Bigotry

[Crissa]

I said a statement was offensive. That should be the end of it. Instead we get a huge diatribe about how it isn't offensive. That's the opposite of respectful.

The problem is your credibility. Not only do you have issues with etymology and word origins, but you choose words that are on the fringe to get upset about. That results in people not believing you when you say something is offensive.

In other words, your privilege trumps someone asking politely. Notice your next paragraph, which is anti-feminist:

I have actually taken a college course on feminism where the spear in your avatar's hand would be considered offensive because spears are phallic and OMG PENIS!!!111!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not like you're not just a big hypocrite that has no reason to even post in this thread.

It was absurd.

I was under the impression that it was the people on your side of the argument who tend to dismiss the opinion of people outside the "target" group. I've felt the need to speak up about my opinion and bring my gender into it precisely because you've shown absolutely no respect toward males who feel a word doesn't mean what you think it does.

Ahh, yes, the gender defender. Because you're a heterosexual white woman, who has her identity embedded into the society. I know there are Republican women, too. That doesn't stop them from being wrong.

You then go on about victimhood. Of course, I didn't say that. CeilingCat did. She asked you to not act stuck up and privileged.

But you're here, predictably with the pro-misogyny crowd. Who else are we missing? Is there anyone who was pro-misogyny who isn't now pro-bigotry?

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

Yes when your support consists largely of posters who have openly outed themselves as lying about their own positions in order to troll this forum for lulz and also a poster infamous for openly writing post after post of rape apologia on this board... well...

Hey lying asshole, point to such an instance regarding me. Or for that matter, any of them. Oh wait you can't.

And of course you won't hit view, because we keep doing that mean bigoted thing of asking for proof instead of taking your word, so if you actually read what we said, you'd have no excuse for not being able to point to a single example of bigotry by anyone except Roy who is very very late to this, and has shit all to do with anything.

[PhoneLobster]

But you're here, predictably with the pro-misogyny crowd. Who else are we missing? Is there anyone who was pro-misogyny who isn't now pro-bigotry?

Tzor. But he left. Oh and I think Bigode isn't here anymore either.

They would pretty much top off the shit supporters sandwich pretty nicely.

[Kaelik]

Hey look everyone. Maj is sexist. You can tell because she disagreed with Crissa. And only sexists can disagree with Crissa.

Hey Crissa, saying "I was in a feminism class that said stupid things" is not anti-feminism, it's anti-stupidity.

Look: "I was in a D&D group where someone said that a level 1 Fighter could always no matter what, beat a level 10 Wizard."

Oh damn, I must hate D&D.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Oh my fucking god.

I almost fell out of my chair several times reading this thread, it's just that goddamn funny.

It's like the angry german kid was a lesbian furry. And was less coherent.


Edit: One time Maj asked me to stop mentioning my genitals because it was "gross". It really depressed me for a while, but every time Crissa mentions her genitals I throw up in my mouth a little. I can see her point of view much clearer now.

[Meikle641]

This thread is awesome.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Belated posting:

Frank, don't be a tard. Of course a word doesn't mean anything in of itself.

You can say '[EDITED]' and 'trap' all the hell you want if you're not referring to the offensive versions of those concepts. But honestly, someone who uses the word '[EDITED]' as a shorthand for homosexual male already knows what the meaning is and probably is also aware of the hostility inherent in the world.

Say trap all the fuck you want when you're talking about bad Star Wars movies or Yugioh. But when trap is used to describe a transvestite/transgendered/feminine-looking male, it means a specific thing. Your attempt to obfuscate the issue by going 'trap isn't a universally agreed on term' and 'a lot of people don't use the word in that way' is deceitful bullshit.


Secondly, nice dodge thar with the 'I get F-word privileges'. It's not the specific word you have or don't have privileges with, it's the meaning you have privileges with. Because--as far as I know--you don't identify with the gay community, it's not considered cool for you to refer to a homosexual male as a [EDITED].

