2 ELH Questions.

[Josh_Kablack]

Okay, the WotC Epic board has officially torqued me off on both of these, so it's time to ask here:

1. What's the caster level for the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar?

2. What's up with Anaxim Magic Immnity?


Ideally, I''m looking for an official or semi-official source like a FAQ answer, custserv letter or offhand remark given by one of the designers, but I'll settle for useful advice or suggestions. Anyone answering "You're the DM, you decide" gets added to my ignore list.

[User3]

Luckily, I'm not registered, so I'm not Ignore-able.

Page 31 of the DnD FAQ says that artifacts are DMs choice, but usually 20th.

As for the Anaxim Magic Imunity, why would it not work like the MM III version of Magic Immunity? Or is it that it's not in the text but is in the text block? The Errata is silent on that, and we can assume its part of the Errata's "we don't recognize typos, biatches" text on the last page.

[MrWaeseL]

Wouldn't the Magic Immunity be like Fire Immunity in that it doesn't need a special writeup?

[Username17]

The Anaxim references the 3e Iron Golem in its text. So despite the fact that it failed to actually cut-and-paste it, we can assume that the intended cut-and-paste text should be:

Magic Immunity (Ex): An Anaxim is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects.

Now, being immune to magic is a little bit different than being immune to cold. It means that you have infinite spell resistance. Or rather, it means that you have total immunity to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell-resistance.

What does it do to supernatural abilities? That's a damn good question. One answer is that it functions just like Fire Immunity, which means that such a creature is completely unaffected even by secondary effects of any supernatural ability. The other answer is composed of two answers and comes from the fact that creatures with Magic Immunity in the Monster Manual 3 have the special ability to be immune to any supernatural ability that allows spell resistance.

I know what you are thinking... Supernatural abilities don't allow spell resistance. Ever. So there are two interpretations here, where they are immune to no supernatural abilities, or where they are immune to every Su ability that would have allowed SR if it had been spell-like instead.

And it's that final one that I think they mean. I'm pretty sure they are supposed to be immune to every Su ability that would allow SR if it wasn't for the fact that Su abilities don't allow SR. They don't actually say that, and they don't identify which abilities those are, but I'm pretty sure that's what they meant.

The Amulet of Al'Akbar allows the user to cast the spells. I'm pretty sure, under the circumstances, that when it blows off the Dictum (presumably if you are Chaotic), it does so in the same way - namely as if you personally cast it. You don't have a caster level necessarily, so I think it just uses your hit dice. That would be my interpretation - the caster level is equal to the hit dice of the creature using/touching it.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

1113284179[/unixtime]]Luckily, I'm not registered, so I'm not Ignore-able.

Page 31 of the DnD FAQ says that artifacts are DMs choice, but usually 20th.

]

That's exactly the global reference I was looking for - thanks.

As for the Anaxim Magic Imunity, why would it not work like the MM III version of Magic Immunity?

1. Because there is no ability writeup for it in the ELH or the 3.5 revised ELH SRD entry.

2. Because in 3.5 there is no standard "magic immunity" or "immunity to magic" ability as there is with say, Improved Grab.

3. Because the Epic Golems listed later in the "3.5 Updated" SRD version of the ELH include immunity to "Supernatural" effects while none of the Magic Immunity abilities listed in the 3.5 MM include immunity to (Su) effects.

4. Because the Anaxim also has a listed SR rating, which means that one of these abilities is at least redundant, if not an outright typo.

Given these 4 factors, I'll be damned if I know if it's supposed to even be there, let alone how it's supposed to work. I was really hoping that maybe someone on the WotC Epic Board had been over this ground before and could clue me in, but I obviously should have known better.

****

What does it do to supernatural abilities? That's a damn good question. One answer is that it functions just like Fire Immunity, which means that such a creature is completely unaffected even by secondary effects of any supernatural ability. The other answer is composed of two answers and comes from the fact that creatures with Magic Immunity in the Monster Manual 3 have the special ability to be immune to any supernatural ability that allows spell resistance.

I know what you are thinking... Supernatural abilities don't allow spell resistance. Ever. So there are two interpretations here, where they are immune to no supernatural abilities, or where they are immune to every Su ability that would have allowed SR if it had been spell-like instead.

There's another possibility here. Most (but not all) Magic Immunity writeups include notable exceptions to which the Magic Immune creature is not actually immune, but has some other reaction to. It is possible that the design intent is for such creatures to be immune to (Su) abilities save for such (Su) abilities as have the specific effects or descriptors mentioned later in the ability. For an example, it is likely that the design intent was for a 3.0 Clay Golem to not be "immune" to a Beholder's disintegrate, but to be slowed by it. And it is possible that the sole point of the otherwise nonsensical wording is to ensure that such actually happens.

