d20 Modern Dialogue

[Save_versus_Stupid]

I just started playing in a campaign, so I would like to get overall opinions of modern.

I'm personally playing a fast hero, and from what I gather this character type is a little bit over the power curve the other classes bring. It looks like it's essentially a rogue, but with jacked defense and is also skilled while maintining 3/4ths BaB. I see it as a class that has a lot going for it over the "dumb" character types and the "smart" ones that are lacking a bit in combat ability.

But beyond that, any impressions?

[Lago_AM3P]

d20 modern is an amazingly shitty system. I'm finding bugs in this all of the time.

For example, lethal attacks dominate the first part of the game and then all of a sudden they become irrevelant. People can make the fortitude save against sudden death with some regularity (thankfully, this game doesn't use the 'autofail a save on a 1' retardedness) and at that point you want to switch to subdual attacks. Really stupid.

Also, there are a lot of dumb advanced classes. I mean a lot of them. You really want to get as many books together as possible; 90% of them are completely unplayable. However, a couple slip through the cracks and there are some genuinely good ones like Holy Knight and Field Officer.

There's errata on the wizards' site but you want to avoid it. All it ever does is nerf underpowered character concepts. For example, the errata doesn't allow you to combine brawl and combat martial arts. What the hell, man...?

Magic is generally shitty in this game but has some unreplicable effects, such as bringing people back from the dead or scrying. If your DM is running Urban Arcana then you actually want to have someone be a wizard--because the writeup means that people rationalize away your actions for no good reason and let you get away with murder.

What books does your DM allow? If he allows d20 future, then you want to quietly convince your DM to play something else; that game is completely unbalanced. If he allows d20 past, you want to be either a shaman or a gangster. If he allows Urban Arcana

[PhoneLobster]

D20 modern is bad news.

Every character concept under the sun at low levels can be represented better by fast hero than any of the other base classes and the advanced classes suck.

Magic is a bunch of innaccessible twaddle that is behind the par when you get access to it, but probably ahead of the par of a fighter anyway just sucky because actual monsters will eat your brains at ANY level.

However I have bought a d20 modern product recently.

I now own Macho Women With Guns despite the fact that it was d20 (damn you mongoose why d20?).

But I bought it anyway despite it being
1) D20 modern.
2) Full of typos.
3) Stupid.

Because of several positives.

1) I mean come on its called "Macho Women With Guns"
2) It actually miraculously manages to work better than d20 modern base does in several areas (cooler professions, general power ups for characters, entertaining feats, a disfunctional magic system LESS dysfunctional than d20 modern magic, a replacement wealth system, called shot rules, fun draw backs, blah blah blah.)
3) Its a big cult title and I want it on my shelf.

I like that book.

I mean there is a feat called "extra life" Which you use up fricking respawn. (Utterly unballanced in that its a nice one off power but a big ongoing cost, but at least its good for a laugh).

There is another feat that gives you a hit die. Not 3 fricking hit points, a whole hit die plus a cons bonus. From nowhere. I mean I could see a better powered or written feat, but that works.

The base professions suddenly give out big wads of special abilities and bonus feats all over, giving starting characters a small kick up in power level they can actually USE.

The magic system is mostly based on feats and mana points from mana dice (like hit die). There are many reasons that is dumb, but on the positive side its available from first level and functions better than core d20 modern magic progression. On top of that it doesn't hurt that the useless mental stat core classes from modern get big fat mana die while the three "we actually begin to function" physical stat core classes all get stuck with d4.

The advanced classes in the back are pretty much OK power level wise and about half of them have low enough entry requirements that you can pick them up as your SECOND character level. The very very worst on the list I think was about a level 6 entry requirement (but being level 5 when you take it is the ONLY requirement to be a Media Darling).

The thing is d20 modern has underpowered useless characters. Macho Women piles on unballanced bonus power (which can't hurt since core d20 modern characters are useless) along with more, but in this case mildly entertaining, uselessness to create something, well, stupid. And thats fun.

I have run one game so far and it was a resoundingly cheesy success.

Of course you really NEED to be a grand master GM to pull it off because you are simultaneously wrangling d20 modern (a complex uncooperative system) and cheesy comedy genre (no mean feat in and of itself).

But, you know, I rock.

[Josh_Kablack]

I dunno, Rich Redman never satisfactorilally answered my first question, "What modern-era game would I want to run in d20 Modern that I wouldn't rather run in HERO, Gurps, Feng Shui, Tri-Stat or Storyteller ....?"

