[OSSR]Factol's Manifesto

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
wotmaniac
Knight-Baron
Posts: 888
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:40 am
Location: my house

Post by wotmaniac »

Whipstitch wrote:
wotmaniac wrote: Why all the jaded cynicism?
There's a deep irony at play here, given that part of the issue I have with Planescape is that the writers confuse humor with shitting lazy moral relativism all over everything, which is in itself a rather super cynical thing to do.
The cynicism that I'm talking about is the whole general attitude that a lot of Denners have, apparently, about the entire hobby.
The fact that there happens to be 2 points of intersecting cynicism (i.e., individual attitude + setting tone) is purely coincidental.
Last edited by wotmaniac on Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
*WARNING*: I say "fuck" a lot.
"The most patriotic thing you can do as an American is to become filthy, filthy rich."
- Mark Cuban

"Game design has no obligation to cater to people who don’t buy into the premise of the game"

TGD -- skirting the edges of dickfinity since 2003.

Public Service Announcement
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Chamomile wrote:4) Sigil's government is a bizarre and barely functional thirty government pileup,
That's like a hundred less governments than at least one moderately sized urban area the real world
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
User avatar
wotmaniac
Knight-Baron
Posts: 888
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:40 am
Location: my house

Post by wotmaniac »

Josh_Kablack wrote:
Chamomile wrote:4) Sigil's government is a bizarre and barely functional thirty government pileup,
That's like a hundred less governments than at least one moderately sized urban area the real world
:rofl:
Gotta love da 'Burgh.
*WARNING*: I say "fuck" a lot.
"The most patriotic thing you can do as an American is to become filthy, filthy rich."
- Mark Cuban

"Game design has no obligation to cater to people who don’t buy into the premise of the game"

TGD -- skirting the edges of dickfinity since 2003.

Public Service Announcement
User avatar
Orion
Prince
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Orion »

Chamomile, If you go that route, I would strongly recommend making the Transcendents a legislative faction, and I would consider doing the same for the dustmen. The Transcendents go into the legislature because otherwise they're extremely boring. It's not a terribly interesting religious philosophy, and has no obvious plot hooks, so you have to play it up as an organization to get any traction at all from it. This has the added advantage of making it easier to tell stories about the legislature. So many of the factions are so deeply and cartoonishly ideological that it's trivial to predict how they would vote on any issue. If you want a plot with tension over an upcoming vote, or an adventure about getting votes to pass a bill, then it's useful to have a bunch of votes in the hands of some people without an overriding agenda. (Other than wealth, or power, or publicity, or whatever the high-ups in the pyramid scheme want).

Dustmen go into the legislature because they have obvious motivations to do so. They love corpses and necromancy, so they will have lobbied hard to get a state-granted monopoly on embalming and funeral services, which also explains why religious people even go through the dustmen. They can bring in a private chaplain if they like, but they still have to pay up for the venue and the basic embalming package. Apart from that, there's no reason they wouldn't try to impose buddhist theocracy where possible, and their aesthetic sensibility gives an opportunity to add creepypasta as needed throughout the city.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

If you wanted to have 15 factions do "political stuff", you'd probably want them to have political opinions that had moderate amounts of overlap. As it happens, 15 happens to be 6c2, which means that if you made six big "political issues", you could have each faction support two of those issues and have each combination used only once.

The factions actually in Planescape are shitty. They are shitty because you can't do politics with them because you can't extrapolate anything sensible about what they want. They are shitty because you can't do politics with them because their political powers don't make any sense. Combine these two and you can't determine who you would go to if you wanted to make a thing happen and you can't determine what they would want in exchange. That's fucked.

But beyond that, the Planescape factions are shitty because they don't tell good stories. Most of them actively impede their members from going on adventures, thereby obviating literally the entire game. More than one faction is dedicated to "not caring about things" in one or more way, which serves no purpose other than to shit on potential adventure hooks. A party with a Fated or a Duster or an Indep in it is expected to pass on the adventure hook "Our village is in trouble, please help us!" A Mercy Killer or Hard Head would totally like to do something about that, but they have a day job and can't go. What the actual fuck, Planescape?

Some of the Factions are so bad at telling stories that the authors of this book couldn't think of any stories to tell. The Ciphers don't do anything, or care about anything, or have any major conflicts worth mentioning. They have no goals or methods worth discussing. They hang out in the gym, dispense fortune cookie wisdom, and have nothing to offer to any adventure.

