Star Wars d20: Thoughts? (And Min-Max)

[Lago_AM3P]

So I lent my copy of Star Wars d20 to my roommate before I moved and after doing an inventory of my books I have found out that I no longer have that book.

The thing is, though, I haven't really read through the book. Is it worth buying a second time, IYO?

Also: Min-maxxing. What do you do?

[Sir Neil]

I ran four games in the month before we escaped the Carolinas. I hated it.

*WP/VP: Teh Suxxor. In all four sessions the Jedi tank would drop unconscious from a crit.

*Challenge Code: CR with extra stupid. Compounding the first problem, the book doesn't even offer CR by level. For instance, a Code A challenge could range from CR1-3.

More hate coming soon.

[PhoneLobster]

I used the (revised) star wars rules with some modifications to run some Paranoia games (primarily no force classes or soldiers, everyone first level)

All in all it worked out great.

Droids made excellent bots since even most of the pre stated utility droids pretty much trampled the lamo first level characters produced.

The VP/WP thing worked well, most characters would be dead on a critical or two, and the small VP they had would barely suck up half a shot from the laser pistols (blaster pistols) usually being waved about anyway.

So yeah, star wars rules? for star wars, not sure, for an instant fatality game where every character is moderately useless and has six or so clones, a not too shabby second choice substitute.

(I wouldn't mind anyones opinion of the new Paranoia XP if anyones seen it, not to derail anything).

I'm moderatly impressed with the rules as modified for the Knights Of the Old Republic computer game. I like what they did with the feat structure and stuff for instance.

I've never actually run the star wars rules as intended.

And its been a while since I read them over... maybe I'll have a look and post again.

Oh yeah and star wars d20 has a revised eddition too. Possibly better than the original, (potentially unlike the 3.0/.5 thing) since, apparently, it was released due to demands by fans dissappointed with obvious flaws in the original version.

[PhoneLobster]

OK I had a look at the good old revised core rule book and e gads man. It is bad.

I thought I'd type some notes as I went on points of interest, and soon ended up with pages and pages, everything was worth mentioning due to the sheer stupid of it. Half the races are totally unplayable, especially ewoks, which like several are almost outright laughable, the rest are niche NPCs.

The only class worth being is jedi guardian and I rambled to two pages on how incredibly ridiculously dumb it is to try and actually BE a tech specialist, who should be killed on sight in any campiagn if players want to encourage a greater proliferation of enhanced items.

The jedi powers are confusing, complex, use character resources that prevent you from properly spending feats and skill points on other demands, and generally don't seem so crash hot, and nothing in the game is better than hitting things with lightsabers, which probably makes you win.

Droids are totally confusing in their presentation, how DO they really handle droid character advancement? What the heck happens if a tech specialist makes a master craft droid? And for that matter if a droid has no price listed does the tech specialist make it instantly and at no cost?

Infact if I am a stupid tech specialist and I somehow muster up the VAST experience point cost to make a +1 master craft star destroyer... what the hell effect is that going to have, and if its the effect I suspect why the hell would anyone think it was worth it?

Anyway I didn't even make it to the end of the class section, I was laughing my ass off and had catalogued so much blow by blow crap that I am too embarressed to actually post it here directly.

[RandomCasualty]

Min/maxing is simply being a Jedi Guardian. I haven't really looked at the revised rules very extensively but as far as I know, they're no better than the original ones balance wise.

The basic theme being: Jedis own everything and if you're not a Jedi, you're a moron.

[User3]

Interestingly enough, in Knights of the Old Republic and its sequel, you really want to be a Jedi Consular, rather than a Jedi Guardian. This is mostly because in the KotOR ruleset, high-level force powers are so astonishingly awesome that if you crank your save DCs high enough and can use them often enough, you can essentially walk through the second half of the game doing nothing but hitting the button for the "throw all enemies back for a bunch of damage and autostun"or the "hold enemy helpless in midair while inflicting damage" powers until they die.

And you still get to use a lightsaber. Not that you ever will, of course, unless you aren't paying attention, but your character model gets to look cool by virtue of having one during combat, and that's all that really counts.

--d.

[PhoneLobster]

I wouldn't say that being the consular is all that crash hot in KOTOR, a good jedi guardian is still going to utterly mash the on the whole rather weak opposition you tend to face.

