single attack or within a round. For example: Power Attack and Combat Expertise. You can and sometimes will use one or both in the course of your regular attacks. If you take a lot of damage, Expertise starts looking great, if enemies have poor defense, Power Attack looks great, and both can be used together if both are appropriate.

But in 4e, each of those options is simultaneously only available all by itself, and only usable once in a combat (if that).

So what's grabbing you is that it looks like you have more options because the rules ration out the rate at which you can use the options that you have. But seriously, that's not an improvement. It's just slowing things down. It's just taking the most boring and useless character in 3rd edition and then slowing that down.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

Intimidate?

Besides, 3.5 has multiclassing. Be a Rogue1/Ftrx. You're as good at any non-combat skill as you want to be.

In 4E, there's not much for a Fighter to do out of combat. B/c of ability problems you suck at all the interesting non-combat skills. And rituals blow - that's a quick way to fall off the RNG.

The fighter doesn't have the required skillpoints for that.

[RandomCasualty2]

And THAT is why you fail - you've bought into the 4e paradigm of bullshit. In 4e you have to use all of your abilities sequentially, one at a time, each on their own. In 3rd edition you can do that, or you can use the abilities together, either within a single attack or within a round. For example: Power Attack and Combat Expertise. You can and sometimes will use one or both in the course of your regular attacks. If you take a lot of damage, Expertise starts looking great, if enemies have poor defense, Power Attack looks great, and both can be used together if both are appropriate.

Yeah, 3E is all metaabilities, they don't really give you new actions (except for a select few like spring attack), they just let you do other stuff with old actions. To me I guess that's pretty boring. I like to be able to really gain new powers, not just to keep modifying the old ones into one universal uber action.

Because the thing is that while my attack action gets better, it's still the same old attack action. It's just now I'm applying power attack or cleave or shock trooper or whatever to it. But I don't really feel like I have many meaningful choices, because all my fighter shit just gets used automatically or is a complete no brainer to use. Like there's no time I'd actually not want to use robilar's gambit. Power attack and expertise are those abilities that just reward people for metagaming and picking the optimal numbers against a known monster's AC.

And another really frustrating thing in 3E is that they give you your toys, like disarm, grapple, bull rush, etc. right at the beginning, only you've got to take a shitload of feats to make them not suck. So it's like you have this illusion of having a lot of options when you first read it, but then you realize that almost all of them suck, so it's just a tease.

You'd think that maybe you could adapt them round by round, but fuck this is 3E and stuff doesn't last that long. So really such abilities amount to who can remember monster manual stats the best. But that's the extent of the options you've got.

Now it's not like 4E is a wealth of options, it's not. But it's more options than just using a single souped up attack action for everything.

But in 4e, each of those options is simultaneously only available all by itself, and only usable once in a combat (if that).

But that's actually good. It's easier to balance and it's more interesting.

Having a bunch of meta abilities just leads to rocket launcher tag, which is precisely where 3E ended up.

[TarkisFlux]

Seriously RC? You find having all your discrete little options arrayed on a plate and permanently separated more appealing, interesting, and (most importantly) fun than having discrete little options that you can combine into something new? It's really better when you can do less with what you get?

That's... I don't fvcking know what that is actually.

[Kaelik]

RC, you are missing the most important part:

A 4E fighter can:

Knock someone down.
Push someone around.
Take a to hit penalty for more damage.
Hit multiple people.

A 3.5 Fighter can:

Push someone, knock them down, take a to hit penalty and do more damage and then hit multiple enemies.

They do the same things, only one of them does all of them and the other does one a round.

Would you rather have a full meal right now or that same meal spread out over three hours? How is spreading the meal out creating more food?

[virgil]

The large majority of 4E's abilities are merely the same action with shifted numbers. An attack that's the exact same as another, but does an extra d6 (or whatever) is somehow a new and exciting combat option?! It takes 4E to think that variations in your number choices for Power Attack are seperate combat options.

And you use 'metagaming' with your attacks anyway in 4E. Many attack options are used because they target non-AC, such as Reflex or Fortitude, which is the same damn thing.

And in the choice between rocket launcher tag and padded sumo, I'll take the former.

[RandomCasualty2]

RC, you are missing the most important part:

A 4E fighter can:

Knock someone down.
Push someone around.
Take a to hit penalty for more damage.
Hit multiple people.

A 3.5 Fighter can:

Push someone, knock them down, take a to hit penalty and do more damage and then hit multiple enemies.

They do the same things, only one of them does all of them and the other does one a round.

As odd as this will likely sound, I prefer them separate, because it gives me choices in combat. The thing with 3.5 is that I really don't make meaningful choices in combat, all my choices are made when I make the character and after that, I really don't get to choose anything.

Even though I can push, knock down and do big damage with one attack, I'd rather choose between them. Because I hate being a one trick pony. It's more fun for me to try to pick if I'd rather have my foe, badly damaged, prone or knocked back, depending on the circumstances. 3.5 frankly denies me those tactical choices, because I can add all my feats to my one uber attack. So I really don't end up making tactical choices. And taht to me is bland and boring.