How to make direct damage worth a spell slot

[Hicks]

So I'm sitting in church, and then *BAM* it hits me:

Direct damage instantanious spells (such as magic missile, scorching ray, fireball, cone of cold, disintegrate, and meteor swarm) should be a swift action to cast, and you should be able to cast it a number of times equal to your caster level with the use of one spell slot.

Thoughts?

[Leress]

So I'm sitting in church, and then *BAM* it hits me:

Direct damage instantanious spells (such as magic missile, scorching ray, fireball, cone of cold, disintegrate, and meteor swarm) should be a swift action to cast, and you should be able to cast it a number of times equal to your caster level with the use of one spell slot.

Thoughts?

It makes lower level spells not really worth casting and higher level spells awesome. Of course there are still better uses of my immediate action then casting direct damage spells.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Hicks, I don't like the idea, but I think that you are on the right track. For the most part, the Evocation spells are worth their actions in combat, but getting 11 swift-action Disintegrate spells from a single slot may be a bit much.

I'd rather go with a feat or feat series:

Arcane Channeling
You blow people up with raw magic. This feat scales with your caster level and spell slots.
0 - You may spontaneously cast an Arcane Blast spell from any spell slot to do 1d6/level in either fire, cold, or electricity damage (the type of damage is chosen at time of feat selection) at medium range as a standard action ranged touch attack, that allows a reflex saving throw (DC based on level of spell sacrificed) for 1/2 damage. Spell resistance and metamagic shall apply as normal.
1 - Additional Ability (Select one ability from the list below, according to preference)
6 - Additional Ability
11 - Additional Ability
16 - Additional Ability
- You may take AoOs with your Arcane Blast.
- Instead of doing damage to a single target, you may do damage to all targets within a ball of 20' in radius.
- You may change the type of energy you strike with as you wish. You may now also select sonic, acid or force energy, if so you wish.
- You may ignore Energy Resistance (but not Immunity) with 1 type of energy (chosen at time of taking). This option may be selected multiple times for different types of energy.

Advanced Arcane Channeling (prerequisite of Arcane Channeling)
You blow people up with raw magic... A lot. This feat scales with your caster level and spell slots.
0 - You no longer have to make a touch attack with your Arcane Blast.
1 - Your spells have a secondary effect according to the following descriptions if the target fails his save. Cold energy slows for 1 round. Lightning energy stuns for a round. Fire energy sets the person on fire until they put themselves out with a DC 15 reflex save and a move action. Acid energy subtracts 1d6 from the target's AC. Sonic energy deafens for 1 round. Force energy pushes the target 5 feet per 2 spell slots used to cast the spell (round up), this ability does not generate AoOs for you, but may for others.
5 - If you cannot cast your Arcane Blast as a 20' radius ball, you may now cast it as a ball. Else, you gain the effects of Sculpt Spell for your Arcane Blast.
11 - You may now do 2d6/level in damage with your Arcane Blast.
16 - You overcome spell resistance, energy resistance, and energy immunity with your Arcane Blast.

There, now any caster that takes the 1st feat can blast after combat is effectively over with their low-level spell slots, and any caster that takes the 2nd feat is a primary blaster.

[K]

Well, if you did that then fighting characters would no longer be able to do anything useful.

Fighting characters have nominally been given the role of damage dealers and damage soakers. In truth, spellcasters are better at damage soaking at anything but the very lowest levels since even a 2nd level effect like mirror image can soak more damage than the fighter ever will and at lower cost(no healing needed).

It is also the truth that a dedicated damage dealer spellcaster who spends feats towards that end can outperform a fighting character. Spells like scorching ray are the the kings of single-target DD and anyone who has ever dropped a fireball from extreme range or into a solid fog knows the value of hitting several guys for several turns before combat even begins.

So while your idea wouldn't harm the balance among spellcasters much (and there are better immediate effects for spellcasters), it would harm the balance among fighting characters vs. spellcasters. You'd also get a not fun thing where people at high level just spammed their very best evocation with every real spell they cast..

That being said, Eberron tried something like this where every time you cast a spell you'd get it back an hour later but CL-4 until you ran out of CL.