The fact is that Planescape isn't a masterpiece. It never was. It was something Zeb Cook came up with over a month in order to meet some irrational demands from the marketing department. The factions aren't brilliant parody, they aren't wry commentary on the modern world, they are half assed. Each faction was a throwaway placeholder concept written in a hurry for a marketing department that literally wanted to have the setting explained to them in 25 words or less to give it the green light. There was never anything there. The factions should have been scrapped and replaced with things that weren't half-assed placeholders that could be used to tell stories and move the plot. And this should have been done at the beginning, because the primary author knew he only had a first draft on his hands.

As is, the only thing they could think of to do with the factions when push came to shove was just to have a big war and have all of them wiped out. And even then four of the factions didn't even fight in that war and two of the factions split to fight on both sides. Because even in the story "Everyone is Kung Fu Fighting" about a third of the factions as written were to fucking apathetic to do fuck all about it.

The Lady of Pain isn't artistic vision, she isn't a masterpiece of design, she's an accident. Zeb Cook really liked the drawing, so they decided to use her for the logo of the setting. And then because she was the setting logo, they kept adding powers to her until she was a setting dominating rape machine. She's just an authorial favorite wank NPC run amok. She doesn't need to be in the setting. She doesn't help the setting. She's just there because the author thought the picture was cool. That's it.

-Username17
User avatar
wotmaniac
Knight-Baron
Posts: 888
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:40 am
Location: my house

Post by wotmaniac »

I can't decide which is worse -- intellectual laziness or intellect wasted on the wrong things.
:mantears:
*WARNING*: I say "fuck" a lot.
"The most patriotic thing you can do as an American is to become filthy, filthy rich."
- Mark Cuban

"Game design has no obligation to cater to people who don’t buy into the premise of the game"

TGD -- skirting the edges of dickfinity since 2003.

Public Service Announcement
User avatar
PoliteNewb
Duke
Posts: 1053
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:23 am
Location: Alaska
Contact:

Post by PoliteNewb »

The Sensates have a piece of magitech that allows them to store and playback sense data. Like a video recorder, but it can also do touch or taste or whatever.
So these guys are like Lenny from "Strange Days"? Because I would probably play him in a D&D campaign.
And that's the end of the chapter and the book. On the plus side: we are treated to Tiefling sideboob.
And yet...you do not share. I am disappoint.
I am judging the philosophies and decisions you have presented in this thread. The ones I have seen look bad, and also appear to be the fruit of a poisonous tree that has produced only madness and will continue to produce only madness.

--AngelFromAnotherPin

believe in one hand and shit in the other and see which ones fills up quicker. it will be the one you are full of, shit.

--Shadzar
User avatar
wotmaniac
Knight-Baron
Posts: 888
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:40 am
Location: my house

Post by wotmaniac »

Page 160 (it takes a minute to load)

sorry, it's the best I can do.

EDIT: oh, wait -- here you go (albeit a bit small):
Image
Last edited by wotmaniac on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
*WARNING*: I say "fuck" a lot.
"The most patriotic thing you can do as an American is to become filthy, filthy rich."
- Mark Cuban

"Game design has no obligation to cater to people who don’t buy into the premise of the game"

TGD -- skirting the edges of dickfinity since 2003.

Public Service Announcement
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

Orion wrote:Chamomile, If you go that route, I would strongly recommend making the Transcendents a legislative faction, and I would consider doing the same for the dustmen.
Funnily enough, your priorities are exactly the opposite of mine. I ruled Transcendents, Dustmen, and Seekers out as political factions because I couldn't see any reason for them to want to go to the effort of playing politics that wasn't "our philosophy is actually a front for power-mongering." As you've pointed out, I had overlooked the Dustmen's vested interest in making sure necromancy is still allowed in Sigil, and in fact this could be worked into a multi-planar political platform to make necromancy more accepted in general. The Transcendents, on the other hand, don't have anything that makes them stick out from any other faction. Their whole premise is going with the flow and if you strip that out you've basically got a completely different faction. Which is, granted, pretty much exactly what I did with the Revolutionary League.

