Is a "Vagabond" fighting system possible?

[Judging__Eagle]

I've been reading a lot of the manga Vagabond online, and I actually recall picking up a copy of one of it's issues on a library bookshelf years ago.

The semi-fictional semi-historical series focuses on the life of Shinmen Takezo, aka, Miyamoto Musashi (author of the book of 5 rings, probably one of the more vauge books on strategy and tactics).

The fights are interesting, however making a system that allows the emulation of these fights is probably a bit more tricky.

The basic ideas that I want are:

-Single weapon attacks can end a target's life (a Killing Blow).

-Normal Attacks can be turned into Killing Blows, they deal no damage, but are a SoD that 1) can be Fort/Ref or Will save and 2) Scale with character level

-Yes, that means an arrow can kill a man. Oh, wait that's possible for reals. I'll probably have ranged take more time? That makes sense.

-Characters can take risks to increase the efficiency of their ability to end life (either more successful attack rolls, or more powerful Killing Blows)

-Two Hand Fighting has a massively noticable benefit (a massive boost to the DC); but 2-Weapon Fighting has a pretty noticable effect (double the number of attacks per round).

-I don't want characters uber stacking any one stat; so.. average of physical and average of mental...[Edit: i should do average of stats and be done with it. If you notice any parts that have the old Physical/Mental pairs of stats, ignore those parts.]

Probably something that has some of the following:

-The on allowing "The Edge" to have scaling bonuses, climbing to such regions where a large enough difference defeats an enemy without needing to actually attack (note, doesn't necessarily kill, but the weaker fighter instantly realizes "Oh. You would have gutted me if you had been using a sword, and not a stick")

-Battles being able to last very short, or very long

-Being able to assess an enemy and determine what will happen, and what to do yourself (something along the lines of being able to use Expertise even when you haven't attacked yet in a fight, or just turn on Expertise at any moment vs. weaker enemies)

-Non-armoured combatants being considered very scary

-Allow a more "general" sundering system that is applicable to any part of a creature, from their carried weapon, to their eye(s), hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) etc.. Being able to go around chopping people from shoulder to waist would be something that I'd like (but wouldn't be easy)

-Something that takes exhaustion into account.



This idea came to me while writing some of the above notes:

Something that uses a pool of "stamina" or "resolve" points that are spent to perform actions, like crippling an enemy, or disarming them, or seeing through them, or perform extra damaging attacks.

"Stamina"/"Resolve" are refreshed based on either your rage or your wisdom.

Rage =/= Wisdom in terms of their benefits and returns on investment.

Rage and Wisdom probably cost the same to increase.

Rage gives more to your stamina/resolve pool; but has a hard cap on number of uses per encounter and a hard cap on how big your Rage can be. Wisdom would give less when used to recharge, but would have no cap or limit on number of uses, nor would it have a max cap on how high it can be.

I'm guessing that... something with 4 different resource pools would be used (at the least).

One for "swordsmanship" (aka, attack bonus)
One for "stamina/resolve" (aka, special ability use pool; also life pool)
One for "Rage" (high return of special ability/life pool, limited use, limited amout recharge ability)
One for "Wisdom" (moderate return of special ability/life pool, unlimited use, unlimited cap).

Survivability goes all over the place; with single "human" characters being able to fight 70 enemies either almost non-stop or even in groups at once. Or two characters mortally crippling each other.

Of course, at the end of a massive encounter, the single character who fought 70 swordsmen may be crippled for life, or near dying; or both.

I'm not sure if I can link to what I'm talking about; I found it by looking up "Vagabond manga online" via google; I hope that doesn't count as linking to an illegal site.

I'm not sure if that's enough info, or if I'm going in the right direction with this.

[Judging__Eagle]

old idea

Warrior Saint

"He killed me with a back scratcher while he was asleep! I have so much to learn from that old man."

In some parts of the world the way of the warrior is considered highly honourable, highly glamorous and highly ascetic. Of course, the costs for following this path can be very high. Permanent injury, being maimed, scars, living in a state of near constant alertness, strained or restricted communication with others and death are possible costs.

However, people are willing to walk this path. Fame, fortune or personal strength are some of the main reasons that this path is walked, so people from all walks of life who are not happy with their lot in life take this path.

Being a warrior saint is an option for nearly any character, characters that actually are martial characters have the furthest possible potential as sword saints, however that doesn't prevent less martial characters from being interested in the path of the warrior saint.

