Arguments in favor of 4th Edition

[RandomCasualty2]

RC, the complaint isn't that you can't sell gemstones that come in treasure piles, it's that you can't pick up gemstones that aren't in Treasure piles. You fight a githyanki warrior and he has a gem encrusted breastplate because that's awesome, but then when he's defeated there aren't any gemstones for you to pry out in his corpse treasure parcel.

Presumably if your DM wanted to give them a gem encrusted breastplate, then you should be able to sell it, because it's something valuable. But by default, githyanki don't have that.

Now if your DM chooses to give monsters gem encrusted breastplates and tells you that you can't sell them. That's just stupid, and he's a bad DM. It doesn't really have much to do with the 4E treasure system, only a stupid DM. A gemencrusted breastplate would at the very least qualify as gemstones, if not artwork, and those by 4E rules are sellable at full price. So if the DM says you can't sell gemstones, then he's not playing by the 4E rules.

That's the infuriating part. The part where the descriptions of things while you are fighting them are explicitly more valuable than the things you actually get once you defeat your enemies.

I'm not sure where you're getting the descriptions from, because 4E monsters don't even have a description line. So where they're getting the jewel encrusted breastplates is beyond me. The equipment line description just says "chain mail".

The silver sword is probably the only thing you can sell.

And it's completely unnecessary. If they are going to force you to collect money and run it through the sausage grinder just to keep from falling behind the curve, then they could make a world where money was actually hard to come by. Instead there are magic shops filled to the brim with every kind of jewel and magic blade your mind can imagine and you can't get them for no reason.

Again, not really sure where you're getting that you can't loot magic shops. You're using the treasure by level rules as some kind of super strict guideline, and pretty much I could make the same argument for 3.5 too (which also had WBL guidelines). If I can get more money in 3.5 by robbing a magic shop, I can do the exact same thing in 4E. I realize 4E has a lot of flavor from MMORPG setup, but there's nothing explicitly preventing you from robbing a magic shop.

At worst it means that you'd just have to take the magic item values and reverse engineer them into an encounter by using the Treasure parcel guidelines. So if you're getting a bunch of level 14 items, then it'd probably be around a level 13-16 encounter.

[Orion]

Roy, we're not "singling you out" because of a prejudice against you, we're "singling you out" because you don't make any fucking sense.

You speak "classic Den speak" in the sense that you've imitated *stylistically* some of the qualities of posters here -- we speak authoritatively, use profanity freely, and use a mix of internet-memes and self-generated catchphrases to lighten up complex explanations.

But all those things are *rhetorical tools* which are meant to be used to write *persuasively* to write *logical, productive works of game design and theory*.

You aren't doing that. You skip the having something to say and jump right to the cursing. You don't use memes to illuminate or adorn an argument, you use ti in place of an argument. If we removed all references to "Turtle Fail" "Murder Hobo" and "Paizil Fail" nothing would remain. That's what makes you different from more productive posters.

Also: Theory of Mind, motherfucker, I can has it? You have this thing where you don't seem to understand intuitively that other people are not you and do not have access to your thoughts. Besides the thing where you refer to arguments instead of making them, you also have a tendency to use memes that you made up as if they were part of our culture, or to use memes in ways which make sense only to you.

For instance, calling RC a 4.Failtard for advocating Magic Tea Party socializing. To be honest, D&D has long Magic Tea Partied these things, with the semi-exception of 3rd. Original D&D had a Charisma stat, but that was the extent of the "social system." This has nothing to do with 4th edition.

Finally, you're the only Den poster with the obsessive need to classify everyone as friends and foes based on some ideological orthodoxy, and quickly turn on someone and insult them as an outsider the first time you disagree about anything. The next closest person here to you in that regard is actually me. I get angry with someone sometimes to the point where I feel that they don't belong here, that they are not part of the community. The difference is that I don't do it because someone has the temerity to question my pronouncements about AC, I do it because is persistently and willfully offensive, disrespectful and unproductive.

Is this seems a little venemous, well, I've ben nursing a grudge since seeing you lay into poor Murtak (it was Murtak, right?) on the AC thread, something I want to get involved in but wasn't sure how. You do this all the time with the blithe assurance that you somehow speak for or represent the Den.