[User3]

The other answer is composed of two answers and comes from the fact that creatures with Magic Immunity in the Monster Manual 3 have the special ability to be immune to any supernatural ability that allows spell resistance.

Not totally true. MM3 doesn't talk about Immunity as unbeatable SR anymore. It says something like "cannot be affected by it under any circumstances" or something and doesn't reference the SR ruleset.

So Magic Immune creatures might be immune to no-SR spells like Force Orb. Indirect spells are a whole other matter. You might be immune to a Summon Monster spell or an Earthquake, or you might not.

[Username17]

Not totally true.

Actually, it is. "Immunity to Magic" is its own thing in the MM3 that is governed by its own separate rules that are distinct from the general rules it provides for Immunity in that book.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): Golems have immunity to magical and supernatural effects that allow spell resistance. Exceptions are noted.

That's the big one. And it's what general magic immunity can be assumed to be short for.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A shadesteel golem is immune to any spell, supernatural ability, or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects funcion differently against the creature, as noted below.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A mud golem is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural effects that allow spell resistance, except as follows.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A hangman golem is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural effects that allow spell resistance, except as follows.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): An alchemical golem is immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural effects that allow spell resistance, except as follows.

Interesting exceptions:

[*]The Prismatic Golem and the Web Golem are apparently not immune to Supernatural Abilities that allow spell resistance.
[*]The Gloom Golem has no description for its Immunity to Magic, and therefore presumably has no exceptions.

-Username17

[User3]

Right, thats the Golem text for Immunity to Magic. The general Immunity text in the back of the book does not talk about SR at all.

So while we know without a shadow of a doubt what happens to Golems, what happens to other Magic immune creatures is another question.

Anaxim are Abominations, not Golems, so any general text that applies specifically or generally to Golems does not apply to them. (though if the Anaxim text speceifically says "as a Golem," the you are good to go).

I'm not saying that you're dead wrong. I'm just saying that an unmodified Immunity does not relate in any way to SR and is just that: immunity. Magic Immunity that does not have modifying text like "does not apply to Su. abilties or effects that ignore SR" can easily fall under the general Immunity text and ignore any effect that is magical in nature (ie. a Detect Magic would find).

The Immunity text doesn't use the SR mechanic anymore to avoid things like Fire Elementals(Immune to Fire) being burned by Incendiary Clouds (a no SR effect), which we all know is silly.

By that logic, I don't even see a problem with an Epic level god-spawn being flat out immune to magic.

[RandomCasualty]

What supernatural effect allows SR in the first place though?

[Username17]

What supernatural effect allows SR in the first place though?

None of them. At all. Defintionally. If it's a supernatural ability, SR does not apply. There's even a feat that turns an Sp ability into an Su ability for the express purpose of negating SR.

That's the whole point. This means that either:

[*] They are fvcking insane, and the references to Su abilities have no business being there.
or
[*] They really meant that they should be immune to Su abilities that would have been affected by SR if they hadn't been Su.

-Username17

[Zherog]

Actually, a combo of the two is distinctly possible. There's a chance that they're insane and they meant it the way you listed.

[RandomCasualty]

1113445399[/unixtime]]
[*] They really meant that they should be immune to Su abilities that would have been affected by SR if they hadn't been Su.

So then you're left with the question of what abilities fall under this catagory.

[Boulie_98]

1113335479[/unixtime]]

1113284179[/unixtime]]Page 31 of the DnD FAQ says that artifacts are DMs choice, but usually 20th.

That's exactly the global reference I was looking for - thanks.

But isn't it a bit low for an Epic artifact?

[Lago_AM3P]

But isn't it a bit low for an Epic artifact?

Yes, it is, but artifacts actually really have no place in the core rules. In fact, there's only one mention made of how to get one (The Staff of the Magi through the wish spell) and there is no certainty that you would actually get one.

They're completely made up objects that don't follow any sort of rule. The Caster Level thing is just unimportant.

[Josh_Kablack]

1113516955[/unixtime]
They're completely made up objects that don't follow any sort of rule. The Caster Level thing is just unimportant.

Not when the artifact in question duplicates spells that have effects entirely dependant on caster level.

You want to have an artifact throw a 10d6 Fireball that ignores SR, fine, you can do that without assigning a caster level. You want an artifact that throws Dictum we bloody well need to have a caster level attached to that effect - otherwise we have no idea what the artifact does and the entire writeup is a waste of space.

[Lago_AM3P]

The point I was trying to make was that since you as the DM had to manually insert the item in the game in the first place, you might as well just assign any damn CL you feel like.

[Lago_AM3P]

I'm sorry, Josh. That was completely unhelpful.

I admit that my real motive was to maybe lure FrankTrollman out into a topical and hilarious rant about artifacts.