Warrior Saints are concerned with 4 abilities, all of which are derived directly from their current stats.

Swordsmanship Score: Skills combined with Practice, Training and Experience determines a Warrior Saint's Swordsmanship Score. This is equal to a character's Base Attack Bonus.

Rage: A warrior's bloodthirst and raw aggression can be used to fuel their martial ability. Warrior Saints have a Rage score equal to their Strength and their Base Attack Bonus.

As a standard action, a character can add an amount to their Stamina/Resolve pool by a value equal to their Base Attack Bonus plus their Highest Physical ability modifier. A Warrior Saint may only use their Rage Score once per every 5 Points of BAB (rounded up) per day.

Insight:Warrior Saints have an Insight Score equal to double their Base Attack Bonus or double their Highest Mental attribute modifer; whichever is lower.

As a swift action, a Warrior Saint may add their Insight score to their Resolve Pool. This may not be done in any round that a Warrior Saint has used their Rage to add to their Resolve Pool. A Warrior Saint may use this ability a number of times per encounter equal to their Highest Mental Score Modifier, and their Base Attack Bonus combined.

Becoming a Warrior Saint: Anyone can become a Warrior Saint, and in fact many people at the very bottom of a societies social strata become Warrior Saints. However, there are certain associated risks and costs.

Reputation Score: When meeting other Warrior Saints, or at least people interested in Warrior Saints, your diplomacy rating is based on the Warrior Saint's Reputation Score compared to how high it compares to the CR of the creature you are facing.

Calculating Reputaton score is based on the following formula:
A character's Reputation Score is made up of two values, a maximum and a minum.

A character's Reputation Score is based on encounters that they have been in.

A character's Reputation Score is the highest of one of three possible values:

Highest Encounter Faced: The highest EL encounter they have fought any not died nor other wise lost against. Defeating your enemy, but then falling unconscious counts

Highest Encounter Defeated: equal the highest EL encounter they have faced and won +1.

Highest Encounter Lost: Equal to the highest EL encounter that the character has either lost, died (and ressurected or not), or run away from subtracted by 5.

For example, Miyamoto Musahi has faced and lost to Inshun, child prodigy and 2nd generation master of the Honzoin Spear-fighting Dojo, a EL 10 encounter. Musashi's Maximum Reputation Score is now 5 (The EL of the encounter that he faced and survived -5).

Later, Miyamoto faces Inshun a second time and defeats him but is rendered unconsious at the end of the fight. Musashi's Maximum Reputation Score is now 10 (The EL of the encounter that he faced and survived).

When Musashi encounters Yagyū Sekishūsai, the 2nd generation master of the Yagyu clan, he is defeated by Sekishūsai, a CR 18 encounter. Now Musashi's minimum reputation score is 13 (the EL of the encounter he was defeated by -5).

Later Musashi is faced with fighting the remaining 70 members of the Yoshioka School of sword fighting (after defeating and killing both their master and their 2nd place fighter). This is an EL 14 Encounter (6 CR 8 Creatures, 7 lvl 4, 19 lvl 2 and 38 lvl 1 creatures). He now has a Reputation score of 15 (the EL of the encounter that he beat +1).

[uhhh.... reputation is a bit too complex, for now; maybe only one score, but it's based on whatever gives you the highest possible socre you can get, either the biggest thing that you've beaten, faced or lost to determines your rep score, edit, put that in now]


Stamina (or) Resolve pool: A Warrior Saint has a Resolve Pool equal to their Base Attack Bonus, Plus the modifer of one (usually their highest) Physical Ability Score, the modifier of one (usually their highest) Mental Ability Score and one half their Reputation Score.

Using special Warrior Saint abilites consumes Resolve Pool points. If a character's Resolve Pool becomes 0 or negative the character cannot use Sword Saint abilities, and is considered staggered (as if they had 0 HP).

If a character's Resolve Pool is below 0 at the end of two consecutive rounds, they fall unconscious. If injured, the character also begins to bleed out as if they had been reduced to -1 HP via Hit Point Damage.


===================


Or....

[Judging__Eagle]

Just create a feat:

The way of the warrior

You kill people. Sometimes faster than should be possible.

Your attacks are instantly killing blows.