If I were to invent a Sigil faction to be the religious sort, I would base them on either Confucianism (stealing from Taoism liberally for the actually supernatural parts) or Catholicism. Rigid, hierarchical belief systems for whom imposing themselves on others comes rather naturally. Then put them in charge of Sigil's ministry of religion. Heavy political opposition prevents them from banning other churches outright, but they can tax them more heavily than their own, while also pushing social conservatism. They would not get along with the Athar (for obvious reasons) or the Dustmen (because they both run very similar things to one another).

The Seekers seem like they have a few trappings that could be reworked into the aggressively religious faction. Instead of making them supporters of independence, have their self-improvement schtick also contain a near-cult-like devotion to those who have self-improved more than you. Create a fairly rigid though not necessarily labyrinthine hierarchy of who is more improved than who, and give them a rabid desire to make everyone else like them.

Still, self-improvement as your main theme doesn't typically lend itself towards a religion where everyone but the guy on top is expected to be subject to someone else.
User avatar
Desdan_Mervolam
Knight-Baron
Posts: 985
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

AncientHistory wrote:Wemics are a kind of centaur-lion kinda thing: head of a lion, humanoid upper torso, lion lower torso. Try not to google those too much, I have a feeling there’s a lot of furry porn with that configuration.
Less than you might think. I'm sure it's out there, but I haven't seen much, probably due to the existence of another tauric feline creature that came out of the Fandom itself The Chakat. If you choose to GIS this, do it with Safesearch on. Either way, yer on y'own.
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

The Sensates are hands down the best faction. Indeed, they are the only faction you could just use "as is" and feel good about it. They meet the bare minimum requirements of being a player character faction:
  • Members of the faction are allowed to go adventures that last for as long as the adventures take.
  • Members of the faction are allowed to be in a party with other adventurers, pretty much regardless of what the other players bring to the table.
  • Members of the faction are not required to betray their party members, retire, or do anything else that would prematurely end the campaign.
Furthermore, they do a lot of things that make for a good adventure backdrop:
  • They throw lavish and interesting parties and invite people who hate each other so that you can have intrigue and duels.
  • They collect recordings and leave them on shelves until they are accessed again in the future, allowing you to find logs, clues, or other plot exposition left by people who have since died or gone missing.
  • They have a genuinely interesting and unusual prison to dump undesirables into that is worth at least one Star Trek style adventure (the prison the inmates do not want to leave).
And they make for a decent political organization:
  • They have a recruiting pitch that you can understand attracting real faction loyalty as well as crowds of supporters.
  • They have a real and understandable cash flow, where the organization's funding sources do not strain suspension of disbelief.
  • They have a clearly defined set of pet issues - ex.: spend public moneys on the arts - that is sufficiently orthogonal to what most political groups care about that you could easily imagine them making temporary alliances with political groups from all over the spectrum.
That is a pretty good group. You could drop such a group into pretty much any faction driven campaign and feel good about it. The other factions do not hold up nearly as well. They range from pointless (Ciphers) to corrosive (Xaositects).

And even when we get to the Sensates themselves, their presentation in this book is garbage. Their big plans revealed are so lame that I am embarrassed for the authors. I don't think the Society of Sensation had to suck in this book, it just totally did. The entire bit about how Erin Darkflame Montgomery murdered the interviewer in order to preserve her secrets was dumb. It used up a lot of text space that served no purpose other than over hyping the big reveal which turned out to be less than nothing. Total disappointment. But for once out of all the factions, that is a problem with the writing in this book rather than reflective on any fundamental design flaws.

Although the mechanics for the Sensates are pretty Effed up too. But that is 2nd edition for you.

-Username17
name_here
Prince
Posts: 3346
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:55 pm

Post by name_here »

Yeah, the Sensates have a pretty idiotic secret. I mean, they want to win an Altar of the Lunnotar victory for everyone. Why on earth would you keep that secret? And why the Sensates of all people? They are the last faction that isn't chaotic bashit that I would expect to want that. Shit, you could have an entire Ascension Victory faction who scour the planes for any knowledge that could help them succeed, recruit everyone who can read to help, run a vast magical library containing an endless repository of spellbooks and cryptic bits of info that will come in handy to adventurers, and keep getting in fights with other factions because some factions don't believe in their goal and others don't approve of their methods. PCs could be members who get sent out on adventures because slaying an evil lich means they could study his transformation to learn more about the nature of souls and bodies.