Fuck you, Roy. I share Trollman's firm belief that open communication and a focus on ideas rather than speaker sis to the good, but damn... if you're so intent on drawing lines between "us" and "them" -- I think you'd be surprised what line you fall on.

----










In closing, you should be in therapy if you aren't already. I don't mean this in a hostile way; it's in a very different spirit than the rest of the rant. Interpersonal therapy or whatever can help you develop your social skills is definitely the way to go here, assuming you *care* about getting along, or indeed being able to accomplish things in social environments like a message board. Failing that, at least pick up Seven Habits of Highly Effective People of something. Maybe some Education/Psych books too, on how to effectively communicate complicated, abstract ideas. Maybe some ethics too -- Aristotle's Ethics would actually be a great start.

[Fuchs]

My point is that there are a number of players who do not share your tastes, Roy. So, they find motivation and fun in things and systems and settings where you do not. Therefore your claim that by removing stuff you want "everyone" loses their motivation to play is wrong. Objectively wong even.

[Username17]

Anyway, on the Wealth = Power thing that 4e seems so enamored with, the one and only D&D setting where that would make any sense is Dark Sun. Because that's the only setting where everything took place in a gods forsaken sand desert and your enemies were naked save for an occasional sharpened rock and their own massive and unpredictable psychic powers.

But 4e D&D isn't supposed to be Athas. It's supposedly got this points of light thing going on where the stuff around you is growing and people are successfully mining, forging, growing, and weaving. The buildings around you aren't dung huts, they are made of brick and wood and painted with colored paint. Stuff around you has value. Value which should create entire sets of economic activity that are separate yet should nonetheless interact with the tiresome cycle of stabbing monsters and getting mysterious treasure parcels.

-Username17

[Anguirus]

Roy, we're not "singling you out" because of a prejudice against you, we're "singling you out" because you don't make any fucking sense.

You speak "classic Den speak" in the sense that you've imitated *stylistically* some of the qualities of posters here -- we speak authoritatively, use profanity freely, and use a mix of internet-memes and self-generated catchphrases to lighten up complex explanations.

But all those things are *rhetorical tools* which are meant to be used to write *persuasively* to write *logical, productive works of game design and theory*.

You aren't doing that. You skip the having something to say and jump right to the cursing. You don't use memes to illuminate or adorn an argument, you use ti in place of an argument. If we removed all references to "Turtle Fail" "Murder Hobo" and "Paizil Fail" nothing would remain. That's what makes you different from more productive posters.

Also: Theory of Mind, motherfucker, I can has it? You have this thing where you don't seem to understand intuitively that other people are not you and do not have access to your thoughts. Besides the thing where you refer to arguments instead of making them, you also have a tendency to use memes that you made up as if they were part of our culture, or to use memes in ways which make sense only to you.

For instance, calling RC a 4.Failtard for advocating Magic Tea Party socializing. To be honest, D&D has long Magic Tea Partied these things, with the semi-exception of 3rd. Original D&D had a Charisma stat, but that was the extent of the "social system." This has nothing to do with 4th edition.

Finally, you're the only Den poster with the obsessive need to classify everyone as friends and foes based on some ideological orthodoxy, and quickly turn on someone and insult them as an outsider the first time you disagree about anything. The next closest person here to you in that regard is actually me. I get angry with someone sometimes to the point where I feel that they don't belong here, that they are not part of the community. The difference is that I don't do it because someone has the temerity to question my pronouncements about AC, I do it because is persistently and willfully offensive, disrespectful and unproductive.

Is this seems a little venemous, well, I've ben nursing a grudge since seeing you lay into poor Murtak (it was Murtak, right?) on the AC thread, something I want to get involved in but wasn't sure how. You do this all the time with the blithe assurance that you somehow speak for or represent the Den.

Fuck you, Roy. I share Trollman's firm belief that open communication and a focus on ideas rather than speaker sis to the good, but damn... if you're so intent on drawing lines between "us" and "them" -- I think you'd be surprised what line you fall on.

----










In closing, you should be in therapy if you aren't already. I don't mean this in a hostile way; it's in a very different spirit than the rest of the rant. Interpersonal therapy or whatever can help you develop your social skills is definitely the way to go here, assuming you *care* about getting along, or indeed being able to accomplish things in social environments like a message board. Failing that, at least pick up Seven Habits of Highly Effective People of something. Maybe some Education/Psych books too, on how to effectively communicate complicated, abstract ideas. Maybe some ethics too -- Aristotle's Ethics would actually be a great start

.