Killing Blow: Instead of dealing weapon damage, the character deals a Killing Blow. Your target must make a saving throw of your choice (Fortitude, Reflex or Will) against a DC that is equal to the sum of: 5+ Your Base Attack Bonus, the average of all of the character's abiltiy modifer scores (rounded up).

Using more than hand to wield a weapon that deals this ability increases the DC by 10 per hand past the first used on a weapon, while using multiple weapons would obviously grant more attacks. Mariliths that wield a single sword or six or anything in between are all possible.

Insightful Warrior

You see through your enemies; their abilites pose no barrier to your killing blows

When using your Warrior Saint ability creatures may not use their ability score modifiers to their saving throws.

Reckless Warrior

You don't give a damn

On any attack that you make, you may apply a penalty to your armour class up to your base attack bonus, and gain a bonus to your attack rolls until the begining of your next round. This ability may not be used in any round where Expertise has been used, nor may Expertise be used while this ability is affected the character.

Brutal Warrior

You sacrifice your flesh in order to break other's bones

On any attack that you make, you may provoke an attack of opportunity in order to gain a bonus to attack rolls equal to your Base Attack Bonus. This ability may not be used in any round where Expertise has been used, nor may Expertise be used while this ability is affected the character.

Furious Warrior

You are full of bloodthirst

When using your Killing Blow ability you may apply a penalty to your Attack Roll up to your base attack bonus, and gain a bonus to the DCs of your Killing Blow ability.

Genius Warrior

Pre-reqs.... (this needs some)

You have no idea that limitations exist

You are immune to all mind-affecting abilities, Save or Die abilities only lower you to 0 hit points if you fail the saving throw. You may make a saving throw against Illusions that they are observing once per round (instead of interacting, once per round).

You are also likewise compelled as if affected by True Domination to fight against any current enemy that is of a at least within 1 CR of your own that wishes to fight you (example: If you are CR 10, you will never leave any EL 9-11 encounters that wish to fight you, and will fight them if the opportunity presents itself

Warrior Saint

You are a saint of war

You may use your Killing Blow ability at any creature that you can make eye contact with or Close range. You may do this once per round as a non-action, and this ability does not require the character to be awake.

Creatures affected by this modified Killing Blow ability are not killed if they fail their saving throw, and instead are Stunned for one round.

Wise Warrior

You kill your enemies before they can attack you

Enemies with a charisma score may not attack you unless their own Killing Blow DC is equivalent to your own, or greater. Instead they stand in place and realize that you could have killed them. They may not approach within Close (25+ 5' per 2 character levels), unless you allow an individual creature to do so.

Often this ability is used to weed out sub-par challengers by powerful Warriors, sometimes telling them to duel each other until the survivor will fight the master, or simply making them leave the fight peacefully.

Flow like the river

The Warrior Stops thinking and become the river between the rocks.

The character may add their Killing Blow DC as a Deflection Bonus to AC so long as they make no more than one attack action (ex. Weapon Attack or Killing Blow) that round.

========

None of these abilites need to have mroe bonuses IMO as most of them give scaling bonuses, or apply to the Killing Blows ability which is a scaling ability and thus also scale, and can work in conjuncture with each other (adding more numbers and option instantly).

... I think that Flow Like the River is an awesome tanking ability.

Looking at this again I'm realizing that at level 1 a character with 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 has :
-A Base Value of 5 [Edit: 10]
-A BaB of probably +1
-An average Phys score modifiers of +2 (15 (+2), 14 (+2), 13(+1); 5/3 = 2.something => 2)
-An average Mental modifier of +1 (12, 13, 8 are +1, +1, -1; or 2/3 => 1).
For a total of ... a DC of 8. [Edit: Yep, better with DC 10; this DC is now 13 at level 1; a 2H-Fighter has a huge DC (23) b/c they add an extra hand to their attacks, but the 2W-Fighter has 2 DC 13 attacks.]

Not impressive. >_> I'm guessing Base 10 might be better. [Edit: and it is].

at say, level 10 the ability could look like:
-base 5 [Edit: 10]
-BaB = +10
-Str, Dex, Con are say... 17, 14, 16; so +3, +2, +3 = 8/3 = 2.something=>+3
-Int, Wis, Cha say... 13, 12, 12 = +1, +1, +1... =>+1
Total 5 + 10 + 3 + 1 = 19....
Base 10 + 10 + 3 + 1 = DC 24 at level 10, that's acceptably powerful.