And the thing is in the big baddy fight at the end of number 1 it seems (to me anyway) that the guardian has the advantage since the big bozo seems to be pretty resistant to force powers (long long ago, far far away, first time round my dark force consular just threw his entire stockpile of grenades at him every time they met since the force lightning and choke didn't seem to do squat.)

But there actually are a variety of different builds which can work well in KOTOR, partly because its not actually that hard, and partly because the system is indeed better. Still, I've never felt compelled to even attempt building a Jedi Sentinel, and starting as a scout is frankly dumb (scoundrel and soldier starts have their moments but scout...?).

I haven't got two yet, since PC users these days are living in the dark ages (its that moronic copy protection I tell ya) and Australia also lives in the dark ages, meaning my gaming is in the double dark ages.

I recon the KOTOR rules set is probably a far supperior revision to the star wars d20 rules in pretty much every respect, item customization that simple as it is actually WORKS, bonus feats for everyone, bonus feats selection is from the ENTIRE list, more feats in a big fat pretty layout, some dramatic changes to class abilities in general, force powers handled in a way which on the whole is seemingly dramatically different and better than the original, and no attempt whatsoever to pretend that most of the character classes are any use as anything other than somewhat inconsequential side kick NPCs. It also does all sorts of good things from the computer gaming stand point putting the endlessly annoying "Never Winter Nights" to the shame it certainly deserves. Damnit.

Now if you could just buy the KOTOR revised edition core rule book... I might almost recomend you do it. I can certainly recomend getting the computer game.

[User3]

My memory of the ending battle for KotOR 1 is admittedly getting fuzzier, but from what I recall, what you really end up doing is just cranking up the Force Speed and Force Immunity and life draining all the bystanders until they die, and then you can fairly easily whomp on the end boss guy with whatever springs to mind.

The Consular is by no means awesomely better than the Guardian, even in KotOR, but, subjectively, I had a much easier time stomping through everything with a Consular build. This is probably largely because I'm lazy and don't want to sit around waiting for my force points to recharge, a necessity if you start cranking out all the high-end force powers and don't have a lot of points and a good regen rate. As you accurately state, though, a well-build character will stomp through everything regardless of which way you go.

Which was fine with me, although I was getting bored of the pyrotechnics by the end.

--d.

[Lago_AM3P]

More hate, plz.

[PhoneLobster]

More hate.

OK, to elaborate some I'll talk about races, mostly the stupidest ones.

Ewoks get to be small (yay!) and get a dex bonus and a str penalty. So hey you think yeah, they are your blaster rifle buddies! Strap on a suit of heavy storm trooper like armour and an artillery level blaster cannon and just eat up the sweet (if small) dex bonus and the small size attack and defense bonuses.

But what is this other trait of the ewok? The only other trait. They get to be "primitive" which means they automatically lose all weapon profficiency feats they would get at first level and instead are only profficient in simple and primitive weapons. For almost EVERY class this is at least swapping blaster pistols (not too bad) for primitive weapons (mostly useless) and it could be as bad as losing blaster pistols, blaster rifles, heavy weapons, vibra blades and light sabers.

Oddly enough for ONE class being an ewok actually gives you MORE starting weapon profficiencies, yes thats right the TECH SPECIALIST (the crippled class that I would compare to the monk or bard as star wars d20s worst class if it weren't EVEN WORSE THAN THAT) only gets simple weapons prof anyway. So by being an ewok you actually lose simple prof, gain it again, and gain primitive weapon prof, sure you are building rocket launchers but you can't even use a hold out pistol without spending feats... (not that you have good BAB, VP, class abilities, saves or defense anyway so gun fights aren't for you)

Not that anyone would be an ewok tech specialist anyway, since all tech specialists are clearly mon calamari who get all these craft and int bonuses useful for the useless crafting monkey. (thats if people aren't already going around killing tech specialists as a charitable humanitarian effort)

Just to round things out ewoks also get to have less default languages than any other race, ONLY speaking ewok, not even reading or writing ewok. They are a race of illiterate gibberish spouting tech specialists who build blaster cannons and light sabers but can't hit the wide side of a barn with the weapons they actually use (stone axes and bows and arrows, small sized).