Mr. Redman's response was pretty much, " I loved playing Feng Shui myself, it was a major influence on the design of this game." To date, that's the only response anyone has given me on the subject, which means that I have yet to hear a single reason why I should ever actually play or run d20 Modern. If someone here wants to give me one, go ahead......I'm waiting......

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I love d20 Modern. It just... yanno... has alot of problems. For the most part they're not BIG problems, at least not in my experience.

The only real big problem I've experienced is their hamfisted attempts to make d20Modern "D&D in modern times". The Modern engine is sufficently different that none of the fantasy elements work too well, especally the races. Spells wind up being either entirely useless or completly overpowering almost at random. They should have not been afraid to rewrite the Magic and Psionics lists from scratch, but unfortunatly, Wizards still operates under the assumption that a caster class level is as useful at second level as 20th, no matter what you were in the preceding levels.

-Desdan

[Lago_AM3P]

There are reasons to play the other basic classes, but they're pretty paltry.

Smart Hero- The only reason you'd want to play one is to get into the mage fast as quickly as possible before your magic becomes irrevelent.

Strong Hero- See above. While the +1 to BAB can be substantial at low levels, melee sucks at this point in the game and by the time you can use melee as a primary attack mode you'll be crying because you don't have evasion and opportunist.

Charismatic Hero- There's no reason to be this basic class in the long run, It'll slaughter your BAB and defense bonus and the attack modes it gives are inferior to using equipment (especially if you're advancing out) or goddamn basic feats. Also the bonuses are morale bonuses, which are almost as common as equipment bonuses in this game.

Dedicated Hero- Bizarrely, Dedicated Heroes make better diplomancers than Charismatic Heroes in theory. It's strictly theory of course, because there's no way you're taking all of these levels. With the low stat bonuses in this game, faith is generally something you should avoid.

Fast Hero- You want to be this class, unless you just HAVE to get into another one a level early. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Opportunist are the bee's knees in this game and will probably save your goddamn life.


Advanced Classes:

Soldier: If your DM hasn't read the errata on this class, good. If you have a /really/ high intelligence modifier and are willing to set fire to 2-3 BAB, you can make your party into combat monsters. In this game, you can begin and end a full-round action as a move-equivalent action. Which means that you want to do something like this:

1st Round: Soldier hero partially charges an opponent and gets his groove on. He uses a move-equivalent action to begin a full-round action.

2nd Round: High-level Soldier uses Heroic Surge and Tactical Aid. Allies get a bonus of +4-+7 on attack or defense rolls, depending on what other books they're using. The Soldier then takes a full round's worth of attacks.

Though this means that if your DM is using errata AND your Intelligence bonus isn't really high (like +3 coming in0 you want to avoid this class.

Martial Artist- Martial artist generally chew at low and mid levels. However, this changes drastically at high levels because of the stupid subdual rules.

Since you get a full BAB and an extra attack, any opponent who wants to melee you at this point in time (which will be a substantial portion, especially if you're playing a supernatural setting) will probably never hurt you, especially if you get in the first licks.

For added fun, you may want to take the shapeshifter prestige class (a web enhancement on the wizards' website) and then hunt through Modern Menance. There's a really strong monster out there that you can easily turn into that's stronger than the firlborg. Or you can just engage in tiger fu. With pounce, flying kick, and iron fist you'll rip through your foes like butter.

Gunslinger- This class pretty much speaks for itself.

Infiltrator- It's like being a multiclassed Fast Hero/Dedicated Hero only you take a BAB hit and you get situational bonuses in case you're being stupid. The aforementioned multiclass gets bigger bonuses and more of everything else (except for improved evasion) so it's puzzling.

Daredevil- You get shitty abilities that aren't any good except for increasing your combat survivability and then they saddle you with bad BAB. What the hell?

Bodyguard- This class is so amazingly shitty. It sucks worse than a goddamn errata'd soldier using weapon focus.

Field Scientist- If you have an abnormally high intelligence (like, +6 bonus) as a melee character (see soldier) you may want to take a sidetrip into this class for two levels. Otherwise, if you haven't already, you want to be a fast hero. They'll get better saves and almost as good of a defense bonus. And evasion.

Techie- If you're not playing in a game with magic, you'll probably want someone in the party to be one. But if you can get away with it, you'll want a friend who can be one. At the cost of completely wrecking your character you'll give everyone else substantial bonuses. Check it out.

