WFRP: I think I just crapped my pants with joy.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:00 am

Obviously, the key is to introduce DM ex machina nerfs to the powerful characters. The wizard keeps casting his spells? "SHIT SON LOOKS LIKE ARCANE BACKLASH KNOCKED YOU OUT." The cleric keeps beating things? "FOOLISH MORTAL THE GODS ARE PISSED YOU LOSE YOUR POWERS." The rogue keeps sneak attacking? "UH-OH LOOKS LIKE THE UNDEAD GOLEMS ARE BUSTING CAPS AND ASSES."

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:02 am

Psychic Robot wrote:Obviously, the key is to introduce DM ex machina nerfs to the powerful characters. The wizard keeps casting his spells? "SHIT SON LOOKS LIKE ARCANE BACKLASH KNOCKED YOU OUT." The cleric keeps beating things? "FOOLISH MORTAL THE GODS ARE PISSED YOU LOSE YOUR POWERS." The rogue keeps sneak attacking? "UH-OH LOOKS LIKE THE UNDEAD GOLEMS ARE BUSTING CAPS AND ASSES."

You say that seemingly sarcastic, but from what I can tell, that's totally your actual method of balance/gameplay.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:09 am

Kaelik wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:Obviously, the key is to introduce DM ex machina nerfs to the powerful characters. The wizard keeps casting his spells? "SHIT SON LOOKS LIKE ARCANE BACKLASH KNOCKED YOU OUT." The cleric keeps beating things? "FOOLISH MORTAL THE GODS ARE PISSED YOU LOSE YOUR POWERS." The rogue keeps sneak attacking? "UH-OH LOOKS LIKE THE UNDEAD GOLEMS ARE BUSTING CAPS AND ASSES."
You say that seemingly sarcastic, but from what I can tell, that's totally your actual method of balance/gameplay.

As a lurker and a newb, I agree. The sarcasm can be cut with a knife, but this is how you seem to do things.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:45 am

Kaelik wrote:You say that seemingly sarcastic, but from what I can tell, that's totally your actual method of balance/gameplay.

Your faculties deceive you. PROVE ME WRONG.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:42 am

Can we all not bring shit from other threads into new ones?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:27 am

Yeah, that WoW discussion is really annoying. The 'trees' are basically classes as well at the top levels, because your gear and playstyle is focused on that - they even made it so that 'Feral' Druids have to choose between their Cat and Bear types. See the rankings? None of the top teams have any Feral Druids. At all. And yet, that's where some of the best gear for PvE Druids comes from - many of the top PvE raiding guilds have Feral Druids.

So if an equal chance to win is part of your fun, or to get that great prize, it's not balanced (or fun) if your playstyle or character is excluded.

-Crissa

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:46 am

Crissa wrote:Yeah, that WoW discussion is really annoying. The 'trees' are basically classes as well at the top levels, because your gear and playstyle is focused on that - they even made it so that 'Feral' Druids have to choose between their Cat and Bear types. See the rankings? None of the top teams have any Feral Druids. At all. And yet, that's where some of the best gear for PvE Druids comes from - many of the top PvE raiding guilds have Feral Druids.

So if an equal chance to win is part of your fun, or to get that great prize, it's not balanced (or fun) if your playstyle or character is excluded.

-Crissa

Plus fucking one.

I was feral since... before any of the expansions. I got so sick and tired of being sick and tired. Respecced for Blaster-Owl. The gear for it lets me heal when I'm not in Owl-form, so it's not bad if I have to off-heal for some reason.

Nihlin · Post by **Nihlin** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:17 pm

Wow... Um, I'm just going to split off a new thread about the different social mechanics out there in various games.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:32 pm

Fuck.

WFRP 3e is coming out. Set sail for fail:

It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I’ve played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

4e D&D + gritty fantasy = what abomination has been loosed upon this Earth?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:02 pm

Sounds like since it's with Fantasy Flight they are going all Descent or Rune Bound with it.

I'd say that would be great but... I'm not seeing the compatibility there in a number of ways.

Also. It's GW fluff so it's like Fantasy Flight is just stupidly wasting their time from my perspective.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:29 pm

Heresy.

Absentminded_Wizard · Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:43 am

Psychic Robot wrote:Fuck.
It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I’ve played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.
4e D&D + gritty fantasy = what abomination has been loosed upon this Earth?

So it's 4e with dice pools? Now we'll see how good GW is at math.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:16 pm

It sounds distressingly like Warhammer Quest.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:17 am

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:
So it's 4e with dice pools? Now we'll see how good GW is at math.