[Roy]

I've seen a fix where you add the relevant stat modifier as a bonus to each damage die, capped at spell level. Which means Magic Missile just gets +1 per missile unless for some odd reason you have 11 Int/Cha, making it 5d4+10. Fireball gets up to 3 per die, for 10d6+30. A 9th level blasting spell gets +9 per die as long as you have at least a 28 stat to support it. In other words, 20d6+180, or thereabouts. Before metamagic, CL buffs, or well... anything really. Useful? Most likely. It actually makes blasting a save or die at the high levels, except it does more if they make their save. Up to you how you feel about that.

[Surgo]

Why can't direct damage spells have secondary effects? I mean there's the obvious one of a fireball destroying every last mirror image on a guy, but maybe direct damage spells could have some other debuffing effect that helps the warriors out?

[Roy]

Why can't direct damage spells have secondary effects? I mean there's the obvious one of a fireball destroying every last mirror image on a guy, but maybe direct damage spells could have some other debuffing effect that helps the warriors out?

See Spell Compendium. Specifically anything starting with the word Orb, Cometfall, Maw of Chaos, and others. Course then what you have is a save or suck that just happens to do some damage but hey.

[Surgo]

Those aren't really debuffs, though; they are, as you say, save or sucks in disguise (and generally limited in their targeting). I meant debuffs more on the form of passing out negatives to whatever.

[Roy]

Some of those Daze. Others Sicken, Entangle, knock Prone, Blind...

[JonSetanta]

Raise the damage up to 1d8 with +8 per level beyond the first, or 1d6 +6 per level with an added effect (as discussed in previous threads here).

Every 4 levels add another 1 damage per caster level.

It might still not be enough, but 1d6 per level really is a shit amount.
Even an automatic Maximize effect for all Evocations would help without breaking things.

[Hicks]

Clarification may be needed. What I meant was:

"should be a swift action to cast, and you should be able to recast it a number of times equal to your caster level with the use of one spell slot in the following rounds."

So you are a 5th level wizard and cast fireball. It takes a swift action to cast, and you can cast it again up to four times (each time expending a swift action). So you'll do 5d6 damage in the first round, and 5d6 the next time you expend a swift action, and so on.

NOT five 5d6 fireballs as a swift action.

The deal is that an instantanious direct damage spell is usually a wase of a spell slot over, well, anything else. Seriously, when was the last time you ever saw a wizard prepare or a sorcerer select polar ray? delayed blast fireball? cone of cold? Anyone?

I am aware of the shananigans a wizard can pull with scorching ray, and I am also aware of invisibility, blur, mirror image, blink, displacement, and lesser globe of invunrability. But the point I am trying to make is not spell counters to other spells, but making a 17.5/8.75 damage fireball worth a 5th level wizard's highest spell slot.

[Judging__Eagle]

I want the spell casters to think.

Not say "lighting bolt! lighting bolt! lighting bolt! lighting bolt! lighting bolt!"

-_-;;

Which is seriously one of the most boring things that people think spell casters should do.

Then again.... I want everyone to think. Even if it's something as simple as "I'm getting Great Fort for my RoW Barb to make all of their saves awesome when raging; and the -20 HP leeway helps in case I get downed while Blitzing; the extra DR later on will really help as well" or "I want my fighter to make spellcasters they meet have a bad day, Mageslayer and Juggernaut and then let's grapple them to bits."

The deal is that an instantanious direct damage spell is usually a wase of a spell slot over, well, anything else. Seriously, when was the last time you ever saw a wizard prepare or a sorcerer select polar ray? delayed blast fireball? cone of cold? Anyone?

Living Greyhawk.

The group at a Con that 'beat' the "kill X amount of monsters in Y amount of rounds" 'adventure' spammed Cones of Cold in the EL 10-ish (or w/e) version of the encounter.

Our group should have used Sleep/Coloursprays; since we were lvl 1 for the most part.

[Koumei]

If you want to add debuffs without making them "Save or Suck, also there's some damage." then why not make specific debuffs that are designed to remove specific defences?

Magic Missile: cancels out with Shield (and similar) spells. If it blocks the MM, then it also gets cancelled.

Acid Arrow/Orb/Your Mum: dispels ironskin, dealing double damage to the target.