Field Medic- There's no reason you want to be this guy. Acolytes suck, but they get better healing, schticks, attack, and everything. Field Medics get to bring people back from the dead two levels early as long as their friend can roll high on a fortitude save and they can attend to their friend within three rounds. Acolytes get raise dead. Whoopty shit.

Investigator- You get bonuses inferior to that of feats and options inferior to that of core options (using your goddamn reputation bonus, you idjit). Probably the worst advanced class in this book.

Personality- I'm sorry. This is the worst class in the book. You get an inferior version of diplomacy that works in smaller situations, you get two levels worth of class features that are inferior to Windfall, you get a version of charm person that's inferior to charm person, and probably the shittiest 10th level ability in the game. You get to cast control emotions! Whoo! Dumbasses.

Negotiator- This is also a crappy class but at least hands out better BAB and a genuinely good ability (you often gain surprise).

Occultist- Apparently this is some kind of a joke. You get a character ability at level 10 (minimum) that allows you to bind 4 HD creatures? What the hell, man?

Shadow Slayer- Now we're talking! They get an ability that allows them to put an end to a DM's trite attempts at suspense and investigation, they get substantial amounts of damage reduction against things that can hurt them, an ability that will probably save their life in a game that doesn't reliably hand out magical weapons, a large damage bonus against creatures in the DM's campaign, the ability to heal faster than Wolverine, and an ability to auto-stun any monster no matter how badass it is. It even comes with full BAB on top of that. If your DM is just using the basic book, you want levels in this class.


Telepath- There's really no reason to use this advanced class, especially if your DM allows you to be a mage. You only get a limited amount of power points and really no combat abilities. However, they do get a couple of effects (persistent mind control) that are unduplicable by any other class in this book so if it comes down between telepath and any of the other non-combat classes in this book you are going to want to be a telepath.

Battle Mind- What the hell, man? They don't get to use their signature weapon and defense item unless they spend separate move-equivalent actions to manifest them. Furthermore all of their class features go towards upgrading these things so if you don't waste time in combat they'll suck more.

This might have been a good detour from errata'd soldier and martial artist if these were free actions. But then you see that they only get 33 power points at 10th goddamn level to play with. And only a tiny amount help them at all. The rest are shitty options like spending 5 power points to dish out 3d6 worth of savable damage.


Mage- FrankTrollman is dead on about the inferiority of mages in this system. However, they do get a couple of effects that are unreplicable by any other means if you're breaking out Urban Arcana. For example, you can abuse online casting and make your party buff monsters. The spells in this book are pretty unimpressive--this class is generally inferior to:

Acolytes- This gets a lot better if you're playing Urban Arcana, seriously. In the meantime, enjoy your ability to turn undead, magical beasts, and outsiders, which is seriously like 2/3ths of the critters in Urban Arcana. They also get cure spells, the ability to raise the dead, the ability to lay down traps in their apartment, and the only ability in the core book to add extra tokens to the PC's side.

[Lago_AM3P]

I'll touch on the other classes in Urban Arcana and d20 past and future later.

There's classes in d20 apocalypse and cyberscape but they're not actually worth playing. None of them. So we won't go over those. There's some good potential cheese in these books but nothing in the way of classes or feats.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Why in God's name would anyone ever play d20 Modern when Spycraft does everything Modern does about a kajillion times better?
__________________________________________________

Josh's Question: "What modern-era game would I want to run in d20 Modern that I wouldn't rather run in HERO, Gurps, Feng Shui, Tri-Stat or Storyteller…?"

Chan's Answer: Giant Pussies Get Killed. See, it's sort of horror, sort of dark, sort of Rambo. You're a bystander watching people play Spycraft. When a Spycraft character gets a critical failure, you die! The end.

[Josh_Kablack]

Um, seriously, I think that example you just gave actually runs better in Feng Shui than d20 Modern.

I can't speak to Spycraft, by experience with that system is limited to gaming with one of their freelance artists and "sharing" the beer he buys with the checks they eventually send him.

[Save_versus_Stupid]

Ok, to make sure I understand this -

I jack my character's subdual damage up, and take stuff like knock out punch. I connect. I auto critical. I easily surpass his CON, and then he passes his save. He's dazed, and I juggle him until he fails - at which point I coup him.

Am I missing something, or is this the dumbest mechanic since "Invisibility/Doom"?

