Ending TNE Work Stoppage

[Username17]

So having a system of opposed or unopposed movement really benefits from having a reverse-order initiative declaration. That is, if you decide to move to a point, people with better initiative scores can call that a circle interception just by declaring their intent to close with you afterwards.

This is somewhat onerous on people who have bad inits unless it is their intention to close, because anything else and they'll have to anticipate people jumping them or running away. If you declare that you will circle and defend your position, and the enemy decides to just leave you alone that turn you've basically lost an action. D'oh!

I rather like that rubric.

So for example with zombies:

• The Zombies have atrociously bad initiatives, so they have to declare movement first. They of course choose to heedlessly close with the warrior.
  Now the warrior has two main options. He can either try to run away, in which case it's a chase interception and he has to beat all the zombies or they start getting to attack his rear in a non-sexy way. Or he can circle and defend his position. In this case he can make tests to try to stay away from the zombies and he'll get an attack on one of the zombies if it actually manages to close anyhow.
  In the first option, his hope is that he can beat all of the zombies in a chase test long enough to hide or get help. Failure to do so and zombies will tackle him and pull him down.
  In the second option, his hope is that he can keep beating almost all of the zombies while he cuts them down one at a time with an axe. And of course if he gets swarmed, the zombies will bite him repeatedly.

-Username17

[Crissa]

While I want different characters to bring different things to the table...

...I don't want to be 'stuck' because we didn't bring a Rogue or Wizard or Fighter to the table either 'that night' or 'that adventure'. If anything Feats were good for? Choosing to take one of the class abilities - like Track - and activating the minigame for the team.

And minigames need to be accessible to all of them - though characters should be able to opt out. Curved result ranges if possible.

-Crissa

[Username17]

For a more standard fantasy fare, I think reviving the old culture focus material would be in order, and throwing in some more unique creatures like orcs.

D&D goes way fucking overboard with races, and the heavy modification of powers from culture is a much more organic way of handling every advantage that racial bloat has. Nevertheless, people seem to want recognizable Tolkien races even if they say that they don't.

Chronopia had really cool Orcs (The Black Bloods) and Dwarves (who ran around in animal masks), and I could see using those easily.

-Username17

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

D&D goes way fucking overboard with races, and the heavy modification of powers from culture is a much more organic way of handling every advantage that racial bloat has. Nevertheless, people seem to want recognizable Tolkien races even if they say that they don't.

This is totally subjective and I'm willing to be called on it, but it seems to me that a cross-section of speculative fiction races that are supposed to interact positively with humans (and aren't just forehead aliens) usually include the following:

1) A midgety race that's just basically there to be short. Staple a personality on there.

In fact, if the racial sampling generally has more than 6 races, there will probably be two midgety races. D&D goes slightly overboard by having like five (halflings, gnomes, dwarves, kobolds, goblins) but there is a market for them.

2) Proud warrior race that sees themselves better than everyone else except for a select few who can keep up with them.

3) Snobby 'smarter and better than you' race. Degree of actual superiority and tolerance by other races varies very widely but nonetheless they have them.

4) Petting zoo people race that look like dogs/cats/rabbits/whatever. Degree of furriness will definitely vary but they're basically there to be 'if humans were one less degree removed from apes, they'd act more like these people than humans'.

5) Shady reptilian race.

6) A race that's there just to highlight how alien their culture is from humanity. You know, insectoids, flying brains, tentacle monsters. They aren't monsters, think more of the nice tentacle aliens from Galaxy Quest.

[Username17]

Any race that is there to illustrate a cultural difference, such as your warrior people, your snobby people, or your weird people can and should just be a cultural sect of another established race.

Every race in the game can and should be grounded in real physical differences, not completely voluntary cultural ones.

-Username17

[virgil]

Even in the normal battlemat rules, being adjacent to a pit gives no hindrance to movement or chance of falling in unless you put in specific text saying otherwise, so I wouldn't call it a tradeoff per se.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Every race in the game can and should be grounded in real physical differences, not completely voluntary cultural ones.

Well, okay. Here are a couple of ideas I'm just throwing out.

1) Midgety race. You have to have a midget race.

2) A nice, blob-like tentacle race, like the aliens in Galaxy Quest. They follow all of the game-balance rules of TNE like everyone else but they do everything else differently enough that people notice. For example, while they're awesome at writing books and scribing, they can't sew worth a damn. For some reason, they wear armor and hit people with tentacles or swords as good as anyone else.

3) A plant-like race like the myconids or dryads. Since they get everything they need pretty much from just sitting around where there's light and/or water, the only thing that really motivates them is interaction with other races and stability. The ones not actively engaged in something spend a ridiculous amount of time sleeping to store up their energy.