Feel free to refer to [EDITED] as a bundle of sticks or cigarettes all you want, but be aware that doing so in some situations will cause people to think that you're abusing the ambiguity of the English language to make a stealth insult under the veneer of respectability. Sort of like yelling 'fire' repeatedly in a theatre and then claiming at the trial that you were just playing your voice-activated Artillery Fighter Game on your iPod.

[Kaelik]

Hey Lago, you missed his entire fucking argument, which is that trap isn't offensive at all, and is often used within the community of transgendered people as a complement, and so you are full of shit.

[Crissa]

Except, it isn't, Kaelik.

But that comes down to only believing those who have outed themselves as trans to the group, apparently.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

Except, it isn't, Kaelik.

But that comes down to only believing those who have outed themselves as trans to the group, apparently.

-Crissa

No that comes from understanding it's origin. It comes from understanding the context of a word. It comes from a consensus of users.

And then, after you throw all those things out the window because they disagree with you, and declare that only in groups get to define what upsets them, then and only then, does it turn out that even in the in group, it still isn't considered offensive.

[Username17]

Frank's argument is that only people who are willing to have their privacy invaded are allowed to complain.

No. That is literally the exact opposite of my argument.

Your argument was that people of sexual preference minorities had a right to decide what language was and was not acceptable for them. My argument is that is bullshit, and everyone gets to use language.

But the second point is that even if you were right, even if only members of sexual preference minorities go a say in whether the word trap could be used in the context of referring to women with penises - we have people of sexual preference minorities saying that yes, yes it can. So even if we took your incredibly bigoted argument that straight white males don't get a voice in deciding whether terminology is acceptable, the finding would still be that it was.

You are wrong, even by your own standards. Which are also wrong.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Ahh, yes, the gender defender. Because you're a heterosexual white woman, who has her identity embedded into the society. I know there are Republican women, too. That doesn't stop them from being wrong.

Here we go again, the supposed person speaking against bigotry and prejudice is talking to people about how their sexuality and race makes them wrong. Great. Way to set an example about how we shouldn't judge people by their sexual orientation and their race.

Crissa, you're the biggest bigot here, discriminating against white males, now straight white women...

All the discrimination is coming from you.

[Ganbare Gincun]

You guys can argue all you want about whether or not a certain word is inherently bigoted or not. But we're not talking about a hypothetical situation here. The main issue is that Ceilingcat was offended by the use of certain terms used to describe transgender people, and instead of showing some respect towards her and complying with her request, some people decided to dial it up to eleven for the lulz instead. It's not just the words that were used that were injurious, but the intent behind continuing to use them after an objection had been raised that caused injury.

[Username17]

I'm sorry to see Ceiling Cat go, but her argument was fucking awful. Here's the one she made that got responded to:

And this is why people outside of a group do not get to decide what people inside that group find offensive or not.

See that? That's the same bigoted argument that Crissa was making. The one she was claiming I had made. The one where she gets to throw everyone's vote out because they aren't cool enough to be the right group.

And then when people came forward to say that they were in the group and still disagreed with her, she rage quit. That's a sense of entitlement that I can't support.

I don't think she should have done it, and I'm sorry it happened, but I literally don't have any sympathy for her in this instance. She made an unreasonable demand based on unreasonable criteria, and people met them for her to continue the discussion and she threw a temper tantrum that her "I'm a sexual preference minority so I win arguments" argument didn't win her the argument.

-Username17

[Parthenon]

Since everyone else is getting into this thread I feel I ought to as well.

---

Why would lesbians have any say about transexuals opinions? If someone's argument is that people outside of a group can't speak for those inside, then Crissa has no say whatsoever about whether or not "trap" is offensive or not to transexuals.

Try this: take a look at some porn sites, especially those that cater to a lot of different groups. In all likelihood some of the porn will be labelled as "trap". As in, some people will be looking for it. As in, they want it; it is a good thing. As in, not offensive in the slightest.
(Don't ask how I know this. If someone asks why you're looking at chicks with dicks, its research. You're saving the images to your hard drive for... for evidence. Yeah, thats a good excuse.)