Fireball: destroys mirror images, knocks people prone if they fail the save.

Lightning Bolt: Ironskin foes don't get a save, all fog/mist spells clear away.

Cone of Cold: freezes Mage Armour (inc. Greater) in place, effectively paralysing the mage until they end their spell as a purely mental action.

You'd probably also want ones designed to fuck people who have Enlarge/Reduce, Polymorph/Alter Self/Shapechange, stat boosters and the like. They deal damage, but aside from that they remove effects that people place up, forcing them to do something else.

Granted, I'm always a fan of abilities that hit hard on people who spend too much time buffing - Reaving/Slashing Dispel, Kaleidoscopic Doom, the Punishment ability from Pokemon etc.

[Judging__Eagle]

"Kaleidoscopic Doom"

I don't even know what it is or where it's from, but it's just an awesome name. Thought I'd mention that.

The combination of something so... harmless sounding, even childish and toy-like, with a word like 'doom'.

"Icecream Voidance", "Insanity Cubicle", "Flensing Pillow", "Apocalypse Laughter"

That was.... interesting. I actually had to think about what to pair up with icecream; I didn't want hurricane, tsumani or other weather things, since it's obvious what it would look like.


"Icecream Voidance"

-A spell that freezes the targets internal water; dealing (dex?) ability damage over several rounds

"Insanity Cubicle"

-Eh.... this one's easy to think up; it's a cubicle, and you're forced to do a repetetive and boring task; mental ability damage

"Flensing Pillow"

-I.... I have no idea really, maybe it flenses the target, and the flensed material is made into a pillow? Really fucking ghoulish.

"Apocalypse Laughter"

-You laugh, it either destroys objects or scares the bejeezus out of everything (i.e. it is neither mind affecting nor a fear effect; it's an evocation that forces all objects/creatures to make a will save or run to as far as they have to go to not hear you; if they remain, they start taking damage (or their mental/physical abilities are drained/reduced/penalized). Basically it bones undead and constructs just as badly as it breaks the walls of a building.
-It's your 'evil villan' laugh.

[Roy]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Mostly scary for the interrupt blocks and four flavors of SoD. But hey.

[Hicks]

I want the spell casters to think.

Not say "lighting bolt! lighting bolt! lighting bolt! lighting bolt! lighting bolt!"

-_-;;

Which is seriously one of the most boring things that people think spell casters should do.

And yet the popularity of Warlocks, Blaster Sorcerers, and the entire concept of Frank's Firemage* hinge on the idea of doing raw elemental damage as your combat gimmic. The fact that such an action is damn near always not worth the oppertunity cost of your action causes me physical pain.

Currently, building a blaster wizard is a losers game. Is anybody seriously going to stand up and challenge that statement? With a straight face?

Living Greyhawk.

The group at a Con that 'beat' the "kill X amount of monsters in Y amount of rounds" 'adventure' spammed Cones of Cold in the EL 10-ish (or w/e) version of the encounter.

I could say that empowered fireball is a 5th level spell that has a longer range and does more dice of damage untill the casting wizard reaches level 15, when they do equal damage, and to Energy substitution that bitch to be cold if you really feel it's necessary, but my real argument is that cone of cold wins the bronze metal for the shittiest spell in the entirety of 3.5 D&D (right behind the un-erattaed ghoul gauntlet, and polar ray)

++++++

Upon consultation with my girlfriend, I have an amended proposal:

Instananious direct damage spells should not be expended when you cast them. The Barbarian swings his Greataxe all day long, and the Wizard slings Fireballs all day long.

No casting time reduction, no arbitrary limit to how often you can do it.

If you Quicken an instananious direct damage spell, you cast it as a swift action all day long.

Why? Combats are supposed to last somewhere between 4 and 6 rounds. If your combat spell duration goes on longer than that, you suck and need to reevaluate your combat potential. Casting your spell "attack" is almost as shitty an option as actually having your wizard attack with his quarterstaff, Because you're not casting a real spell this round. Quickened spells are balanced by having a DC 4 less than if they were a standard action to cast, and therefore can be thought of as the wizard equivalent to an afterthought.

