Still more Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Psychic Robot]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1069849

Hey, I got two threads in five minutes. Must be my lucky day.

I'm a bit tired of the "4E people are wrong because they say the game has now flaws" argument.

Sure the game has some flaws, but if it is on the whole a better games, these flaws aren't really important.

[Psychic Robot]

This thread promises to deliver.

I basically reposted bits and pieces of my earlier thread about exception-based design.[/url]

[Username17]

Wait, his counter argument is Magic the Gathering? Is he seriously suggesting that we're going to need to be passing around spoiler sheets and restricting monster and class sets in order to achieve system mastery, and that therefore EBD works?

-Username17

[Crissa]

As always, it depends on tone. IMO, he sounded like a jackass. YMMV.

I believe that was his intent.

Also, Constantine is one of the few movies I actually own. No, you don't watch it for what's-his-name, but the rest of the characters and the movie is fine.

-Crissa

PS; I notice the WizO comes in and tells you not to insult people, so they can say they warned you early on, even though you haven't actually done anything... And two other people said something so stupid that I couldn't even explain their posts to anyone outside of this thread.

[Amra]

Holy crap on a stick... I almost - almost - replied to that thread out of sheer exasperation, then realised I really needed to go the hell to bed.

Damn you, Psychic Robot, for ensuring that my dreams will be filled with a montage of images in which I pull the heads right off WotC forumtards.

The stupid, it burns

[Koumei]

Wait, his counter argument is Magic the Gathering? Is he seriously suggesting that we're going to need to be passing around spoiler sheets and restricting monster and class sets in order to achieve system mastery, and that therefore EBD works?

If only 4E had some of the interesting things from Magic.

"Pick a word. Every time anyone says that word, they take damage."

[JonSetanta]

Holy crap on a stick... I almost - almost - replied to that thread out of sheer exasperation, then realised I really needed to go the hell to bed.

Damn you, Psychic Robot, for ensuring that my dreams will be filled with a montage of images in which I pull the heads right off WotC forumtards.

The stupid, it burns

My restraint is astounding as of late.
I skim these linked ragethreads sometimes but the urge to flame and troll is surprisingly moderated.

[RandomCasualty2]

If only 4E had some of the interesting things from Magic.

"Pick a word. Every time anyone says that word, they take damage."

Yeah, it's not really that EBD can't do interesting things. It totally can. It's just that the 4E team decided to keep it really simple.

Actually it's more a case of the centralized design, because while the abilities are EBD, the status conditions they can inflict are based very heavily on centralized design. So you end up seeing the same mechanics over and over and over again.

[virgil]

Except that they slightly tweak it such that you trip over yourself even more. It's similar enough for an obvious similarity, yet different enough that you still need to refer to the ability to keep yourself from using a different set of numbers.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

This thread promises to deliver.

I basically reposted bits and pieces of my earlier thread about exception-based design.[/url]

I can't believe the number of people actually arguing that EBD is more concise than centralized design. One person even used the fact that the 4e PHB has less material than the 3.5 version as supporting evidence. Duh. Of course it's shorter. Cutting a bunch of stuff out tends to do that.

[Tydanosaurus]

Wait, his counter argument is Magic the Gathering? Is he seriously suggesting that we're going to need to be passing around spoiler sheets and restricting monster and class sets in order to achieve system mastery, and that therefore EBD works?

-Username17

Ah, Magic. The game where you literally don't know if you're even playing the same game as the other guy until you figure out which errata, spoiler, and banned list each of you is using. Nope, no complexity there.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

So... where the fuck do we get our crazy 4E character optimization bullshit now, then?

[Username17]

So... where the fuck do we get our crazy 4E character optimization bullshit now, then?

Well, D&D optimization is going to go through a lull for a few months all over the place. Gleemax is doing its big ritual of purging, Paizo is doing its own redefinition of the faithful, Enworld is in full inquisitorial mode, and apparently BG is doing much the same. There's nothing really to talk about on the D&D front, so D&D nerds are doing the next best thing: turning on each other and driving each other out.

Come September (well, probably October the way these things work out), WotC threatens to roll out their new forums. They will also roll out some new books, and since those won't be playtested at all - good chance there will be some crazy optimization shenanigans going down y then.

But really, the fact of the matter is that the RPG community is fragmenting. Hard. D&D 4e is driving people away from the monolith just as AD&D did. So we're going to see a renaissance in gaming. Like the one we had in the mid 1980s. But the funny thing about those things is, from the beginning and the inside they just look like established norms are falling apart. You don't see a progression towards anything until the new systems are already in place.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

So... where the fuck do we get our crazy 4E character optimization bullshit now, then?

/tg/, if you can stand the trolling and foul language in between rather genius insightful comments.
If anything there's been TOO MUCH 4e for the last month or two.

Now, it seems even the trolls are bored.
That's a bad sign.