(Its not entirely clear but an ewok multi classing MIGHT allow you to pick up weapon profs after first level. Maybe. If it works like that, which it might not. Mind you multi classing mostly sucks since the only two classes you want to play are jedi guardian or MAYBE soldier)

This is not to say ewoks are the MOST useless star wars race. Its a close call but personally I regard the Quarren as having that title, a race so useless they have to hide their poorly distributed net loss of ability modifiers from the rest of the universe at the bottom of the ocean using a breath under water ability (and a swim skill bonus but no swim base speed).

Of course half the races in the book can breath under water (even before you think about high tech aqua lungs) and can ALSO see in the dark. Meaning they all go on holidays to watch the blind in the dark Quarren bumbling around on the ocean floor.

On the plus side the Quarren DO look a bit like Great Cthulhu, they just don't feel like him in their humiliated hearts.

Most of the races are in fact arguably a bit worse off than human but a couple are possibly narrowly as good as or better.

Mon Calamari are the best tech specialists... not that thats a title to be proud of.

Several races get a net ability modifier profit, sometimes well distributed too.

Duros are born pilots, maybe even fractionally more so than a human who blew his bonus feat on a "bonuses to two skills" feat, but not much use at anything else, or good enough at what they probably do well to make that remotely OK.

And Ceran get a profit on ability mods in conjunction with a racial +2 to initiative, not as good as the +4 to init the human can get by spending his bonus feat on improved init, but it does stack with improved init and their racial +2 dex...

And really in the end star wars d20 doesn't fall down in the race section (as amusing as I found it to read) but in the class section where true horrors unfold.

[Sir Neil]

More hate, plz.

You want hate, baby? Turn to the Skills chapter. Balance is still a skill instead of a saving throw, Listen & Spot, Hide & Move Silently are still distinct, but Open Locks and Disable Device are one. And then there are the Force skills.

Force Grip (Int): Spend 4 hp, inflict 3d6 damage, Will for half, DC 10,15, or 20 depending on your check result (9,10+,20+). OR you could fire a blaster pistol, same damage, better range, can make full attacks, with 100 shots for 0 hp.

The most feared art of the Dark Side: Force Lightning (Int): Spend 6 hp, inflict 3d8 damage (to a 30' cone?) Ref half, DC 10-25 set by check result (9-20+). Or you could throw multiple frag grenades, 4d6+1, Ref DC 15 for half.

The Classes chapter, AKA, "My god, they're full of empty levels!" I'll use a 'Class Name (Empty Level)' format.

Noble (4): Bard with worse Ref save and no spells. If you don't count "+1 to get a GM approved NPC favor roll" or "+2 to two skills" as abilities, and you shouldn't, empty levels increase to 11.

Scoundrel (4): Rogue who traded SA dice for "+2 to two skills" feats or Skill Focus and the Luck domain power 1xday per 4 levels.

Scout (4): Ranger, with bard BAB and no magic. But he gets Skill Mastery with one skill at every 5th level, as well as evasion and uncanny dodge, which is good, but you're still not a Jedi yet.

Soldier (9): Fighter, with no 1st level bonus feat, 4 skill points and light armor proficiency.

Tech Specialist (6): Misspelled in the RCR, the class' name should actually read, "Teh Suckiest". All medium saves, 4 skill points, bard BAB and hp, and the sole class ability is being able to make masterwork items. Supposedly it has other abilities, but let's be honest, +2 to one skill is not an ability.

Force Adept (3): Don't stop here, fool, only one more page to go and you'll be a Jedi. For those of you who don't, you get clr BAB, d8, 6 skill points, weapon maxes at 3d8. Suckers.

Jedi Consular (1): Clr BAB, d8 and 6 skill points, saber maxes at 5d8. Monk-like saves. Call him "Master".

Jedi Guardian (1): Ftr BAB, d10 and 4 skill points, saber maxes at 6d8. Monk-like saves. Call her "Master".

Ooh, ooh, let's got to the equipment chapter! I just spent the 3 feats needed to be proficient in powered armor, what do I get, master?