About the "rocket launcher tag" uh... that's the point. Swordfigthing in Japan was hyper-focused on speed of charge, speed of sword strike, speed, speed, speed. Some people had swords that moved so fast that people might not even see them well enough to dodge. Also, simply turning weapon attacks into SoDs seems to make more sense[/b]

[Judging__Eagle]

So, just some questions:

Is giving out a scaling weapon-tied SoD a good idea?

(I have to put in some rules on ranged vs. melee, but so far I like what I've put up).

Some of the other feats are... wierd.

I was also thinking about classifying the feats into [path], [aggressive], [passive] and [neutral] and then tally up types of feats in order to give different bonuses. As well as making it possible for a character to change between being an "aggressive" or "passive" character.

[TavishArtair]

Man, there was an interesting RPG I heard about that pretty much covered this situation, focusing on samurai swordfights. Unfortunately it's in Japanese and I don't have a copy, so I couldn't even begin picking it apart.

It was 幕末霊異伝 MI・BU・RO (Bakumatsu Ryoiden MI BU RO)

On second look, it seems it might be a little bit more fantastically informed than you want, since there are actual bakemono running around, and some secret techniques which may or may not be too over the top. Not sure.

[Judging__Eagle]

Hmm, that's pretty cool.

I wonder how fights went, and how balanced they were.

Well, I found this out:

It's probably not a really good translation but it should serve the purpose (I'm not an English native speaker...). Especially the feature list is hard for me to translate:


The introduction of a new title to open up the eyes of the fans. This game isn’t simple the next instalment of the “Tale of Wonders of the Warring States” (戦国霊異伝), it’s rather a whole new game, fulfilling the call of the deeply rooted fans for a new work of the famous/excellent “Tale of Wonders of the Warring States”. Unfortunately the original producer Kirameki isn’t anymore. Therefore, based on the idea of producing Kirameki’s Bakumatsu-Edition [bakumatsu = the final period of the last shogunat], the office of TEAS designed and realized a construction of a new setting and system, easier to play, completing an even more captivating product. The battle of humans and monster/ghosts [yôkai] continues in a Japan, shaken by the turmoil of the bakumatsu period ---.

Introduction of features of “Bakumatsu rei-den Mi-Bu-Ro”:

* a revolutionary resolution system: Dice-rolls well reflecting swordfights with its deadliness [hard to translate].

* Hero points and points for special maneuvers/skills/attack, introduction of the “Nin-, Life- and Wolf-Gauges”: the “Nin-Gauge” expressing the sense of duty; the “Life-Gauge”: proof of handling life-threatening situations, walking the line between life and death; the “Wolf-Gauge”, representing the will to kill, all to liven up the fights and roleplay. [*arghhh*]

* Implementation of party-shared “Fate”-points, allowing to escape death: managed by the GM, basically so that the they are kept hidden from the players, allowing the player to enjoy thrilling fights by having both heroism and a chance of survival.

* Battle system: not the normal flow of hitting and evading, but the outcome decided by the clashing and crumbling of stances, reflecting the realistic swordplay. The ability to reflect battles that capture life in the middle of battles stages where death is more than just a possibility.

* The many school-specific special techniques (“secret techniques”), and techniques that supplement these, produce adventurous battles in the bakumatsu period that exceed the historical facts.

http://j-rpg.com/talk/comments.php?DiscussionID=6

from this discussion group page:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:enk ... =firefox-a

[Bigode]

A) the feats as-are mean you kill everyone, always.

B) GURPS (and yes, 4E > 3E) fulfills at least most of your demands - it's not "one system for all games", but it's what I'd recommend to anyone wanting things to be detailed and realistically-scaled.

[Judging__Eagle]

A) the feats as-are mean you kill everyone, always.

B) GURPS (and yes, 4E > 3E) fulfills at least most of your demands - it's not "one system for all games", but it's what I'd recommend to anyone wanting things to be detailed and realistically-scaled.

Yeah... but, that's pretty much what happens.

Someone dies unless the person that won the fight decides to not actually kill their target.

I can count the number of times that someone doesn't die in a lethal fight in Vagabond much easier than I can count how many people do die. Mostly because it happens a lot less often. The entire series is as much about the spiral of death and killing that the characters in this story have descended into, as it is about their seeking a way to gain mastery in killing.

[Bigode]

Yeah... but, that's pretty much what happens.