Seconded

[MartinHarper]

No, they actually can't use Wizard implements. Because Wizard Implements only work for Wizards. Kobold Dragon Priests can't use an Orb of Imposition. They just can't. Or any other implement.

DMG page 217 has a sample encounter with a Kobold Wrympriest using a Staff of the Warmage to increase the size of his dragon breath attack. The PHB rules about what classes can use what items only apply to PCs.

[Roy]

Obvious Fail is Obvious.

Obvious Lies are Obvious.

Anything else you want to throw on the Fail bandwagon there? Or are you done?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Anything else you want to throw on the Fail bandwagon there? Or are you done?

I'm done trying to engage you. Does that count?

'bye.

[RandomCasualty2]

But 4e D&D isn't supposed to be Athas. It's supposedly got this points of light thing going on where the stuff around you is growing and people are successfully mining, forging, growing, and weaving. The buildings around you aren't dung huts, they are made of brick and wood and painted with colored paint. Stuff around you has value. Value which should create entire sets of economic activity that are separate yet should nonetheless interact with the tiresome cycle of stabbing monsters and getting mysterious treasure parcels.

OK. Now you're making a different argument. Before you said PCs couldn't pick up treasure.

Now you want PCs to be able to loot minor goods, like iron ingots, furniture, pickaxes and other minor shit like that. Then you want them to be able to get out a balance sheet and calculate the sale value of every ingot, cheap wooden chair and half burned curtain rod that they managed to take from the destroyed village.

And I'm saying, I really don't want that in a game.

I don't want PCs filling up portable holes with rusty daggers. It's a waste of my time. If you just want to call it a portable hole of "stuff" that's fine, but I don't want to account and look up the price of every pickaxe, floorboard and rusty iron nail. There is no way that should be the default system.

[Roy]

Anything else you want to throw on the Fail bandwagon there? Or are you done?

I'm done trying to engage you. Does that count?

'bye.

Cute. Especially since there's no 'Fail' about it.

In fact, nearly every other character has some significant item or items.

Driz'zt has Twinkle and Icingdeath, along with his armor.

Artemis has Charon's Claw, and some other stuff.

That fucker with the CE insane sword obviously has a CE insane sword. I forget his name.

Then don't fucking get me started on the fucking Lord of the Rings. As disconnected as it is from D&D despite allegedly being a derivative product, just about everyone there qualifies as well. The whole fucking story is centered around a significant item bestowed on an otherwise insignificant character, resulting in an odd variation of Artifact Sword Fix.

Also, I am still laughing at Boolean's Fail.

[Username17]

Now you want PCs to be able to loot minor goods, like iron ingots, furniture, pickaxes and other minor shit like that. Then you want them to be able to get out a balance sheet and calculate the sale value of every ingot, cheap wooden chair and half burned curtain rod that they managed to take from the destroyed village.

Uh... you are fucking right I do!

Look, if the game is going to have the hubris to tell me that my current wealth in copper pieces is going to have an explicit effect on whether I succeed or fail at further missions, then I want to be able to loot the chairs. The golden chairs. And the wooden chairs.

I'm fine with a game divorcing my pile of turnips from my pile of magic swords. That was K and my proposition if you'll recall. I'll even accept a game like Darksun in which we literally do loot everything and then transform it into the best equipment we can by cobbling it together. That's fine too.

What's not OK is the 4e compromise in which my character has their power set to the number of copper pieces they have yet owned and is nonetheless required to not take lesser and even major valuables out of the scenery for no reason. That is a verisimilitude breaking breach right there. If wealth is power and totally convertible all the way from copper pieces to godweapons the way it is in 4e, then I should have the option of looting things to the ground. 4e's bullshit handwaving where all the valuables just aren't accessible is totally unacceptable.

And you apologizing for it isn't acceptable either. It's counter immersive bullshit that makes sense only with video game logic. Call a spade a spade.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

And you apologizing for it isn't acceptable either. It's counter immersive bullshit that makes sense only with video game logic. Call a spade a spade.

Well no, not really.

First and foremost, we're simulating fantasy literature and movies. Fantasy heroes don't lug around cheap wooden chairs and steal curtains. They just don't.