True, you can make it offensive. Die hard creationists think evolution is offensive. Some people think that calling someone a communist is offensive, or calling someone a Republican is offensive. Whoop-ti-fucking-do!

[Crissa]

Apparently Frank's argument is that dark-skinned americans have no business complaining?

I'm confused here. Really. You've run off several people, and still you make shit up about me being bigoted for pointing out bigoted language, Frank makes shit up about a medical condition he's apparently not well versed in any studies involved in the last thirty years...

...And someone else has brought up that porn uses a term, that means someone doesn't find it insulting. That's completely ridiculous. Porn uses loaded language intentionally, because it's made for its customer's comfort.

Frank's position that someone cannot ask for respect is faulty. Basically, he's saying we cannot ask Count to zip up. Or ask him not to use the f-word to refer to people or the n-word... And yet, fbmf's position is that he shouldn't use that word.

It's not an internally consistent position.

You still do not get to make the decision what people find offensive. You totally can parade around the thing they find offensive, but once again, you don't get to complain when they call you bigoted. Talk like a duck, be called a duck.

-Crissa

All the discrimination is coming from you.

Of course, that would require you to understand what discrimination meant, in social terms. I have no power here. I literally can not be discriminatory against anyone here.

Just as it takes a complete and utter disregard for the politics of bigotry for it to be possible for me to be bigoted against white people. I can, however, show a total disdain for those ignorant of their privilege. Pointing out privilege in language isn't bigotry.

[ubernoob]

Crissa, here is what the word bigot actually means. Like, from the dictionary.

a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Guess what, you totally can (and do all the fucking time) act like a bigot toward straight white males. Stop being such a fucking hypocrite. At least when we call you names, they happen to be right. Stop being wrong. Remember, we're not making you come post here. I'd be fucking happy if you just gave up the den because that would make it 100% more fun to read.

[Crissa]

Please, ubernoob, in your infinite wisdom, what is bigotry?

And how is it demonstrated by pointing out that white boys have privilege?

Please. Find some links. Explain.

But you won't. Because you don't mind being a liar.

-Crissa

[Vnonymous]

Being the intrepid investigative forums poster that I am, I actually went and asked a "trap" what they thought of the whole thread.

This was their response:

So yeah, if I felt like wasting time commenting on a dramarama like that, I'd leave a note for crissa to actually try talking to transpeople in 4chan related communities before she starts telling us how we perceive the language used to describe us, thank you very much.
But yeah, 420chan/cd/ doesn't give a fuck. tranchan doesn't give a fuck. 7chan doesn't give a fuck.
4chan doesn't give a fuck
linetrap, darktrap, trapchan, tarp-chan, losttrap, none of them give a fuck
If she's so offended by the word, instead of empowering the damn word by FREAKING THE FUCK OUT whenever it's used pejoratively, she should just start using it casually and start taking it back

[Crissa]

Yep, let's negate all the women and transwomen it'll be used on - and find a supportive voice in an inner group that wouldn't exist if they said otherwise.

Fuck you're a tool.

-Crissa

[PhoneLobster]

Apparently Frank's argument is that dark-skinned americans have no business complaining?

Apparently his argument is that words right can mean like anything man because like words are like meaningless dude.

So the black bashing words of the month be they Kaffir, or Abo or Porch Monkey aren't actually indicative of Bigotry at all because hey, words don't mean anything at all man.

I will be impressed by his words don't have meaning argument when he can make a clear and justifiable case for it. Without using actual words of course, since their meaninglessness would only obscure the meaning he is attempting to impart.

So yeah, I wait his interpretive dance movements that would explain why if I were calling him a "Filthy Greedy Jew" I would not be a Bigot.

[Koumei]

...I wonder if the site would be better if there was no MPSIMS at all and it was "Gaming-related only, final destination". Less stupid arguments, less rage-quitting, CeilingCat would still be here, I would think "Hey, that Kaelik thing knows what it's talking about when it comes to game balance" without also thinking "but what a jerk", Tzor basically never would have been relevant here...