Someone dies unless the person that won the fight decides to not actually kill their target.

Sorry, I meant "every single one of your hits' an automatic instant kill with the numbers used", not just high lethality in the sense of "combats end with people dead".

[Judging__Eagle]

Yeah, that's what I meant too.

People die in 6 seconds or less.

That's why I went for a SoD route rather than a massive damage route.

What Frank mentioned long, long, ago about how a lvl 1 fighter has a SoD called "Greatsword 2d6+6 damage vs. Your HP" (where "You HP" is 10 at the most) is what got me thinking that SoDs were the way to go.

[Bigode]

Level 1 is an aberration. There are many levels where warriors kill people with 1 full attack, and there are many levels where spellcasters can kill multiple people with a single standard action, but those aren't guaranteed.

What your stuff gives us' that, with 24-point buy and regular enhancement and inherent bonuses, the base DC is 31. Given that the opponent won't apply an ability score, it's pretty much just HD; let's assume you can't even pick the correct save, for example because it's a fvcking red great wyrm: we're talking [whatever] +22 for its 40 HD (let's not forget, BTW, that it's nominal CR's 26, and the dragons who actually fit level 20 might be as much as 10 nominal CRs lower). So, we're talking needing >8 here, right? Things to consider: a mature adult's real CR's epic already and it'd have only +14 (needs >16); you can restrict even the great wyrm to >18 by using an extra hand (and you can still dual-wield with Extra Arms - in fact, you mention a marilith as example) and shoot the mature adult off even assuming +6 in extra bonuses (that is, greater resistance IIRC - remember ability score bonuses won't apply); and, of course, by either lowering AC or taking AoOs (and you've enough feats to choose the best method for each situation), you can pull +20 DC, or just enough to push off if you might need AC. Combine with Whirlwind, and recall you're not prevented from dual-wielding, and you auto-kill anything instantly.

[Roy]

What's this shit about dragons being 10 levels higher? Higher is nothing new, but 10 levels higher? What the fuckity fuckstar?

[Bigode]

What's this shit about dragons being 10 levels higher? Higher is nothing new, but 10 levels higher? What the fuckity fuckstar?

Eh, maybe it could use better phrasing, but it's right: the great wyrm's (nominal, I don't even dare trying to establish real CR for an epic monster that supposedly TPKs a level 20 party - yeah, I know it likely doesn't) CR (it being the one used as main example) is, by being 26, 10 points higher than that of a dragon whose real CR's 20 (i.e. nominal CR 16).

[Roy]

You do realize that if dragon's real CR is 4 points higher, it means they are four times stronger than they're supposed to be right?

Something like... +25-33% I can see. +300%? What the fuckity fuckstar?

[Bigode]

Childishly repeating the same expression isn't doing much good. Who's talking about +25%?

[Roy]

Childishly repeating the same expression isn't doing much good. Who's talking about +25%?

+25% is more like the actual power difference between a dragon of CR x (pick an integer) and a non dragon of CR x. Your claim that dragons are 4 levels higher than the books says they are means you are claiming that they are +300%. That is fucking ridiculous. Even the 25% is questionable, as really the only edge they have over an Outsider of the same level is a better auto attack... who is using auto attacks when they can spam save or dies, again?

[Bigode]

+25% is more like the actual power difference between a dragon of CR x (pick an integer) and a non dragon of CR x. Your claim that dragons are 4 levels higher than the books says they are means you are claiming that they are +300%. That is fucking ridiculous. Even the 25% is questionable, as really the only edge they have over an Outsider of the same level is a better auto attack... who is using auto attacks when they can spam save or dies, again?

OK, now we've something debatable. Yeah, I claimed more or less that - with both WotC (seriously, they said it) and TGD as sources, I did say I think dragons are like PCs 4 levels better. But I don't believe CR+4 actually translates into +300% power - I don't think CR math works as advertised. As for outsiders, yeah, dragons are just a bit better than a good deal of them, but that's because indeed many outsiders are pretty ridiculous too - for example, the old claim of celestials having the awesome subtype (lantern archon, whee).

[Roy]

+25% is more like the actual power difference between a dragon of CR x (pick an integer) and a non dragon of CR x. Your claim that dragons are 4 levels higher than the books says they are means you are claiming that they are +300%. That is fucking ridiculous. Even the 25% is questionable, as really the only edge they have over an Outsider of the same level is a better auto attack... who is using auto attacks when they can spam save or dies, again?