Second, there's a good reason why characters wouldn't do that. Namely selling all that shit is a pain in the ass, both in and out of character. Your character will be walking the market for days looking for a buyer of a cheap wooden chair, and he ends up with just a handful of copper for his troubles. For a guy carrying a bag of tons of gold it's just not worth his time.

I mean there's a lot of shit lying around my room that I never use and could probably sell. I have stacks of 2nd edition "Complete X" handbooks that I am nearly positive I will never ever open, let alone use, again. But I don't bother selling it simply because it's a lot of work for very minimal profit, and i just don't need that $20-$50 that I could get off someone on ebay. The act of posting the ebay ad and mailing the books just isn't worth it to me.

I don't think it's at all unrealistic to expect a guy with a 10,000 gp sword to ignore minor piddly stuff. Because fuck that, he has better things to do than haggle with a trading post owner over the value of an orc's rusted chain shirt that survived a fireball mostly intact.

In fact, it breaks verisimilitude for me when some 5th level character is bothering to take the time looting trivial goods. It's like Bill Gates counting up pennies in a penny jar.

Looting everything is generally video game logic anyway, since it takes no time to click on the "loot everything" option and you have endlessly deep pockets. In real life, bringing all that shit back to your pack mule or even loading it into your portable hole takes real sweat and effort. And same with taking those goods down to the store to sell. There isn't one magic video game store that buys everything and never runs out of money. In fact, you're going to have to go to a bunch of shopkeepers or take a severely reduced value from some junk dealer to ever get that stuff sold. Most armorers just aren't going to be interested in a bunch of damaged goods.

The fact that PCs want to be able to load all that shit and sell it back at town without any problems is not what I would call immersive.

[Orion]

Most Fantasy heroes don't live in a world where arbitrary amounts of cash can buy arbitrary amounts of magic swords either.

[Fuchs]

Some parties also have henchmen/servants/mercenary NPCs to do the looting for them (among other things).

[Username17]

Most Fantasy heroes don't live in a world where arbitrary amounts of cash can buy arbitrary amounts of magic swords either.

This.

First and foremost, we're simulating fantasy literature and movies.

No we fucking aren't. The only thing D&D simulates is Dungeons and Dragons. Aragorn and Perrin can't go to a store and purchase a more powerful sword or axe. They can't do it. If they want a better weapon, they need to go questing for one. Also they have shit to do. So they don't loot the scenery for reasons coming and going. It would count against their clock, and it wouldn't get them better equipment that they could use to fight the dark lord.

If you wanted to simulate fantasy literature, you'd kick those magic item shoppes that 3e introduced right the fuck out. And then people would either loot things for the turnip economy or not depending upon their personal goals and time constraints.

But that's not what D&D is trying to emulate. It's trying to emulate Diablo. And they honestly think that the way 3rd edition went wrong with its economy is that it didn't stick to the Diablo 2 model closely enough. That's what's so pathetic here. They actually had a working model back in 2e and everything they've done since then has just fucked it up more and more.

I don't want PCs filling up portable holes with rusty daggers. It's a waste of my time. If you just want to call it a portable hole of "stuff" that's fine, but I don't want to account and look up the price of every pickaxe, floorboard and rusty iron nail. There is no way that should be the default system.

I actually agree with you here. But the problem is that as long as D&D insists on keeping the gold->magic thing, it fucking is the system. If you want players to stop looting the floorboards, get rid of the rules that reward looting the floorboards. Don't keep those shitty rules and add more rules that say you can't loot the floorboards for no reason.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

I realized some time ago that I use 3E rules, but a more 1E system, with gold and magic separated, and with PCs having lots of servants, mercenaries, guards and followers by thetime they reach level 10.

[Anguirus]

Also, since when does 'don't' mean 'can't'. If you think it is unrealistic for characters to spend all of that time and effort looting (which indeed it may be) then you up-play the reason that they wouldn't do that. What you don't do is tell them that they can't do it. There is a world there with rules that ought to be universal. If your world doesn't have universal rules then fuck your world. (Although you might say that no one can interact with the scenery for a variety of reasons...) If the fluff says that I can do something and the rules say I can't then we have a problem. If the fluff says that I shouldn't do something and the rules say that I should then we also have a problem but I don't know if the rules of 3E actually make looting everything the best option. Not if your DM stresses how some things are time sensitive and that you are wasting your effort. If your broader goals are undermined by looting everything (which indeed could happen in a game of 3E) then you shouldn't do it, even if you get another +1 for doing so.