Sodomized by gungans, young padawan. Stormtrooper armor gives you DR 5 against critical hits only, +2 max Dex, -2 ACP, slows you to 8 (from 10), and gives you +2 Listen, Spot, and Fort saves vs. hostile environments.

When approaching the Vehicles or Starships chapters, you can sense a disturbance in this farce. It probably works like D&D aerial combat by creatures with less than perfect manuverability. Which means, of course, that it doesn't work. Introducing facing and minimum forward speed twenty pages after the combat chapter is not a good idea. The target audience for Star Wars and the target audience for Star Fleet Battles are not necessarily the same.

339-357=Good stuff.
Those pages feature 30 archtypes, from fallen Jedi to Stormtroopers, bounty hunters to crime lords, with low, mid, and high level examples statted out and ready to run.

[MrWaeseL]

When approaching the Vehicles or Starships chapters, you can sense a disturbance in this farce.

[PhoneLobster]

I find myself wanting to add a little to sir neils summary of classes. (also I've got a feeling he is working from the unrevised eddition, though I am unfamiliar with the exact differences if any)

The Noble. Actually gets two "good" tricks (well not that good, but...)

1) They can sit over someones shoulder and give improved assist another skill bonuses outside of combat, in other words if you have an NPC skill monkey of any form you also want an NPC back seat driver to help them, it will somewhat decrease those ridiculous item creation times for your star destroyer +2.

2) They get free money/gear that they are allowed to keep or sell. I figured this out and I think at level 10 it was something like 1 or 2 brand new blaster rifles a day, which if sold at full price (why not, they weren't even taken out of the box) means that at the end of the month the noble can get a free brand new tie fighter (or two used tie fighters and a 10 000 credit bonus). This ability can also basically make crafting items with the tech specialist free, meaning anyone dumb enough to be a tech specialist but smart enough to do it "right" will definitely always team up with someone who was dumb enough to be a noble but smart enough to realise the only contribution they can make to the party is to help craft +3 light sabers for the jedi to use.

The Tech Specialist. I need to point out even more how much this sucker sucks.

He gets the worst saves in the game, the worst VP in the game, the worst BAB in the game, (nearly) the worst defense bonus in the game, the worst weapon profs in the game (he can hit things with a hammer by the looks of it, unless he is an ewok, thats about it). They even get bad skill points and a narrow class skill list! But most notably he then balances all that out with the worst class abilities in the game. (which is saying a lot believe me)

Most of his class abilities are a variety of dumb skill bonus things we don't overly want to know about though they do "help" with his main shtick which is making items. Thing is his items are not anything special until at least level 4 when he gets his first "good" tech specialty class ability. He only EVER gets six of these at 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 16th, and 19th level (his cap stone 20th level ability is his 4th +2 skill bonus instead).

So anyway each of these tech specialty things can be spent on one of several fields each time getting +1 to that field, and yes to get any single field to its max +3 you actually need to spend 3 of your precious six slots.

So what are these crash hot fields, well one is a bonus to the skill Computer Use (yay), another a bonus to the skill Treat Injury, you can also get a bonus to your use of the surgery skill that is actually (fractionally, very fractionally) more exciting than a flat (very flat) skill bonus... but its not that good.

No the only thing a sane tech specialist (if they exist) spends his limited tech speciality abilities on is Master Crafting. Allowing him to make +1 items at level 4, +2 at level 8 and +3 at level 11. That is of ONE item type only such as say, blaster pistols (but NOT rifles or heavy weapons), or light sabers (but NOT vibra blades, blasters, slug throwers or primitive weapons), so basically every tech specialist is a narrow special item creator who can only do TWO narrow categories of quality objects by level 19.

Interestingly master crafting can actually replace the usefulness of 2 out of 3 of the other fields you can spend your tech specialties on. For instance instead of simply spending tech specialties on the computer use bonus you can be a master crafter of miscellaneous electronic items and craft +3 data pads (and other stuff) which should hopefully act as a +3 skill bonus (though it doesn't actually SAY that anywhere despite confirming that +3 datapads can exist...) you could ALSO share them with your superior companions or even sell them for money.