OK, now we've something debatable. Yeah, I claimed more or less that - with both WotC (seriously, they said it) and TGD as sources, I did say I think dragons are like PCs 4 levels better. But I don't believe CR+4 actually translates into +300% power - I don't think CR math works as advertised. As for outsiders, yeah, dragons are just a bit better than a good deal of them, but that's because indeed many outsiders are pretty ridiculous too - for example, the old claim of celestials having the awesome subtype (lantern archon, whee).

Link please.

Regarding the CR math: We know. But as long as we're arguing intent, and WotC they said that too. Each doubling of numbers or level = CR + 2.

As for Outsiders, they're ok, but many of them are inferior to NPC casters. That makes them decent at best. And since caster is their main role due to Action Economy...

[Bigode]

Link please.

Eh, it's been years. They said they made dragon encounters as if a dragon was "a solo"; that's +4 CR.

Regarding the CR math: We know.

Strangely enough, I've seen people argue it seriously even here.

But as long as we're arguing intent, and WotC they said that too. Each doubling of numbers or level = CR + 2.

Doesn't matter in the original context - was just illustrating the expected real CR 20 dragon being made a joke (and even the nominal CR 26 would, so ...).

As for Outsiders, they're ok, but many of them are inferior to NPC casters. That makes them decent at best. And since caster is their main role due to Action Economy...

Mostly it's celestials, but some other retards with lopsided Sp lists count too - not all.

[Roy]

I have heard they made dragons a little harder intentionally, but it was hardly +4, and the reason given was basically Color Coded for your Convenience. In other words, they expect the party to be resistant/immune to its breath, and primary spells, cutting off most of its options because it isn't just a random encounter - you're always warned.

[Judging__Eagle]

[note: I'm talking about Tome races and feats and systems, plus some additional TGD materal that has been created when I'm talking here about stat choices]

24 pt. buy is... about a +1 modifier, since it's averaged stats.

+5 base

+1 BaB

so, a DC 1 + 1 + 5 = DC 7, if you wield with two hands, that's +10. So you could have a DC 17 attack at level 1. I don't see that as being too bad, for 24 buy a wizard can get DCs of 10 + spell level + ability score modifer (10 + Sleep (lv1) + 3 = DC 14).

Ok, so at level 1 it's a bit higher than a wizard's DC.

Lets check at say.... level... 14? Wizards can get int in about... 20-something? 25? 28? by level 14, with a starting int of 16. So, level 7 spells, and a +7 to +9 modifier is spells with a DC of 24 to 29.

Now, this is a lower than optimal DC, and many DC-based spellcasters will try to beef up their DCs as much as possible, and as early as possible. Really, the int scores can be in as high as the mid 20's by level 10, and as much as 28-30 by level 14. Usually this is done by selecting races with racial adjustments to the desired stat, so a Grey Elf (-2 str, -2 con, +2 dex, +2 Int; plus other Elf things).

These higher DC-boosting ability scores, plus feats, class features, items, and other things to boost spell DCs can push the DC of a character's spells by a lot more. In one game

The level 14 fighter, could have an average, say, a 26 or a 28 (maybe?)[str or dex or int, depending on their to-hit stat], a 24 [con? or dex if they want AoOs or the ability to cleave]. Of course, I've also seen lvl 14 barbarians with str scores of 40, and a con of 30 (the average was 28/6 = +5).

Which would acheive a DC of 5 (base) + 14 (BaB) + 5 (Average of all stat mods, rounded up = 15 - 1 + 10 + 3 -1 -1 = 25 /6 =~ 5) is a DC of 24. Now, that's not bad, but if they want to use a 2-handed weapon, then the DC will go up by 10 points. So, a DC of 34.

While a spell caster can get DCs of 26 and 27.

The feat that removes ability scores from saves only applies to the feat that turns your Killing Blows into non-lethal effects.

IT should also be noted that these abilities apply to melee attacks; I'm not sure how to deal with ranged attacks. Probably make them have use BaB + Averaged Stats; or basically 5 points less than a melee attacks DC for the Killing Blow would be.

So, a Long Bow's Killing Blow DC would be 29 (36 - 5); compared to a spell casters 26-27. It's a bit strong, but I've seriously seen 40-odd HD elder elementals at lvl 14 in a CO game. So the high DC still can take a while to kill the target.