Correct answer, well-known by all: not very. Meaning 'not at all'.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:28 am

Mister_Sinister wrote:Correct answer, well-known by all: not very. Meaning 'not at all'.

And if one of the PCs takes advantage of this, the DM will be instructed to punch them.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:52 pm

Sounds about right for those cock-bags.

Alternatively: when in doubt, roll a d6 to see who is right!
Note that this was listed as a tactic for pissing people off in Warhammer: dispute every single rule, even "okay, movement phase." Demand they show a reference in the rules. Then say sometimes the printed rules are wrong and demand a roll-off.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:23 pm

Koumei wrote:Sounds about right for those cock-bags.

Alternatively: when in doubt, roll a d6 to see who is right!
Note that this was listed as a tactic for pissing people off in Warhammer: dispute every single rule, even "okay, movement phase." Demand they show a reference in the rules. Then say sometimes the printed rules are wrong and demand a roll-off.

I honestly still think that's better than 'punchin' legal.' The policy where they recommend committing assault.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:27 pm

Yeah, nothing beats an admittedly unbalanced competitive game where the designers suggest that people who use weak tactics and unit selection should physically attack players who use much better tactics and unit selection.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:35 pm

Oh, true, the "Punch him" thing is just bad form - if it were "obviously they're joking" then it'd be a bit of a laugh. Except they're not. They're seriously suggesting players should punch each other. As well as using that to cover their own bad design.

(Note that my store doesn't allow physical violence, GW-endored or otherwise. They've told people "Okay, you have to leave now. Pack up your minis, you lose." for less, and they'd certainly do it for actual punching. That being said, they do encourage saying "Don't be stupid." if someone wants 2 Steam Tanks in their 2,000 point WHFB army or 3+ Land Raiders in any non-Apocalypse 40K army.)

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:27 pm

I actually read an article by a 'veteran' competitive tournament player who deliberately gimped his army, giving the justification that otherwise, he'd get shafted in construction and sportsmanship. Seriously, what the flying fuck?

Those guys fellate the Oberoni Fallacy, the Stormwind Fallacy and rollplay vs. roleplay (in its wargame incarnation) every hour of every waking day. Expecting them to come up with rules that work is asking too much.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:11 am

Mister_Sinister wrote:I actually read an article by a 'veteran' competitive tournament player who deliberately gimped his army, giving the justification that otherwise, he'd get shafted in construction and sportsmanship. Seriously, what the flying fuck?

Given that the soft scores are based on perception that vet is min/maxing quite well. You get market down for 'cheesy' lists, actual power is irrelevant. The goal is therefore to select a list that is awesome but avoids the things that people think are overpowered.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:14 am

Why not just ban or restrict the overpowered option?

This is exactly why CCGs have a ban/restrict list. That way people don't use 'cheesy' cards and have to search for the next round of cheese. And when someone discovers the cheese of that, the cycle repeats itself.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:25 am

Good point, Draco. People frown if you take "Lash of Submission" (one of the few good choices that Chaos Space Marines have, but heavily abused in the past, usually by dint of having both HQ slots take it) or Nidzilla armies (2 squads of 6 Genestealers or 8 Gaunts, the rest are Monstrous Creatures - the only effective Tyranid army). But they don't blink if you take ONE MILLION ORKS in all of their underpriced glory or get Creed to TACTICAL GENIUS a trio of Leman Russ tanks in (the close range gatling gun ones. Heavy 20*3 ftw).

It's all about stealth-power, like Sleepizards in 3E D&D that make the fighters think they (the fighters) are doing all the killing.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:25 am

Koumei wrote:Good point, Draco. People frown if you take "Lash of Submission" (one of the few good choices that Chaos Space Marines have, but heavily abused in the past, usually by dint of having both HQ slots take it) or Nidzilla armies (2 squads of 6 Genestealers or 8 Gaunts, the rest are Monstrous Creatures - the only effective Tyranid army). But they don't blink if you take ONE MILLION ORKS in all of their underpriced glory or get Creed to TACTICAL GENIUS a trio of Leman Russ tanks in (the close range gatling gun ones. Heavy 20*3 ftw).

It's all about stealth-power, like Sleepizards in 3E D&D that make the fighters think they (the fighters) are doing all the killing.

Seriously, that makes me puke. I HATE stealth optimisation, and I hate systems that encourage it.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:11 am

Oh, true, the "Punch him" thing is just bad form - if it were "obviously they're joking" then it'd be a bit of a laugh. Except they're not. They're seriously suggesting players should punch each other. As well as using that to cover their own bad design.

Are you serious? If so, do we have evidence? It would be fun to read a designer's statement that, "Yes, we endorse violence to stop tactical optimization in our wargame."