4) There should be a race out there that's basically there to invoke the 'Mars Needs Women' trope. They can breed with nearly any sapient race and their children tend to lean towards the genetics of their 'monster' half. This position has traditionally been given to humans but there's no reason why a race can't be specifically created just for this purpose.

5) High-flying birdlike or insectoid race. They're pretty much just there to inhabit sections of the world (the sky) that no one else can really do anything with. Unlike cloud giants, their physiology doesn't inherently present obstacles from interacting with humans.

[K]

Well, The Forge d20 setting did just that. It led to some... interesting... fantasy art.

I mean, I don't have any visceral abhorrence to Grell-like PCs, or thri-kreen, or even vampires or rakshasa as PCs, but I don't want to go the Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed route and abandon things that people like just for the sake of being different.

I mean, when you can't call a warrior a Warrior and assume that people want to play sprites, you've gotten out of touch with your customer base.

That means that we'll present in the default fantasy setting Elves, dwarves, short people, and bestial races as default PCs. Then, if you want to pull something out of the MM (because you think Ogres rock or that squid headed monsters are sexy), then you can do that.

[zeruslord]

6.) Big race. Not necessarily giants or ogres, but Shaq or NFL sized. These aren't put in every setting, but it can be done if played well.

7.) Two or three rubber forehead aliens. Physical bonuses and penalties, and different sensory bonuses. These might just be to satisfy everybody's fear of change, but it is a standard way of doing things.

8.) One race with a real mental difference. Inherent rage, aloofness, telepathy, anything really. The key point is that it is actually genetic, not cultural. This can be combined with any of the above.

PS. Curse you for bringing sense into this discussion!

edit: stupid smiley

[Username17]

I remain totally unconvinced that Elves appease more fangirls by existing than they offend by not being awesome enough.

-Username17

[Crissa]

I offer my Pooka d20 for races for the TNE... Two flying races, two swimming races, two big races and two small races.

...Now if only I can find my writeup for it...

-Crissa

Humans spread far and wide across the lands. It's not known if the first human was an elf, dwarf, or vice versa, but they've always lived on the edges of the great nations of the elves and dwarves. Eager for the riches and comforts, humans in particular were willing to settle anywhere, do any job, and built up towns on the outskirts and crossroads of the trading houses. Once the trade with the Merfolk - the humans of the sea, they were called at first - began, humans finally found themselves succeeding in building towns and nations of their own. But still, it was their willingness to take any job and live in any place which was their key to success.

The Merfolk sprang up late upon the scene, finally breaching the waves and walking on land. They're not inherently any more magical than any other race, the cantrip to walk upon the land spread widely amongst their traders, more an endurance effort to stay out of the water. They call it learning to crawl when you could just walk. But no one can debate that their communities, sheltered from the storms and with lines of communication far faster and farther than the other races seems to always keep them one step ahead in a bargain.

The Elves and Dwarves are often lumped in with the humans who glue their civilizations together. Even to the point that 'human' has come to mean any of the bipedal races. Dwarven society is built around industry - if there's a better, harder, more permanent way to do things, the Dwarves will be there. Humans first served as menial laborers which allowed the Dwarven nations to focus upon more specialized tasks, from prospecting to inventing, to building even greater cities. To this day, most of the Dwarven and Elven society is fed upon bread from human sown wheat. The Elves, instead of focusing on physical vocations, headed to etherial ones. Education, study, preservation, research... These became the chief pursuits and exports of the Elven nation.

Parallel to the human lands were the Centaur and the Harpy. Centaurs, being able to traverse long distances in their nomadic ways survived in much poorer terrain than the other races. They've long been employed as seasonal workers by humans, who have no qualms in mixing with other races, especially one so adapted to a migratory life. Harpies, on the other hand, remained not aloof from the mixing civilizations but instead merely outside of it. Living in nooks no one else can reach, and using their long range, they still hunt and gather, overlapping the growing empires.

The two remaining races are the Pixie, whose size has limited their impact upon the world, and the Lamia, builders of great cities but unwilling to fight nature from growing over their constructions. Both of these races live in harmony with the world around them, which shields them from the eyes of the world. Which is probably all for the better, as they see no malice in it.

Even the races themselves have even further distinctions. Elementalists and Transcended are not uncommon. Some are inherited, others are considered blessings. Each race has some of each, but the human races have the most internal variety.

Of those with an elemental affinity, they claim to the powers of fire, stone, water, or air. They can conjure their element, and are resistant to some types of damage. These abilities are innate, and they're often seen as Warriors, Seers, or Shaman.