Now, we're not at the WotC forums, so keep in mind Frank's Firemage:
Firemage - does more direct damage with fire than anyone is comfortable with, and has a shit load of theamed class features it can use when you fall out of initiative.

Wizard with IDD spells - Does less direct damage than the firemage, but can swap out the elemental/area type, and as a shit load of theamed class features it can use when you fall out of initiative (such as real spells).

*Firemages do not give me phisical pain, but are included in the list as "popular" classes based on community reaction, community imitation (Acid and Force Mages), and personal gametable reaction (Verdict: "made of liquid Win and Awesome").

[Kaelik]

Currently, building a blaster wizard is a losers game. Is anybody seriously going to stand up and challenge that statement? With a straight face?

I don't know if it counts as a "blaster Wizard" but my most powerful Wizards past level 13ish have an offense that mostly involves using the same direct damage spell to kill pretty much everyone.

Though I am looking into replacing it with the less universal more awesome chained empowered maximized twinned quickened fleshshiver.

I just wish I had the feats to do both Fleshshiver and Orb of Fire.

[Hicks]

Kaelik, you have piqued my curiosity.

What hoops must one jump through to get a

chained (+4)
empowered (+2)
maximized (+4)
twinned (+3)
quickened (+4)
fleshshiver (The base spell I presume?)
Spell slot (?) + 19 spell levels in metamagic whin the limit in a non-epic game is usually 9 spell levels?

[Ice9]

I'm guessing a combination of Arcane Thesis and Incantrix, which reduces all metamagic costs on that spell by two, making it effectively:

chained (+2)
empowered (+0)
maximized (+1)
twinned (+2)
quickened (+2)
= +7 levels

And if you want to get cheesy, it can be argued that +0 metamagics count as -1 with Arcane Thesis, meaning you can just stick a bunch of Energy Substitution and other minor crap on to make it +0 levels.

How do you not have the feats to do both though? Arcane Thesis is just one feat, and everything else applies to any spell.

[Hicks]

Does not Elven Spell Lore (PHB II) apply to a specific spell? Though since I'm away from my books for two days, I don't recall how it applies.

[Voss]

I think you're going about it the wrong way. The problem isn't that direct damage spells are shitty, its that 3rd edition allowed hit points to balloon out to absurd levels. (and then did weird, half-assed and generally stupid things that tried and failed to make damage relevant after about third level).

Go back to the first and second edition scale of hit points, and the system is largely functional again.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

The Barbarian swings his Greataxe all day long, and the Wizard slings Fireballs all day long.

The 3.x Barbarian has a severely limited number of times per day that he can rage. Additionally, the number of times he can swing his greataxe is limited by his hit points (And many other things, instead of spell slots).

Go back to the first and second edition scale of hit points, and the system is largely functional again.

...for evocation spells. For martial characters and monsters, all the damage goes off to crazy town.

[Surgo]

I still think the idea of direct damage spells doing some sort of spell-specific debuff (no save for the debuff, obviously) is an interesting way to do things and possibly add a bit of teamwork to the group once in a while when you'd actually use them.

[Kaelik]

double

[Kaelik]

I'm guessing a combination of Arcane Thesis and Incantrix, which reduces all metamagic costs on that spell by two, making it effectively:

chained (+2)
empowered (+0)
maximized (+1)
twinned (+2)
quickened (+2)
= +7 levels

And if you want to get cheesy, it can be argued that +0 metamagics count as -1 with Arcane Thesis, meaning you can just stick a bunch of Energy Substitution and other minor crap on to make it +0 levels.

Other things are Easy Metamagic from Dragon, or a bunch of -1s from Arcane Thesis.

How do you not have the feats to do both though? Arcane Thesis is just one feat, and everything else applies to any spell.

The problem is 1) In order to get all the feats I want, and get all the metas I need, basically costs all my feats at any reasonable level of play. Sure at level 18 I can have both, maybe, but still.

2) Chain is Fleshshiver only, Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture are (I think?) Orb only. Then you need something like Fell Magic, and Corrupt, and Piercing Cold, so that something Immune to all energy still takes 3/4ths damage, and the negative level.

The parts that don't overlap are:

Energy Sub, Energy Admixture vs Chain.

And Easy Metamagic for Admixture or Chain.