[Lago_AM3P]

That's how it works. You can't do that with lethal damage, because making your saving throws doesn't do anything to do.

So for the first part of the game, characters have a good chance of flat-out dying because of failing their massive damage save. Eventually, most people leave the danger zone. This is about the point where melee combatants can jack up their subdual damage enough to take out anyone they can hit even once.

And yes, it is a really dumb mechanic. You daze your foe once and then you rip him to shreds. He can't recover from it at all.

[Nidhogg]

I don't have any real problems with d20 Modern, but it involves some heavy houseruling. Basicaly, I tell my players to pick any core or advanced class that they like, and then I make whatever they pick not suck.

[Lago_AM3P]

More Urban Arcana crap...

Feats! Oh boy!

(Greater) Spell Focus- I would just like to point out that Urban Arcana's nerf to this feat came out before 3.5E did, so feel free to blame d20 modern for fscking up a perfectly good feat.

Improved Grappling- If you're playing a character with full BAB and also pick up the other grappling style feats in d20 modern, you'll do good--though this feat (and grappling) become obsolete once you deal enough damage to inflict conditions on your opponents worse than grappling.

Power Crit- Insanely unbalanced feat in the hands of the Holy Knight. With this feat there's no published monster in any of the book that poses a threat to you of your character level.

Precise Strike- See power critical. In fact, your Holy Knight (and any character, really) might want to fall back on this feat while power-attacking their ass off. Against creatures like constructs you'll do boatloads of damage. This is a good reason to pick up the fighting style of two-weapon fighting, actually.

Supernatural Strike- Naturally, you'll want to have this feat no matter who you are. Duh.

Spellslinger- I really can't say much about this feat. It gives a pretty huge, if unremarkable bonus. Take this feat and blow a level of BAB to sneak in two levels of Ecclesiarch and your Holy Knight will never have want of buffs.

Advanced classes! Thrillsville!

Arcane Arranger- This is the replacement for techie if you're playing d20 modern. You get to tell the DM to go fuck himself if he claims you can't have a toy you want and as an additional bonus you get gigantic bonuses on the diplomacy check for your friend to convince you to sell the item and a gigantic bonus on the wealth check to buy it. You want to have an NPC friend take levels in this class because it's not good for anything other than making everyone else love you.

Archaic Weaponmaster- Insanely shitty prestige class that is inferior to even an errata'd soldier or vastly inferior to a Shadow Slayer. What the hell?

Glamourist- Apparently people liked the crappy Personality so much that they had to make a cousin to it that's just as bad. I know who's responsible for this travesty, too. GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY GAME YOU 'ROLEPLAYING' DIG-ITS. JUST BECAUSE YOU TAKE LEVELS IN A CRAPPY CLASS BASED OFF OF A CRAPPY STAT DOESN'T MEAN WE NEED TO GIVE YOU A NOD. We don't give nods to horny dogs who try to hump the GM screen! And I'd rather have to put up with them then you morons.

Mystic- An extremely inferior version of the Acolyte who gets two 'unique' class features. That is, they can brew potions and turn human beings. Well, whoopty shit--if you want to brew potions take levels in Shaman. They have better spells to put in a brew and they don't suck. If you want to turn humans take levels in the goddamn Ecclesiarch class. Most divine spellcasters want to, anyway (though Holy Knights have a good reason not to).

Shadowhunter- Apparently this is some kind of joke. If you want to divine things and hunt down people, take three levels in technomage or mage and the rest in Shadow Slayer. You'll get bigger tracking bonuses against more targets, more BAB, and a boatload of other abilities.

Shadowjack- OR you could just beg and plead for your DM to let you use material from d20 Future and Cyberscape. They have shitty decker--WHOOPS SORRY--hacker prestige classes that are better than this and they have this deal where automatically come with new rules (due to you using this book) rather than paying class features for this unfunny joke. Nice concept, BTW, idiots. Feeling a little short in the pants compared to Shadowrun, are we? You should be in the face of superior rules and theme, Rich Redman. Now get out of my office you retarded weasel--you disgust me.

Speed Demon- This class could be the best thing ever and I wouldn't care. Vehicle rules in d20 modern are shitty and boring. Shadowrun had the good sense to abstract and streamline a lot of them and actually make you care.

Street Warrior- Imagine, if you don't lose your will to live, if you could take levels in the feat off-hand parry. That's what specializing in Street Fighting does to brainless fucks such as yourselves.