Some others have affinity with plants (Dryads), and still others with animals (Fauns) - although they're usually lumped in with the transcended. These are also often called Druids, even though they are otherwise normal people with simple gifts. Lastly, there are the Pooka, a fae soul caught between an animal and human forms.

The transcended come with abilities which fit no known alchemical make. The Angelic find in themselves the ability to lift up and mend others, finding themselves being able to stand against the tide of mortality. The Sinful find that they're gifted with a powerful voice and empathy, able to lead or deceive others around them; even their very shape can shift to the expectations of a mark. The transcended can be thought of as paladin, yet they are not avatars of any god, and whether they do good or ill is up to them.

[JonSetanta]

I remain totally unconvinced that Elves appease more fangirls by existing than they offend by not being awesome enough.

-Username17

... huh?

Elves have a unisex appeal for male and female fans alike.
An elf player is one that does not usually polarize the sexual differences; the elf women aren't fat and cluckish attitude, elf men aren't beefthroat douchebags with a hardon for planting axes in faces... at least by stereotype. There are always exceptions.

Without elves, those types of (mentally) unisex players will simply replace the archetype with a substitute, be it a waifish rakshasa, a kitsune, or some kind of nonsexual mostly-humanoid bugfolk drone.
It's the appeal of The Other, the third sex, that figure resembling Pie of Clive Barker's Imajica.

Unless.. you mean elves as by the Tolkeinwank expectation of being like little demigods of awesomeness.
Can't help ya there. That's a product of egotistical Tolkein fandom, not a universal stereotype.

[ubernoob]

Clive Barker's Imajica.

I wasn't aware that other people had read that.

[rapa-nui]

Reverse initiative is a really good idea, but the advantage can be so absolute that it warrants re-rolling initiative every round. Another issue with it is that you can get really confusing interrupt chains.

Order of Combat:
Elf Rogue: 23 total
Human Ninja: 21 total
Goblin Sapper: 19
Goblin Warrior: 12
Minotaur Warrior: 9
Elf Wizard: 2

Wizard casts a spell, which is interrupted by the minotaur charging towards him. The goblin warrior interferes with this and the sapper throws a grenade at the wizard but not before the ninja tries to slice it in half. The elf Rogue moves to interrupt the goblin warrior.

It can be resolved but its a bit more confusing than the way things are done now. What happens if someone tries to stop you and fails? Do you resume your action? I guess it could work kind of like The Stack in MTG...

[K]

Clive Barker's Imajica.

I wasn't aware that other people had read that.

In my youth I used to be very poor, and so I bought books more by size considerations than by quality considerations.

So yes, I am ashamed to admit that I've read that book too.

----------------------------

On another note, Frank and I have been discussing the idea of "under levels" that are below a starting level for adventurers. This is so that a starting adventurer doesn't have to kill rats to xp, and so that even a 1st level guy can have followers and henchmen if that is necessary.

I was thinking that elves could simply have a weakness where they can't leave home until they are Adventurer level 1. That way, elves are Awesome, but not unbalanced compared to other races. Every elf you fight or otherwise interact with outside an enclave is an adventurer and thus awesome, but the elven race won't take over the world by default.

[Tydanosaurus]

So having a system of opposed or unopposed movement really benefits from having a reverse-order initiative declaration.

That sounds interesting. Do you thing there could be some overwhelming results, though? If the system allows interrupts, that could get really annoying to guys that fail initiative.

Would you allow a hold or contingent action?

[Tydanosaurus]

On another note, Frank and I have been discussing the idea of "under levels" that are below a starting level for adventurers. This is so that a starting adventurer doesn't have to kill rats to xp, and so that even a 1st level guy can have followers and henchmen if that is necessary.

I was thinking that elves could simply have a weakness where they can't leave home until they are Adventurer level 1. That way, elves are Awesome, but not unbalanced compared to other races. Every elf you fight or otherwise interact with outside an enclave is an adventurer and thus awesome, but the elven race won't take over the world by default.

That's interesting. It's kind of like giving all PC's a +5 LA in 3.5.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Tolkienites. No matter what you do, Elves aren't going to be semi-godly immortals that banish darkness by their mere presence in the realms of men. Don't worry about it and put in Elves. It gives people a way to whine about how "You're elf isn't a REAL elf."

[Crissa]

rapa-nui, did you ever play Battletech? 'Cause that's how it was done.

-Crissa

[angelfromanotherpin]

Even in Tolkien, some elves are just butlers who get drunk and bamboozled, or the servants who shrug and do said butler's dubious bidding. That happens. All you need to sim them is that at appropriate levels their cultural abilities are about glowing on the ethereal plane and casting terror into their enemies with song.