[Vnonymous]

I personally think that this, or all parts of the forum should simply have the username removed or randomised for any given post.
EDIT:

<Deep Throat> But yeah, doesn't really matter. She's too closeminded to actually take the advice and talk to people. And even if she had overwhelming evidence against her point given firsthand, she'd not change her mind.
<Deep Throat> Being offended gives power to a word.
<???????> Is this, like, an argument about how some bitch thinks that the word "Trap" is degrading to gays, and the gays who are traps are all like "Pssh, whatever bitch"?
<Deep Throat> ICK: Degrading to transpeople, apparently.
<???????> And this bitch is not a tranny of some kind?
<Deep Throat> Which would be an okay argument if she were actually addressing it towards the actual part of it that's offensive.
<Deep Throat> See, 'trap' has an underlying slightly offensive tone, not because OMG TRANNIES ARE BAD mentality, but because it's sexually objectifying.
<Deep Throat> It's most often used in an empowering sense, but in the same way that most descriptive words for attractive women are.
<???????> Really? I just figured it meant a person who seems highly fuckable, yet has a penis
<???????> hm
<Deep Throat> It does
<???????> I think I see your point
<Deep Throat> note the 'highly fuckable' portion.
<Deep Throat> And the 'has a penis' portion
<Deep Throat> The only 'insulting' portion of the word is that it's sexually objectifying. Not that it's homophobic. That has nothing with the word, that's entirely contextual.
<???????> I don't think I understand the concept of sexual objectification, honestly.
<Deep Throat> So, if you want to cliffnotes that and post it up, feel free.
<Deep Throat> ICK: It's kind of silly to get upset over, but the idea is that it's degrading because it reduces the subject to nothing more than something to fap to.
<???????> Doesn't that make being of the opposite gender objectifying for most of the planet's population?
<Deep Throat> But yeah, her continuing insinuation that trap implies a negative 'bait and switch' sex situation is silly, as trap is used more often than not in praise than any other context.
<Deep Throat> ICK: Yessir.
<???????> I don't think my brain works like that
<Deep Throat> And everyone objectifies.
<???????> I dunno about anyone else
<Deep Throat> Some people are hot, and you're not going to get to know anything about them. In this context they really are nothing but something to fap to. Though you should keep that to yourself.
<Deep Throat> anyways, if you wanted to cliffnote that, you're free to. But again, it's blatantly obvious from her post that she believes herself to be the absolute authority in this situation, so replies don't do a damn thing other than make her keep talking.

[PhoneLobster]

There is an incredibly easy way of emulating both those things.

Much as for me this forum pretty much lacks endless amounts of boring race and class threads because I rarely if ever visit it's my own creation since it was taken over by the crowd that does nothing but spew out seemingly endless amounts of derivative d20 material.

edit: Oh look a ninja insertion of a wise chin stroking conversation between two very out of touch very privileged typical ignoramuses. I mean "the word trap CLEARLY doesn't mean bait and switch!" WTF??? Why the fuck did you think that was anything other than insulting and degrading... TO YOURSELF to go posting that?

You know I think a lot of people here need to spend some serious time in Blue Eyes therapy.

[Vnonymous]

There is an incredibly easy way of emulating both those things.

Much as for me this forum pretty much lacks endless amounts of boring race and class threads because I rarely if ever visit it's my own creation since it was taken over by the crowd that does nothing but spew out seemingly endless amounts of derivative d20 material.

edit: Oh look a ninja insertion of a wise chin stroking conversation between two very out of touch very privileged typical ignoramuses. I mean "the word trap CLEARLY doesn't mean bait and switch!" WTF??? Why the fuck did you think that was anything other than insulting and degrading... TO YOURSELF to go posting that?

You know I think a lot of people here need to spend some serious time in Blue Eyes therapy.

Its' a "ninja insertion" because I didn't think double posting would be a good idea.

Secondly, "deep throat" is actually a member of the 4chan transexual community. You're actually more "privileged" than she is. I have no idea who the other person in the conversation is, although they may very well be a privileged white straight male.