Swashbuckler- The Swashbuckler sucks, especially compared against a Shadow Slayer or a Soldier (let alone a Holy Knight), but they are leaps and bounds better than the other two swordfighting classes in this book. Puzzling.

Technomage- Strictly better than a regular mage. You want this instead of regular mage, trust me.

Trasher- Unless you're roleplaying in a strictly nonmagical campaign, this class doesn't really build up to anything. The first four (or one) levels are sort of worthwhile as a sidetrek if you have a shitty dexterity score and a good constitution score.

Wildlord- *GURVE*

Prestige Classes! Hold me, FrankTrollman!

Archmage- A good sidetrek for technomages and mages one they've taken all of the levels in their class. They'll still go obsolete, to be sure, but not as badly. Plus this class practically begs you to use incantations. If your DM will let you, you should definitely go for it. It's really the only way to kill monsters in this book.

Artificer- All of the item creation feats suck except for the ones that will let you make your own weapons. Your party will love you for this. Highly recommended that you take at least one level in Archmage before doing this. A class for people who are willing to have less power than an arcane arranger but also don't want to become useless in every other situation.

Ecclesiarch- This is a pretty hilarious class. This gives you very powerful mind control (except against outsiders and dragons, what the hell?), backloads your caster levels, and even gives you more spells. Unfortunately it gives out poor BAB, otherwise I'd universally recommend it as a sidetreck from Holy Knight.

Holy Knight- You've heard me pimp out this class for a lot. And for good reason. This class is pure sex, or at least as you're going to find it in Urban Arcana.

Here are the requirements:

Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Knowledge 9 ranks <-- Extremely easy to get.
BAB: +8 <-- the only real 'downside' is that you can't get it sooner
Feats: Weapon Focus in a melee weapon. This is probably the worst part.

Here's what you get:
1d10 hp per level (second best in the game, only Tough Hero, Trasher, and Bodyguard get 1d12 hp and they suck)
Better fortitude and will saves in 5 levels than any class can earn through the normal save point advancement system.
5 skill points a level, which is more than any other primary fighting class.
Full BAB.

Those reasons are enough to take levels in Holy Knight but the goodies keep on coming.

Divine Spells- You get up to 3rd level spells, which isn't great, but you can fill them with buffs. I highly recommend that you take Spellslinger for just this purpose.

Divine Grace- Like the paladin ability. Given how low stat bonuses are in this game, it usually works out to be about a +3 modifier when you get it. Of course, if you've thought about things ahead of time, you should have a higher bonus than that (more on why later). Even if you didn't, in a level you realize that you have Enhance Ability and the good times keep rolling.

Sense Allegiance- Like Detect Evil, only it's quicker, unfoolable, and unblockable and can be fine tuned with a relatively difficult search check. And when I mean fine tuned, I mean you can discover exactly how many 'evil' people are in a room of 100. This is a nice little 'fuck you' to the DM if he wants to run a suspense adventure.

Smite Allegiance- It's a smite attack like the paladin that costs an action point. Fine, Lago, you say, that's all well and good but I'd rather use my action point for something else. Well, guess what, bitches? It also has a clause where you get the 'normal benefits of the action point', which means you can use it to jack up your saves or attack bonus in the same round or (for more fun) use it in conjunction with power crit. For those of you paying attention at home, an 11th level Holy Knight who power attacks their charisma bonus (+4) with the right weapon (that has a x4 multiplier) can dish out 60 damage just from the smiting. There's almost nothing now that can stand up to your awesomeness. Merry Christmas, you assholes.

Turn Undead- The only really so-so ability you get. Fortunately, you can enhance it through feats. Though if you came in to this cast through being an Acolyte it just might make you smile. Or you can bail out a level early and take levels in, say, shapechanger if your DM hasn't lost his will to live already.

Divine Touch- Here it is! This is THE ability. This is the sole reason you've boosted your charisma modifier (though divine grace was a really nice appetizer), this is the sole reason you specialized in unarmed combat, and this is definitive proof that god loves you. If you've jacked up your charisma modifier enough, this can translate into a lot of in-combat healing. Or more importantly, damage. If you took the combat martial arts chain (specifically, advanced combat martial arts), power crit, and then back that ass up with a smite attack you will kill anything in the game. I'm serious. check it out.