Of course, by 'even in Tolkien,' I mean 'only in Tolkien,' because in most other pre-Tolkien sources what we would recognize as elfs are even more hardcore and magical.

That's not really a problem either, though. Does anyone have an issue with Fire Giants having a 'you must be this tall to play' label in the Tome material? Some concepts simply don't function below a certain level, just like others simply don't function above a certain level.

Anyway, in the end the 'standard fantasy' setting is going to be all about popular appeal. It's not about originality or artistic integrity, it's about pandering to the audience. Now the audience for elfs is not monolithic, but there are some more prevalent expectations based on the most popular fantasy properties which are, offhand, Tolkien, Warhammer Fantasy, and 'classic' D&D. Fortunately, those are in a profoundly incestuous imaginative space, and so the expectations don't really contradict each other.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

On another note, Frank and I have been discussing the idea of "under levels" that are below a starting level for adventurers. This is so that a starting adventurer doesn't have to kill rats to xp, and so that even a 1st level guy can have followers and henchmen if that is necessary.

This sounds sort of like the idea for level 0 for Final Fantasy d20.

Basically, the idea is that you play an intentionally neutered character that marks the halfway point between 'mook' and 'adventurer'. This is to represent characters like Harry Potter who, while stronger than average mooks, don't have enough awesome in them yet to become level 1 wizards who don't do bullshit like kill sheep and rats to advance or have to sleep after casting a couple of magic mizzles.

[Username17]

D&D races are off the hook. I mean sure, everyone knows that Gorgon is a word that refers to "things that can turn creatures to stone" and that basilisks and cockatrices are the same thing and that the catoblepas is the same thing as the D&D Gorgon. So out of those 4 D&D monsters there are seriously only 2 different legends. But hey, the word "Drow" is actually the same damn word as "Derro" it's just transliterated differently (which is why those monsters are so fucking similar in D&D - they are exactly the same piece of folklore).

But I think it's actually kind of profound that Elves and Dwarfs are the same thing in most legends. I would really like to ditch Elves as a separate thing altogether. With humans having as profound differences available to them as the Bean People and the Jarbans, the Dwarves can seriously go all crazed in variation as well in different culture groups. Seriously we can have the Dwarves just have a thing where they gain traits from the land they are in and the Dwarves who live in caves have rocky skin and the Dwarves who live in the jungle are all covered in greenery and so on and so forth. Anything that is supposed to be done in D&D by Drow, Derror, Forest Gnomes, Goblins, Halflings, Kobolds, Rock Gnomes, or Wood Elves can all be done by one actual species.

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Meanwhile, the Black Bloods. People just won't be happy if there aren't Orcs around. The Warhammer style Greenskins are to my mind unsatisfying, but having a fanged and brutish race of varying size is a fantasy staple. Orcs and Ogres can be the same thing if Orcs just keep growing as they age. Distinctly different from humans with a stooped posture, sharp teeth, and black blood. With a potentially large size, and natural strength they can impress the world.



-Username17

[virgil]

Would there really be much difference when you say that two different races are actually the same, other than as a background element?

Would this influence the race design for Sumeru, as I recall there being the decision to actually have quite a few different races.

[Koumei]

The Warhammer style Greenskins are to my mind unsatisfying,

Is that just because of the way they speak?

[Absentminded_Wizard]

But I think it's actually kind of profound that Elves and Dwarfs are the same thing in most legends. I would really like to ditch Elves as a separate thing altogether. With humans having as profound differences available to them as the Bean People and the Jarbans, the Dwarves can seriously go all crazed in variation as well in different culture groups. Seriously we can have the Dwarves just have a thing where they gain traits from the land they are in and the Dwarves who live in caves have rocky skin and the Dwarves who live in the jungle are all covered in greenery and so on and so forth. Anything that is supposed to be done in D&D by Drow, Derror, Forest Gnomes, Goblins, Halflings, Kobolds, Rock Gnomes, or Wood Elves can all be done by one actual species.

This could be really fun, particularly if all the different kinds of dwarves are laughing at the humans for thinking dwarves and elves are different races.

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The really interesting thing about the abstract positioning/movement rules is that, if you really want to get abstract, you could express the distances in time units rather than space units. Presumably, the GM could give dimensions when describing the space; but once the battle's started, all the players care about is how many moves it takes to get to Character X or Terrain Feature X.

The question of what to do when there are a whole bunch of terrain features is an interesting one. My question would be, what is the maximum number of tactically important terrain features that a battle typically has? There's going to be a limit on that number for even large spaces, since battles are usually fought in places that are largely flat.

[NoDot]

I recall there being a recent thread on races/cultures. I believe that it ended with four races: Orcs, Humans/Elves, Halflings/Hobbits/Elves, and Dwarves.