But no, apparently the Slaaneshi cultists secretly want to transcend physical limitations and sensations and will kill to keep people from finding out. Because that makes sense.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

Chamomile:
Very nice. The Fated, the Free League, and the Mercykillers need some adjustment to make them protagonist friendly, but that's just tweaking.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

The Sensate leader has a perfect secret if you are a Sensate. It's an agenda that keeps her occupied and it doesn't put the Sensates in conflict with anyone, doesn't matter if it succeeds or fails, and it keeps her engaged and hiring security and counter-intel.

If her agenda was just blowjobs and cakes, she could get that easily and would have no reason to keep other factions out of the Sensates who want to use it for some more nefarious (or useful) purpose.
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Ancient History »

If I was Factol of the Sensates, my secret mission would be to find the Demiplane of Cocaine.
User avatar
Avoraciopoctules
Overlord
Posts: 8624
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:48 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by Avoraciopoctules »

If I was Factol of the Sensates, I would form a secret pact with the Guvners to develop methods for assigning every experience a discrete point value based on its educational potential.

That could lead to some entertaining moments, especially if you're playing it smart and ditch the XP system. People could get into fights over very subjective stuff. And if Planescape is about anything, it is about people fighting each other over really dumb stuff.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:Chamomile:
Very nice. The Fated, the Free League, and the Mercykillers need some adjustment to make them protagonist friendly, but that's just tweaking.
Not every faction needs to be a protagonist faction. You can have antagonist factions and even background factions. It might be better if you did. The Sensates succeed as a protagonist faction, and as a background faction. They aren't great as antagonists, because while their battlecry of "For the Lulz!" gives them plenty of opportunities to be antagonists, it does not create many opportunities for them to be particularly satisfying antagonists. You can put an end to Baron Grom's orphan tetris machine, but if he was just doing it because he wanted to see how offended people would get, he actually sort of won.

So anyway, while the Sensates pretty much succeed as a faction, none of the others do.

Athar: Doesn't play well with other PCs. No goals.
Believers: Mandatory Retirement for PCs. No goals.
Bleakers: Mandatory Retirement for PCs.
DoomGuard: Doesn't play well with other PCs. No agenda anyone can support.
Dustmen: Mandatory Retirement for PCs. No Goals.
Fated: Can't go on Adventures. Betrays Party. No agenda anyone can support.
Guvners: Can't go on Adventures.
Free League: Can't go on Adventures. No agenda anyone can support.
Harmonium: Can't go on Adventures.
Mercy Killers: Can't go on Adventures.
Anarchists: Betrays Party. No agenda anyone can support.
Xaositects: Betrays Party. No agenda anyone can support.


The Signers and the Ciphers actually can be player characters as written, it's just that no one gives a fuck because they don't have any explicable goals (in the case of the Ciphers: no goals at all).

-Username17
User avatar
Orion
Prince
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Orion »

wotmaniac wrote: Why all the jaded cynicism? If you go looking for "DM penis extension", then that's what you're gonna find... I mean, who the fuckity-fuck cares who takes care of street repairs or waste management?
Most everyone, I should think. That shit is critical to establishing atmosphere, and to a lesser extent, theme. Having buildings you busted up mysteriously repaired is upsetting in a different way from having the rubble lie there undisturbed (which is also upsetting). Having actual human work crews show up would be less unsettling, which is why we don't do that. A self-maintaining city enables a really direct exploration of the "concrete jungle" theme, since the city is literally a received natural environment the residents cannot control, but only adapt to. On the other hand, the self-maintaining city really does risk your ability to take faction conflict seriously because the more shit the city handles for you the less excusable it is to be that dysfunctional. And so on.
Oh, and about those factions. Yup, they are indeed all a bunch of incoherent assholes -- and good for them. It's called parody, and I find the factions to be a clever implementation of such (well, at least as far as D&D goes).
They may well be parody, but they are not cleverly implemented. The same idea occurred to me early on in this review, but the problem is that writing parody, especially playable parody, is not actually the same as throwing bullshit together ad hoc. If anything it takes more development work than a straight setting, since instead of letting plausibility guide your choices, you are repeatedly rejecting the plausible and then having to work out how whatever absurd premise you've committed to can possibly work in practice. When it comes to Planescape specifically, I think the major problem is that they opted for a society that was dysfunctional because of too little, rather than too much. For most civic functions they included at most one faction who gave a shit about performing it. The results are shitty and dystopian, but they don't actually give anything to fight over. They should have done the opposite: started with a list of issues, and made sure at least two factions are trying to do something about each of them. Draw the relationship web showing which groups turn to whom for what. Look at the Justicars (the mercy killers who hunt crinimals). There is apparently no explanation of why or how they do this, or what the Harmonium feels about it. There should be, because fleshing that out adds more and funnier black comedy.