[RandomCasualty2]

Some parties also have henchmen/servants/mercenary NPCs to do the looting for them (among other things).

In most cases, it's probably not even worth being a professional looter. I mean, the money you can make from that shit is probably not even worth the cost of labor to move it. The guy would be better off just being a scribe or a barmaid.

Unless the PC owned some kind of junkyard business and sold the stuff himself, it probably wouldn't be worth it. Even then, I just can't see such a business being all that profitable, and the value of the goods in the junkyard wouldn't be enough to warrant having guards. Which means that the necromancer that considered buying used swords and chainmail for his undead horde is just going to kill the level 1 warriors you have guarding the scrapyard and animate them for more skeletons and the weapons.

I actually agree with you here. But the problem is that as long as D&D insists on keeping the gold->magic thing, it fucking is the system. If you want players to stop looting the floorboards, get rid of the rules that reward looting the floorboards. Don't keep those shitty rules and add more rules that say you can't loot the floorboards for no reason.

Only it's honestly not cost effective to loot the floorboards. Rich heroes wouldn't bother doing it realistically and even with slave labor doing it, it's not even all that great as far as a profit engine. Just because you have 30 used swords doesn't mean you're going to find a buyer right away.

I don't really have a problem with 4E just using a default rule of "don't bother with that shit." It's actually slightly superior to the 3E "loot everything" system, because 4E is at least faster and gets something closer to fantasy hero behavior. It's not entirely logical to say that the goods are truly worth nothing, but given they take so long to sell and deal with, it's perfectly reasonable to say that the heroes just aren't going to bother taking them.

I mean lets be serious here, if you took a bunch of used floorboards out of some guy's house and went to a junk dealer, he's going to laugh in your face and tell you how much it'll cost for him to take it off your hands. We pay people to remove that trash, we don't actually look for someone to buy it.

[Anguirus]

It's not entirely logical to say that the goods are truly worth nothing, but given they take so long to sell and deal with, it's perfectly reasonable to say that the heroes just aren't going to bother taking them.

It isn't reasonable at all to say that. I get to decide what is reasonable for my character to do. Not the game.[/u][/i]

[Roy]

Most Fantasy heroes don't live in a world where arbitrary amounts of cash can buy arbitrary amounts of magic swords either.

LotR probably can't. All the D&D novel fucks? Unless this is yet another example of inaccuracy, yes they can. Of course, they only get away with not doing it because the author can fap whatever he wants onto the page, but there you go.

[RandomCasualty2]

It isn't reasonable at all to say that. I get to decide what is reasonable for my character to do. Not the game.[/u][/i]

Well yes and no. In this case, it's easy for you as a player to just say "we take all the floorboards and torchholders and curtains." but as a character, that's a shitload of deconstruction work for very little gain.

After you're all sweaty from a brutal battle for your life, its bad roleplaying to want to start spending the next 5 days tearing apart every peice of the goblin's crudely constructed huts to toss them into a wagon, and then spend the next 3 months walking about town trying to get a buyer for all that junk so you can eek out a profit of 50 copper peices by the end of it.

Now, for a player they just want to fast forward that shit, and it takes them all of 15 video game seconds to deal with that. But it's still horrible roleplaying, because the time and effort the character spends doing that just isn't even worth it. By the end of it, you're lucky if you've got enough to pay for food and lodging. So yeah, it's close to worthless.

I mean I'd let a player do it, but I wouldn't make it easy. They're not going to immediately find a buyer for all that junk. In fact most of it probably won't sell for the entire campaign, or some guy may offer you a copper for a bunch of bundles of broken floorboards as firewood. Otherwise you're going to have to look for places to offload 20 beat up rusty short swords, and that probably means you've got to go to a town that's going to be attacked shortly. If you want a detailed economy, then you get a detailed economy, not some video game general store that buys eveything you sell at half price automatically.