[Talisman]

The trolls are quiet...too quiet.
<_<
>_>
x_x

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

But really, the fact of the matter is that the RPG community is fragmenting. Hard. D&D 4e is driving people away from the monolith just as AD&D did. So we're going to see a renaissance in gaming. Like the one we had in the mid 1980s. But the funny thing about those things is, from the beginning and the inside they just look like established norms are falling apart. You don't see a progression towards anything until the new systems are already in place.

Why would there be a new gaming system to replace the D&D, if at all?

It seems to me that pencil and paper is a dying hobby; it'll be consumed by the shitload of fuck that is the MMORPG.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Also, I bet cookies on the fact that the books coming out this year are going to be more like Loot and Lute/Skip Hates Sorcerers than Oriental Adventures/Defenders of the Faith.

As in, the stuff in there is by and large so stupid and weaksauce that it makes you wonder 'why'. There will be a couple of dumbass stuff in there like Natural Spell and Power Crit, but on the whole, complete ass.

[JonSetanta]

The trolls are quiet...too quiet.

Wait.. wha... what's that in the bushes?!?!

FIRE FIRE FIRE!

But really, it is beginning to make me wonder, has 4e been entirely dissected by gamers at-large and found to be almost entirely unpalatable?

[Voss]

But really, the fact of the matter is that the RPG community is fragmenting. Hard. D&D 4e is driving people away from the monolith just as AD&D did. So we're going to see a renaissance in gaming. Like the one we had in the mid 1980s. But the funny thing about those things is, from the beginning and the inside they just look like established norms are falling apart. You don't see a progression towards anything until the new systems are already in place.

Why would there be a new gaming system to replace the D&D, if at all?

It seems to me that pencil and paper is a dying hobby; it'll be consumed by the shitload of fuck that is the MMORPG.

Meh. People have said that before. Many times, actually. If it wasn't home computers, it was nintendo, then MUDs, then WoW and whatever else I'm skipping over because its a fucking long list.

Seriously, someone needs to do something really damn awesome. And at this point, really damn awesome needs to consist of a couple things: not taking things away, not targeting a niche market [sorry, White Wolf], and making it fucking available to people. Oh, and the system actually has to work.

Fantasycraft, if it hits the right buttons, has the potential for serious awesome. But it has to manage to have a seriously good ruleset [which is actually possible, I think], and they really need something more than a generic world [which is what may stymie them]. That tends not to fly. It can sell, but it always ends up a second-tier product. Ironically the title is going to both help and hurt them, and not intentionally (especially considering how old Spycraft is). And yeah, I'm talking about the '-craft' part of the title. Go figure.

Sooner or later though, someone is going to hit the big prize. We're just kind of stuck with several steaming piles of shit at this point.

[Voss]

But really, the fact of the matter is that the RPG community is fragmenting. Hard. D&D 4e is driving people away from the monolith just as AD&D did. So we're going to see a renaissance in gaming. Like the one we had in the mid 1980s. But the funny thing about those things is, from the beginning and the inside they just look like established norms are falling apart. You don't see a progression towards anything until the new systems are already in place.

Why would there be a new gaming system to replace the D&D, if at all?

It seems to me that pencil and paper is a dying hobby; it'll be consumed by the shitload of fuck that is the MMORPG.

Meh. People have said that before. Many times, actually. If it wasn't home computers, it was nintendo, then MUDs, then WoW and whatever else I'm skipping over because its a fucking long list.

Seriously, someone needs to do something really damn awesome. And at this point, really damn awesome needs to consist of a couple things: not taking things away, not targeting a niche market [sorry, White Wolf], and making it fucking available to people. Oh, and the system actually has to work.

Fantasycraft, if it hits the right buttons, has the potential for serious awesome. But it has to manage to have a seriously good ruleset [which is actually possible, I think], and they really need something more than a generic world [which is what may stymie them]. That tends not to fly. It can sell, but it always ends up a second-tier product. Ironically the title is going to both help and hurt them, and not intentionally (especially considering how old Spycraft is). And yeah, I'm talking about the '-craft' part of the title. Go figure.

Sooner or later though, someone is going to hit the big prize. We're just kind of stuck with several steaming piles of shit at this point.

[Voss]

The trolls are quiet...too quiet.

Wait.. wha... what's that in the bushes?!?!

FIRE FIRE FIRE!

But really, it is beginning to make me wonder, has 4e been entirely dissected by gamers at-large and found to be almost entirely unpalatable?

Not entirely, but thats just because nerds as a community tend to fragment and blindly support shit just because other nerds don't support it. Quality becomes a secondary issue. And unfortunately, there are enough people who really want to 'turn off the brain' and just kill things, and the new design principles of simple and stupid actually appeal to them. I do think most of those will get bored and wander off, sooner or later.

[Talisman]

...they really need something more than a generic world [which is what may stymie them]. That tends not to fly. It can sell, but it always ends up a second-tier product.

I don't agree with this. I almost always use homebrew worlds...in fact, I've never once used a "standard" campaign setting (although I'm preparing to run some 7th Sea set in Theah). A generic or nonexistant world is a non-issue to me re: a new fantasy RPG.