Okay, if you're a Justicar you're an employee of a prison who goes around trying to capture people. Prisons don't normally have authority over people who aren't prisoners, so let's assume that the Justicars were formed to recapture escapees. That seems plausible and conceivably even acceptable to the police. Then add some grimdark: Sigil's court routinely try suspects in absentia. Once you're convicted you're legally considered an escapee even if you haven't been confined. In effect, the Justicars are bounty hunters who work for whomever can buy votes in a court-- whether it's the mercantile court the Takers run (nominally created to enforce fines and contracts against business, but self-authorized to collect on debts) or the criminal court run by the Guvnors. The big question mark here is why anyone wants or needs to put Justicars on the trail when the Harmonium already operate a police force. You could make the Mercy Killers a "bad guy" faction, hired only by the corrupt, or instead you could think reasons the Harmonium System leads to massive failures of justice. Here's my favorite: The Harmonium should be organized not to "enforce the law" but rather to "keep the peace." They work proactively to prevent violence and disturbance anywhere they consider part of the "public sphere," but do not actually give a shit about apprehending criminals or settling disputes. So if you murder someone's parents and then run off to a Harmonium neighborhood, you can sit in plain view sipping your margarita and watching the band, secure in the knowledge that the Harmonium will come down on anyone who tries to start shit with you. The harmonium has no prison and doesn't care about criminal justice, so they just pack you off to the Mercy Killer prison if they consider you a threat to peace. (Even though they are simultaneously fighting the Justicars in the streets, to stop them from fighting in the streets.)

There you go: Mercykiller PCs, Mercykiller villains, Harmonium allies and antagonists, and instances of faction co-operation and faction conflict. The result is damn creepy, and the kind of thing this book really should have been full of.
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

FrankTrollman wrote:Not every faction needs to be a protagonist faction.
I strenuously disagree, but it might be due to my poor communication up front. I don't care whether any particular faction is good for D&D PCs. That's a pretty arbitrary standard for a functional organization.

I do care that an organization support protagonists; that you have a reason that sane people would continue associating themselves with the organization, and continue advancing its goals. No-one says "I'm going to miscarry justice, just for jollies, and because I don't like Pete the Pickpocket's stupid face!" But a Mercykiller might say "There are only three types of people in the world: sheep, wolves, and shepherds. Pete the Pickpocket may not have done anything terrible yet, but he's shown his true colors. I know who he is, and I know what he is, and there's no way I can let a wolf out among sheep." Now, that's obviously a caricature, but it sketches out how a Mercykiller could be a protagonist with believable motivations and some sympathy, even as he becomes progressively eviler.

edit: or like Orion just did. That works too.
Last edited by fectin on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

My version of the Mercy Killers, Fated, and especially the Free League are not mustache twirling villains. The first two are selfish jerks, yes, but they both have very obvious real world analogues to people who are proven to be selfish jerks for the same reasons.

The Free League aren't even bad guys. They are specifically well-intentioned Libertarians who think that the world works best if everyone is left alone, and that people are decent enough that without extenuating circumstances encouraging viciousness or corruption, most everyone will turn out reasonably honest and productive. This is very naive, but it isn't even remotely villainous.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Orion wrote:For most civic functions they included at most one faction who gave a shit about performing it. The results are shitty and dystopian, but they don't actually give anything to fight over.
This right here. If you're going to do a political thing, you need defined areas of conflict. "We don't like their negative attitude" may be reason enough for the Signers and the Bleakers to not get along, but they need to have an actual conflict space to conduct their conflicts in and about.

Conflicts in the political sphere come both in terms of policy and in leadership. People want to move tax, spending, and regulatory dials around, but they also want to be in charge of things they care about. A major issue, probably the most major issue is that as you said there is almost no overlap between factions on what they want to lead, but there's a similar problem where no one seems to give a second shit about the policies that other factions are interested in. If the Bleakers want to increase the number of food distribution centers, they just do that - not only do they have executive control over that branch of government, they are the only group that seems to care one way or the other what the city's food security systems even are.