[Anguirus]

I mean I'd let a player do it, but I wouldn't make it easy. They're not going to immediately find a buyer for all that junk. In fact most of it probably won't sell for the entire campaign, or some guy may offer you a copper for a bunch of bundles of broken floorboards as firewood. Otherwise you're going to have to look for places to offload 20 beat up rusty short swords, and that probably means you've got to go to a town that's going to be attacked shortly. If you want a detailed economy, then you get a detailed economy, not some video game general store that buys eveything you sell at half price automatically.

So you aren't defending 4E's foolishness anymore?

[RandomCasualty2]

I mean I'd let a player do it, but I wouldn't make it easy. They're not going to immediately find a buyer for all that junk. In fact most of it probably won't sell for the entire campaign, or some guy may offer you a copper for a bunch of bundles of broken floorboards as firewood. Otherwise you're going to have to look for places to offload 20 beat up rusty short swords, and that probably means you've got to go to a town that's going to be attacked shortly. If you want a detailed economy, then you get a detailed economy, not some video game general store that buys eveything you sell at half price automatically.

So you aren't defending 4E's foolishness anymore?

Well no, I still am, because I like 4E as the default system. I like just saying the value of whatever shit you manage to haul off is just classified as "pile of junk" and not an itemized list that you can look up values of. What you get for that junk is just your DM's decision, and that's fine, because there are many economic factors that would determine how much cash you'd get.

For a casual game, the 4E system is fine. It solves the problem of getting the treasure whore PC who takes everything and wants to track it, and if the DM is inclined to go with a more advanced economy, nothing is stopping him.

[Parthenon]

Wait, is RC using Frank's hyperbole as his normal playstyle?

Ripping up the floorboards and selling them for firewood is stupid, if only because you won't have anywhere comfortable to stand while doing so. And you end up with a lot of boards with nails sticking out which is just asking for tetanus. Maybe taking the lead off the roofs.

I understand and like the idea of not bothering to collect every source of income, but if someone is less likely to die if they take the kitchen sink then they will. Especially someone who has no qualms over killing others in their sleep or whatever else adventurers do.

---

I have noticed a large number of Roy's more recent posts have literally nothing to say in them. Either that or he doesn't explain things well enough and I have to guess and check against how others react.

Roy'll probably just call me stupid, but surely it is a good thing for more people to come to the Den and making sure that one at least outline things at least once per thread would mean that more people understand what is going on and not be put off by jargon.

---

I can't remember any stories in fiction where they actually buy weapons or magic armour. Hell, I can't remember any stories where anyone wore more than two magic items they didn't make themselves.

And if you count D&D fiction as a comparison to D&D it is a waste of everyones time since it is based on the D&D rules.

Thing's like Elric's sword or the swords from the Barrow-Wights are not bought. They are not traded for, they don't have a gold value. If they did and could be bought then either all the rich lords would have them or people would indeed steal from and kill each other to get enough pennies to get them. If getting a magic sword is life or death then a large proportion of people will find a way to get it.

[Psychic Robot]

For a casual game, the 4E system is fine.

This. This times infinity.

And that's where the 4e hate comes from. Many of us want rules that make sense. We want the game world to live and breathe, and we want rules governing how it works. 4e says, "Fuck you" to us, and it embraces a videogame paradigm, where you don't care that only chemists can use potions because it's just how the game works. It's a mindset that I despise, personally, but for the average gamer, it's great.

Why, you say? The average gamer doesn't care about eeking out that last +1 from his character. The average gamer doesn't want to spend two hours statting up his character build. The average gamer doesn't want to flip through an endless supply of magical enchantments and carefully sculpt his sword. The average gamer wants to sit down, play for a few hours, and meet the same time next week.

And this applies doubly so for the DM, since he has to spend time writing up adventures, creating encounters, and calculating loot distribution. He doesn't want to have to spend more time than what's necessary in creating a game; his plate is already full.

For some players, this is okay. But I, personally, want rules that make sense, rules that govern the gaming world, rules that don't amount to "bullshit it." I want rules for crafting constructs and creating my own magic items and how to run a restaurant because that's the kind of player I am. I like all the nit-picky details. But most people don't. They just want to roll the dice.

The 4e devs catered to those players. They turned on 3e, denounced it as "unbalanced" and "unfun," and they got the casual fanbase to buy into these ideas, and that's why 4e sucks. Because it doesn't care one whit about verisimilitude. The game doesn't bother with mechanics that make sense because those mechanics don't matter outside of the players--at least, to the 4e devs and the 4e fanbase.