And remember now item crafting uses the utterly insane item crafting rules from standard d20, so it already sucks. It also sucks that making a master craft item is also at least a bit harder/longer because your daily item crafting check results are HALVED, your final "finish it off" DC is auto set to 20, but since you only ever really want to make items with a 20 DC (or higher) it actually is either no harder, or indeed often actually becomes EASIER to make a final check to craft a master work item! (the guys who wrote this class didn't even read the item creation rules did they?)

Still when you first get this suck ability at level 4 its going to be a struggle to produce these items in reasonable time frames, you will NEED your mon calamari racial skill bonuses, your suck skill bonus class abilities, your noble side kick on your shoulder, your additional tool expense for a craft skill bonus during creation and the works. But you certainly can crank that +1 light saber out at level 4, eventually (by the time you finish everyone else may be at level 5 already).

Oh and master work item creation costs XP as a percentage of item cost. So if anyone can even figure out what a +1 star destroyer does, or even cares when they realise how useless that bonus is going to be, it is going to cost astronomical XP expenditure to get it in the air, assuming the specialist EVER finishes crafting it.

And that master craft bonus IS rather useless, its a bit like a +1 to +3 item in D&D only less than half as good (+1 to +3 damage only for weapons, or any ONE already described value for anything else (I'd go with DC on grenades, but it still sucks), which means that technically many +3 misc items and the like probably don't really DO anything, or not much (hey my ridiculously expensive Com+3 has a range of 50+3 miles ...). And though it is possible to make +1,+2 or +3 droids it is at least mildly unclear what this means.) So yeah they aren't really THAT crash hot. Everyone wants master craft items because they ARE the best items, they just aren't that much better than the worst items.

BUT NOT ONLY THAT, you can actually just buy them at *2 base cost for +1 (pretty much freely) meaning only by level 8 when he can make +2 items is the tech specialist even making items the book says are not generally availble anyway, and EVEN THEN you can "sometimes" buy +2 and +3 items at *4 and *8 base cost respectively, or just find them on your dead enemies.

And for "sometimes" I would read in "when it wouldn't mean the GM is walking all over a player characters schtick" meaning having a player character tech specialist will likely result in LESS master craft items arriving in your hands LATER in the game. Meaning everyone should kill every PC or NPC tech specialist they encounter because even if they don't find a +3 light saber on the corpse they have probably just increased the odds of finding one on someone elses corpse.

So in summation tech specialists suck very, very, very hard indeed.

Those were the only two classes I really had anything REALLY important to add in the hating department.

[Sir Neil]

I wasn't clear on the Noble, PhoneLobster-- they are not only as weak as bards, they actually have the bardic inspiration abilities.

I saw the money, but didn't realize it was available daily, I thought it was a one-time bonus like the Vassal of Bahamut. Of course you STILL AREN'T A JEDI, but I agree that's a neat consolation prize for not BEING A JEDI.

I missed the Fringer (4) (it rhymes with Cringer, Prince Adam's sissy green tiger. Happenstance? Coincidence? No.)

Ranger hp & skills, bard BAB, and your favored enemy bonus applies to Repair tjecks no I'm NOT kidding.

Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed, Wizards. When I get back from work, I'll explain the Starships chapter. The more I describe your rules, the more sales will slip through your fingers.

[PhoneLobster]

I wasn't clear on the Noble, PhoneLobster-- they are not only as weak as bards, they actually have the bardic inspiration abilities.

Now I'm chronically allergic to bards, not only because they are crap but because I dislike the concept of a character class that turns D&D into a very tacky musical. So maybe I'm wrong on the bard side of this comparison...

But I think you will find the noble does not precisely get the bardic inspiration abilities. Instead they get bardic inspiration abilities THAT THEY CAN NEVER APPLY TO THEMSELVES. (some of those bardic inspires do or can apply to self don't they? Well the nobles versions DON'T).

And just in case, as I understand it the star ship rules were supposedly rewritten from scratch in the revised edition, just incase theres any versioning confusion going on (I've heard no mention of class based defense bonuses from sir neil so he may be working from the unrevised edition)

And on that side note its worth mentioning that the class based defense bonuses are INSANE. There are no standard progessions or patterns to the progressions to the slowly growing defense bonuses your class levels grant you, and also good/bad defense progressions are NOT used to balance bad saves, BABs, VP or class abilities, since the WORST classes in the game in those respects get some of the worst defense progressions while the best classes, jedi guardian and (second rate alternative) the soldier with the best babs, good saves, best VP, reasonable class abilities etc... get the very best defense progressions!