The only thing that isn't like that in official Sigil is Criminal Justice. The Mercy Killers want to do law enforcement and they want to do sentencing, and there is thus administrative conflict between them and the Guvners and Hard Heads. That's fine. That's cool even. In fact, factions should be like that about fucking everything. There should be rival firefighting companies brawling it out in the street like Gangs of New York.

But there should also be locations that people struggle over. Right now the Transcendental Order hangs out at the Gymnasium, and the Sensates and Heartless don't give an actual fuck because they have their own gymnasiums. Should be like Junta, where there are important feng shui sites around town that are struggled over. In Junta the "objective locations" for a coup are the Presidential Palace, the Chamber of Deputies, the Central Bank, the Train Station, and the Broadcasting Tower. I think it's pretty telling that while equivalents of those things exist, only one of them (the Chamber of Deputies) actually has any claimants. That's both weird and lame.

It's definitely true that Alpha Centauri has more interesting and more plausible factions, and that Junta has a more interesting and more comprehensible setup for struggling over control of a city. And you could definitely reform Sigil into something that was better by taking more elements from those sources. But I can't help wondering if it might be better to just start with a different planar metropolis with less baggage. Say Union or Finality instead.

The official plotline scraps all the factions and only writes up 3 replacements. And of those replacements, only one of them gets much a writeup anywhere (the Sons of Mercy). If you wanted to continue into the future, you'd need to writeup new factions mostly from scratch and that would offend Planescape loyalists. You seriously only have two years of game time to work with between the Factol's Manifesto and Faction War. I don't think there's a thing you can do with the city that isn't going to piss off the people who are also your target audience. And you're still stuck with all that Lady of Pain baggage, which is like Elministration on steroids. There's no way to sort that out without pissing on the cheerios of the setting's mouth breathing fans.

But if you started with Finality or Union, you could do whatever the fuck you wanted. Those places don't have their political factions written up in exhaustive detail. You could set it up so that there were a number of institutions that were "owned" by individual factions, and other institutions which were "contested" by multiple factions. You could have concrete policy sliders that different factions had different opinions about. You could have different precincts that had different ascendant factions in them and noticeably different policies. You could have different factions provide different competing services. You could go the whole way. And you wouldn't have to come up with a convoluted explanation of how your version of the Xaositects weren't annoying trolls whose reason for existence was to disrupt the game with Fishmalk behaviors. Because you could just not write anything like that in the first place.

If there's interest, I might even contribute to such a project.

-Username17
User avatar
Avoraciopoctules
Overlord
Posts: 8624
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:48 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Planar Metropolis settings for fantasy games are pretty cool in theory. I'd be happy to try writing up stuff for something like that when I get back from finals/vacation in the desert.

I'd probably aim for something smaller in scope, where you can actually count the major factions on one hand. Fleshing out something like the Xorn city in Beyond Countless Doorways would be fun.
Korgan0
Duke
Posts: 2101
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:42 am

Post by Korgan0 »

I've got all the RPG design experience of a dead fish, but that sounds like a really cool project.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

I'm guessing City of Brass has too much prewritten baggage and interacts with the wonky wish-economy too much to be a good idea for a planar metropolis to use?

How much should you reorganize the planar structure to accommodate a more detailed metropolis to supplant the need for Sigil? Do we want something less wonky than the Great Wheel, or is that biting more than one can chew?

Personally, if I was told to rewrite Sigil itself, I'd be tempted to upgrade it to the Eleven Day Empire; created when Britain switched from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian, losing 11 days that were subsequently bought by time travelers (the Faction Paradox) to use as a headquarters. That retains the general London feel, allows for alternate histories where magic exists and historical references without caring about RL accuracy.

Out of the list of likely D&D-style options, unless someone can think of better, my hat is totally thrown in for Finality.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
User avatar
Avoraciopoctules
Overlord
Posts: 8624
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:48 pm
Location: Oakland, CA

Post by Avoraciopoctules »

It is true that if you are writing a planar metropolis, the planes it is linked to and by extension the cosmology are important. Most of us know about Planescape's great wheel cosmology, but there's a number of other ways people could do it. Beyond Countless Doorways kinda handwaves it by saying the multiverse is hueg like xbox and every plane is simply connected to a handful of others. Pathfinder does a variant great wheel with a smaller number of outer planes and the inner planes set up as a series of walls between them and the Material. Eberron make planes = planets or something? I don't remember.
Post Reply