Example:

You have a Strong Hero 3 / Martial Artist 5 / Holy Knight 4

Feats:
1 Combat Martial Arts, Improved Combat Martial Arts
3 Defensive Martial Arts
6 Advanced Combat Martial Arts
6 Supernatural Strike
9 Power Critical
12 Power Attack

The sample 12th level Holy Knight has a charisma bonus of +6 after throwing up an enhance ability. He charges at a foe, smites, power crit, and divine touches. He decides to power attack the charisma bonus. He has the combat martial arts feat that gives him x3 damage on an unarmed strike. He has a strength modifier of +5 after throwing up an enhance ability. He had three levels of strong hero, two of the talents in melee smash.

So, with no weapons or anything, he dishes out...

1d8 (martial artist unarmed strike) + 5 (strength) + 12 (smite) + 60 (divine touch) + 5 (flying kick) + 2 (melee smash) for an average of 88.5 damage base. For 274 damage when he lands a critical.

Your attack bonus is 12 (BAB) + 5 (strength) + 1 (the weapon focus needed to get into this class) + 6 (smiting) + 2 (charging) + 1 (having masterwork knuckles) for a total bonus of 27. You have a 90% chance to kill an Adult Dragon (CR 19 when adjusted for dragon fetishism), due to its hp of 253 and AC of 29.

This will only continue to go way up as you gain levels--there's no monster you can't kill in one charge attack as long as you have Supernatural Strike and Power Crit in your corner.

Awesome.

There's some crap in here about losing your allegience but we don't need these rules. What kind of moron would want to bail out of this awesomeness, anyway...?

[Oberoni]

I heard such good things about this system when it first came out, but this thread is making me glad I never got the book.

[PhoneLobster]

I just want to drop a little word in mocking d20 Future as some of the worst junk ever.

I'd like to do so simply by pointing out the two Robot races in the book. The ones that make those lame robots from Eberron look Uber powered.

So get this.

Immune to mind effecting junk. Ok.

Repaired instead of healed.... oooookkkkkaaay.

No cons score, d10s for hit die. ooookkk!Wait. Still effected by critical hits (dough)... But, yeah okay then whatever I get to be an uber robot right?

Right. So what about feats and stuff.

No racial feats. Oh. What the! NO FEATS AT ALL AT FIRST LEVEL.

And No Proffession (there goes extra class skills, wealth bonus and a bonus feat)

OK so then I get to be an uber super human right? I get neato stat mods right? I mean my cons is null, and I get no feats I gotta have stats right?

Null cons, charisma set a 5. Roll the rest. No mods.

WAIT I theres some funky bit where I can just use an array of 4 stats and put them where I like and not have to roll... 14, 13, 12, 10 (or worse, I actually LOST the book in the progress of this post).

At least they explicity grant me the ability to improve my attributes by 1 every level like everyone else, I don't know WHY they mention that but they do.

Ok. Right well my robot sucks. Maybe I get cool robo powers and gadgets, software upgrades. I mean there is a whole chapter of those on the next few pages.

Too bad, those are for NPC monster type robots.

Now have fun playing a robot.

Don't try and play as the terminator or even stupid R2D2 or Short Circuit because at best you are gonna be able to emulate C3PO or Kryten (you know the one, with his novelty condom shaped head, heck theres even a picture).

Now I'd be double checking this, but like I said I just mysteriously lost the damn book, its so ashamed it seems to have run away to hide sobbing in some dark corner.

And this is totally not the first time its done that.

That book has no spine.

[Save_versus_Stupid]

Well alright. I am sufficiently disenchanted with d20 Modern now.

[User3]

1154064887[/unixtime]]
Ok. Right well my robot sucks. Maybe I get cool robo powers and gadgets, software upgrades. I mean there is a whole chapter of those on the next few pages.

Too bad, those are for NPC monster type robots.

You can still be upgraded as normal if you're a robot, which makes all of the crappy staring stuff irrelevant. You've got a friend with the Heir backgound, and so your Str & Dex are about 30. Your mental ability scores are around 25. You've got some sort of carbon-fiber armor plating. You've got every single skill at something like 12 ranks.

[Lago_AM3P]

You can still be upgraded as normal if you're a robot, which makes all of the crappy staring stuff irrelevant. You've got a friend with the Heir backgound, and so your Str & Dex are about 30. Your mental ability scores are around 25. You've got some sort of carbon-fiber armor plating. You've got every single skill at something like 12 ranks.

That's the thing about d20 future. This stuff is prevalent in the book.