Just another nail in the coffin of hate worth mentioning.

[Sir Neil]

But I think you will find the noble does not precisely get the bardic inspiration abilities.

Well, they had to nerf them. Bards are overpowered.

(Sir Neil is, in fact, working from the Revised Core Rules. The cover features Padme's ripped shirt and Lil' Orphan Ani's maniacal stare.)

I'm leaving out a lot of things, since it isn't Open Content. (Open Casket?)

Chapter 11 (bankrupcy) Starships: Unlike Sex, It's Better Without a Partner.

Did you notice in the dogfights in A New Hope that whoever had the most ships lost? That is faithfully reproduced in the RCR. If anyone offers to be your ace pilot's wingman, kill them immediately, because all Piloting and initiative checks for starship wings are based on the worst pilot.

For identical NPCs, of course, the added to-hit (+1/ship) and damage (for every 3 you hit the AC by, 1 more weapon hits) bonuses from clumping together is great.

There's a two-page spread about what crewmembers on large ships can do during combat. It's good, especially if you're playing Star Trek d20.

Oh, I'd forgotten, they use the metric system, while D&D uses imperial, so halflings and dwarves are faster than ewoks, and half-orcs and elves are faster than wookies; Star Wars characters will be run down like sheep by the D&D characters.

[PhoneLobster]

I've been looking and I've found even more stupid hate for yah.

Force skills suck and are all over the place, most force using characters don't get all of them as class skills until 4th level or later thanks to the (basically just annoying) "force training" feats. Not only that they cost you hit points to use, all sorts of random crazy hit points, up to like 40, or even more for some (not THAT crash hot) uses.

But that doesn't matter because you only really want two or three of them, pretty much all of which are on the "control" list meaning that as long as you aren't dumb enough to take any force training other than control you have access to almost all the good ones at 1st level, and coincidentally these "good" ones (mostly some simple self buffs) are fairly cheap VP cost wise in comparison to the crap ones (like force lightning or the inexplicably dumb force strike).

Also interesting is that a few of the better force skills are keyed off of Con. Which is great because I've just decided that my hypothetical jedi guardians best attribute MUST be Con. Why? 1) Piles and piles of VP to soak up hits and spend on force skills. 2) adds bonus to some force skills 3) improved wound points mean I may not die due to a single lucky critical hit. 4) Adds to fort save...

Wait, why is 4 so good? Why because of THE BEST FEAT IN THE GAME! (available only to force users of course) Now jedi are tough, jedi are cool, blaster bolts may well not hit them at all thanks to their best defense bonus and various light saber related deflection bonuses (heck they can bounce them back at their enemies). BUT after 6th level or so a Jedi basically stops trying to dodge blaster bolts because of this feat.

So the benefit of the feat is whenever you take energy damage (all blaster bolts, thermal detonators and stun grenades, not to mention the useless force lightning, and who knows what else). You get to make a fort save and if you beat the damage you don't get hurt, in fact you get HEALED by half the damage!!!

The only requirements to take this feat is four levels in any force class and two feats which you will automatically have by the time you have four levels in a force class anyway by virtue of class abilities that give them to you by then. Of course you then don't get a feat you can spend on it till 6th level...

So how goods your fort save going to be and how big is the damage you save against going to be. Well most blaster bolts will be around 3d8 damage (averaging what? 14 or so points usually) it can be worse but so what, by 6th level your fort save (which is good progression of course unless you made a VERY bad class decision) is at +5, you may as well have a very high cons score for many good reasons (especially this) so thats anything up to another +4 from cons, personally I'd consider building my character around this feat so thats another +2 racial (which with the right race choice also happens to net me +2 will and a nobbly forehead) and +2 from great fortitude. So by the time I get this feat I'm rolling saves against an average 14 damage with a +13 bonus... and thats not counting using force powers that soup up my cons by anything up to 8 points or who knows what else. I'm already in with a good chance at saving against the artillery level blaster bolts from heavy blaster weapons and another level or two (or other cons boosts) and I'm in with a small chance at saving against the average thermal detonator blast.