[Antumbra]

Heh, I got a pretty cool mental image of a big four part painting in very christian style from Frank's post and then I spent waaaaay too much time on this.

Somewhere along the line I forgot it was a static scene... so it's actually a very long wall mural that blends the events together.

Don't say I didn't warn you...

###

Part One: Gleemax - a drooling and empty-eyed man in beige robes - holds aloft the Fourth Edition DMG with one hand, standing in front of a fire made of 3.5 books and texts on Logic and Math. What his other hand is doing under his robes is - thankfully - obscured by the flames.

Part Two: Gleemax is visable in the background, the flames casting a looming shadow against the Mountain of Power towards which an immense, snaking train of followers wearing rags worm. Along the procession - before a narrow and treacherous bridge - is an obscenely smiling man - Paizo - sporting the raw and bleeding wrists of a escaped prisoner, he is born aloft on a fantabulous Broom of Flying, a doodled on DMG hanging on a chain around his neck while both hands fanatically rub the length of the broom.
Many of the followers - relieved at the familiarity - join him on Brooms of their own and chase around the elusive Golden Promise.

Part 3: The followers who resist temptation proceed towards the temple, watched by the schizoid eye of ENWorld - Thulsa Doom's head guard - and his men who spew vile and moronic abuse at those who pick at the holes in the patchwork robes they are given or notice the odd motion under Gleemax's robes. Those thought guilty of the Optimisation Heresy also incur a relatively weak Smite - once a day - with the Banhammer and are forced into accepting ball gags to be allowed to stay.

Part Four: Some Heretics flee, and must do great and furious battle (often involving the simultaneous use of TWO magical staves!)
A ENWanker and a Heretic roll down the temple stairs and mountain, into town whereupon they crash through the door of a shoppe named BrilliantGameologists....

BUTCH
So you like chasing people, huh?

He BREAKS the finger. Marsellus lets out a pain sound. Butch
then places the barrel of the .45 between his eyes, PULLS back
the hammer and places his open hand behind the gun to shield
the splatter.

BUTCH
Well guess what, big man, you
caught me --

MAYNARD (OS)
-- hold it right there, godammit!

Butch and Marsellus look up at Maynard, who's brandishing a
pump-action shotgun, aimed at the two men.

BUTCH
Look mister, this ain't any of your
business --

MAYNARD
-- I'm makin' it my business! Now
toss that gun!

Butch does.

MAYNARD
Now you on top, stand up and come
to the counter.

Butch slowly gets up and moves to the counter. As soon as he
gets there, Maynard HAULS OFF, HITTING him hard in the face
with the butt of the shotgun, knocking Butch down and out.

After Butch goes down, Maynard calmly lays the shotgun on the
counter and moves to the telephone.

Marsellus Wallace, from his position on the floor, groggily
watches the pawnshop owner dial a number. Maynard waits on
the line while the other end rings. Then it picks up.

MAYNARD
Zed? It's Maynard. The spider
just caught a coupl'a flies.

Marsellus passes out.

[RandomCasualty2]

But really, the fact of the matter is that the RPG community is fragmenting. Hard. D&D 4e is driving people away from the monolith just as AD&D did.

I dont' know about that.

Most of the casual players I know really love 4E. They admit it's a different game and has a different feel, but they actually like it. The people who don't like it tend to be the older players who always played spellcasters. The fact really was that 3.5 required a level of system mastery that most people just weren't comfortable with. And while 3E was a total playground for the Char Op min/maxer, the casual player just feels overwhelmed. I mean not everyone wants to spend a ton of time trying to master the system. And one of the 3Es biggest problems is that if you didn't do that, you got kicked in the balls. Hard.

I saw that aspect scare away a ton of gamers.

Now it's the other way around where the hardcore system masters are getting scared away, but the casual players are getting attracted.

Of course once, WotC starts spamming splatbooks that unbalance the game that could rapidly change. WotC has to be very careful about what they produce for 4E, since right now things are going good, but if they start excluding the casual gamer again by rewarding dumpster diving, then 4E's fanbase will completely fall apart.

[Voss]

...they really need something more than a generic world [which is what may stymie them]. That tends not to fly. It can sell, but it always ends up a second-tier product.

I don't agree with this. I almost always use homebrew worlds...in fact, I've never once used a "standard" campaign setting (although I'm preparing to run some 7th Sea set in Theah). A generic or nonexistant world is a non-issue to me re: a new fantasy RPG.

I'm not really talking about the campaign setting. I'm talking about the 'generic' feel. Gurps was full of this, and admittedly that was part of the point. But it doesn't pull people in- someone who has a setting or handwaves it doesn't care, but it has no draw on the majority of the market: its just another generic fantasy game, one more among a pack. If you want to sell something, it needs to stand out from the pack in some fashion. Things like rolemaster and gurps are out there, but they don't really become the big thing in the way that D&D does. And part of that is having a specific feel rather than than the toolkit feel.