I'd only recommend using it for the feats and for the advanced classes. They are actually fairly okay; while they lack the pizzazz of the holy knight and the gangster and the shaman, they have the best average in d20 modern as far as usefulness goes.

I have all of the d20 modern books. Anyone want to hear me make more fun of this 'edition' or are you all just too depressed?

[Oberoni]

Lago, don't stop rockin.'

[MrWaeseL]

I have all of the d20 modern books. Anyone want to hear me make more fun of this 'edition' or are you all just too depressed?

You could never depress me, Lago. <3

But why do you have all the books if they suck so much? Didnt you get wise after the first two or three?

[Fwib]

1155830373[/unixtime]]But why do you have all the books if they suck so much? Didnt you get wise after the first two or three?

The reason why?

[Lago_AM3P]

But why do you have all the books if they suck so much? Didnt you get wise after the first two or three?

No, but seriously. You'd think so. To be honest, I like playing d20 modern even though it sucks a hot one. It's a simple system where you don't have to learn too many new rules, especially if you are familiar with D&D. My favorite setting so far, Urban Arcana, is like Shadowrun (my new favorite darling system) except that it's much lighter-hearted and encourages more heroics. Which is weird because one of the pages shows a fucking disemboweled and cannibalized Santa Claus in graphic detail. Like, there's a trail of guts and meaty ribs sticking out.

Anyway, I keep buying the books basically because I'm waiting for a good power combo to come up, since characters universally suck. Even the Holy Knight, whom I drool over a lot, does not actually have that many things to do in the game. d20 Future has some good bread, but unfortunately it doesn't fit into a lot of settings.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Endorsing or suggesting copyrighted material be gained through file sharing is a no-no.
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[PhoneLobster]

You can still be upgraded as normal if you're a robot, which makes all of the crappy staring stuff irrelevant. You've got a friend with the Heir backgound, and so your Str & Dex are about 30. Your mental ability scores are around 25. You've got some sort of carbon-fiber armor plating. You've got every single skill at something like 12 ranks.

My d20 Future book came out of hiding momentarily today and I wrestled it open to the robot chapter before it could escape.

And you know the robot chapter seems to tell me two things.

Theres a pair of race type robots, they're for heroic classed robots.

Then there's a heading which talks about non heroic robots and THERE it says that THOSE robots can take upgrades including skill and feat upgrades.

So where if anywhere do you get a rule that lets you upgrade heroic robots?

I'm not seeing it...

Best I can manage is wrangling the poor wording of robot resurrection into allowing you to have NON feat or skill upgrades at the cost of your charisma score, your body and your life...

[User3]

1157803949[/unixtime]]
So where if anywhere do you get a rule that lets you upgrade heroic robots?

I'm not seeing it...

Ah, I think I see the point of confusion between us.

If you fire up your copy of the SRD, and turn to the "FutureRobots" section, one paragraph down there is the heading "ROBOTS AS HEROES," which describes the basic class stuff. Below that are two similar headings, "BIODROID (“ANDROID”)," and "BIOREPLICA (“SYNTHETIC”)." These are both followed by standard racial descriptions.

Thus ends the section on heroic robots.

The next heading ("NONHEROIC ROBOTS") details the basic NPC stuff, and is followed by a fairly standard 'type' description, under the heading "GENERAL ROBOT TRAITS."

Thus ends the section on NPC robots.

Then you have the ressurection bit, and then the meat of the chapter: The robot building section. This applies to both NPCs and PCs, which I think is why you weregetting confused. At first it may appear that this would allow players to pick robots which mught be marginally more interesting to play than "Data," but not to fear: PC robots have already been restricted to playing Medium or Small-sized bioreplicas and bioroids. Because of this, you can completely ignore the "frame" section. After that, everything is open season, and you can add whatever you can pay for to your new robot character.

In case you need more to convince you that this is the truth, I'll add some circumstancial evidence.
1) PC bioroids can explicitly use integrated armor.
2) Before the skill and the feat software sections, there is a paragraph specifying how such equipment works for players. If they weren't allowed to purchase upgrades, this would not be an issue.
3) Under the heading "ABILITY UPGRADES," there is the following sentance: "Heroic and nonheroic robots can receive structural and programming upgrades that increase their ability scores. (Heroic robots can also improve their mental ability scores by gaining levels, much as organic characters do; see Robots as Heroes for details.)" I call it one sentence because I'm assuming the period between "scores" and " (Heroic" is a typo.