Fixing the Fantasy of Fantasy Gaming

[CatharzGodfoot]

A typical adult troll stands 9' tall and weighs 500 lbs.


But does anyone else find it ironic that the Pro-Skub crowd's counter is to start arguing about trolls?

[Red_Rob]

A large horse sized troll in full troll plate (even without it, but who are we kidding, he is in full plate or better) won't be climbing that ladder (it will break, IF he can even fit his huge hands and feet in it at all) and he won't be fitting through that hole either.

Noone is saying centaurs are the only problematic character type. They are just the perfect storm of large size, long body, odd limbs and extreme weight that invalidates the maximum number of possible adventure locales.

[K]

A large horse sized troll in full troll plate (even without it, but who are we kidding, he is in full plate or better) won't be climbing that ladder (it will break, IF he can even fit his huge hands and feet in it at all) and he won't be fitting through that hole either.

Noone is saying centaurs are the only problematic character type. They are just the perfect storm of large size, long body, odd limbs and extreme weight that invalidates the maximum number of possible adventure locales.

I agree. No one is defending trolls or any other unplayable monster.

I mean, I'd love to play a vampire but I'm not going to pretend that the inability to go outside during the day is not an adventure breaker.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Could you just play a dwarf centaur and call it a day?

A dwarf / mule / Centaur would totally kick ass.

Games Workship agrees - hence the creation of "Bull Centaurs" amongst the Chaos Dwarves.



Maybe we should just give all Centaurs Levitate like they were Daleks or something?

[mean_liar]

I'm waiting for the youtube video of a horse climbing a double ladder.

How about a single ladder?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg9pid93bdI

[K]

I'm waiting for the youtube video of a horse climbing a double ladder.

How about a single ladder?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg9pid93bdI

Aaaa, yes. Red Dead Redemption..... a game so glitched it even has swaps of townspeople and birds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYdCvN-ukRY

[K]

Could you just play a dwarf centaur and call it a day?

A dwarf / mule / Centaur would totally kick ass.

Games Workship agrees - hence the creation of "Bull Centaurs" amongst the Chaos Dwarves.



Maybe we should just give all Centaurs Levitate like they were Daleks or something?

Were-centaurs would totally work, as long as they were humans turning into centaurs. Horses turning into centaurs would just be fucked.

[fectin]

A dwarf / mule / Centaur would totally kick ass.

Games Workship agrees - hence the creation of "Bull Centaurs" amongst the Chaos Dwarves.



Maybe we should just give all Centaurs Levitate like they were Daleks or something? :lol:

Were-centaurs would totally work, as long as they were humans turning into centaurs. Horses turning into centaurs would just be fucked.

Don't we call those "3rd level wizards"? (Alter self. Even if human->centaur doesn't work, I think the other way around does.)

[K]

Games Workship agrees - hence the creation of "Bull Centaurs" amongst the Chaos Dwarves.

[image]

Maybe we should just give all Centaurs Levitate like they were Daleks or something?

Were-centaurs would totally work, as long as they were humans turning into centaurs. Horses turning into centaurs would just be fucked.

Don't we call those "3rd level wizards"? (Alter self. Even if human->centaur doesn't work, I think the other way around does.)

Not really. You need to be human for prolonged periods of time so you can ride in boats and sleep indoors when needed.

Plus, one good dungeon with a few ladders or squeeze-points and you'll be out of spells in a hurry.

[Prak]

The quadruped bonus doesn't apply to lifting things over your head, which I assume is the calculation you'd need for a centaur to pull himself up something. So you'd need a STR of 22.

Of course, no rope or ladder or tree limb is going to hold 2000 lbs, so the point is moot really.

Of course, nothing is going to convince him that centaurs are shitty adventurers or that it's not his divine right to bring a crippled character to the table.

I'm waiting for the youtube video of a horse climbing a double ladder.

In the case of a ladder, I'd count quadruped strength, as they do have something to brace against, but fine.

However, at least in my interpretation, the rope you buy from PHB could reasonably hold that much weight. Again if it can't, the centaur isn't the problem, the weight is the problem. So an ogre, troll, Willing Deformity (obese), or earth elemental creature has, again, the same issue. You're just singling out centaurs because you can't wrap your mind around a sentient equinoid moving through a dungeon.

And no, I'm not bothering with any youtube videos, of anything, because honestly, I simply don't care about your specious and absurd arguments that much.

A large horse sized troll in full troll plate (even without it, but who are we kidding, he is in full plate or better) won't be climbing that ladder (it will break, IF he can even fit his huge hands and feet in it at all) and he won't be fitting through that hole either.

Noone is saying centaurs are the only problematic character type. They are just the perfect storm of large size, long body, odd limbs and extreme weight that invalidates the maximum number of possible adventure locales.

I agree. No one is defending trolls or any other unplayable monster.

I mean, I'd love to play a vampire but I'm not going to pretend that the inability to go outside during the day is not an adventure breaker.

Pft. please. If you can't work around that, you're simply not trying.

[K]

The quadruped bonus doesn't apply to lifting things over your head, which I assume is the calculation you'd need for a centaur to pull himself up something. So you'd need a STR of 22.

Of course, no rope or ladder or tree limb is going to hold 2000 lbs, so the point is moot really.

Of course, nothing is going to convince him that centaurs are shitty adventurers or that it's not his divine right to bring a crippled character to the table.

I'm waiting for the youtube video of a horse climbing a double ladder.

In the case of a ladder, I'd count quadruped strength, as they do have something to brace against, but fine.

However, at least in my interpretation, the rope you buy from PHB could reasonably hold that much weight. Again if it can't, the centaur isn't the problem, the weight is the problem. So an ogre, troll, Willing Deformity (obese), or earth elemental creature has, again, the same issue. You're just singling out centaurs because you can't wrap your mind around a sentient equinoid moving through a dungeon.

Seriously, we are NOT defending those other bullshit characters. Why do you think this is some kind of winning argument?

Are you having a breakdown or something?

And no, I'm not bothering with any youtube videos, of anything, because honestly, I simply don't care about your specious and absurd arguments that much.

Noone is saying centaurs are the only problematic character type. They are just the perfect storm of large size, long body, odd limbs and extreme weight that invalidates the maximum number of possible adventure locales.

I agree. No one is defending trolls or any other unplayable monster.

I mean, I'd love to play a vampire but I'm not going to pretend that the inability to go outside during the day is not an adventure breaker.

Pft. please. If you can't work around that, you're simply not trying.

No one is saying that DMs can't make hyper-specialized adventures for your bullshit character or that other players can't make sacrifices on your behalf so that you can function.

We are saying that it's totally selfish and bullshit. Your crippled character is an unfair imposition on the DM and on other players. I honestly don't even want you playing at the table with that attitude because it probably bleeds over to other aspects of your play.

Understand? Your centaur does not play well with others, and the same goes for all the other bullshit characters people try to play. I honestly don't want your griffon/vampire/ogre/centaur/awakened moose/blind swordsmen/naga in my game because it's too much damned work as a fellow player or a DM.

[fectin]

stuff

Were-centaurs would totally work, as long as they were humans turning into centaurs. Horses turning into centaurs would just be fucked.

Don't we call those "3rd level wizards"? (Alter self. Even if human->centaur doesn't work, I think the other way around does.)

Not really. You need to be human for prolonged periods of time so you can ride in boats and sleep indoors when needed.

Plus, one good dungeon with a few ladders or squeeze-points and you'll be out of spells in a hurry.

Fair point. A hat of Alter Self then, command word, is 10800gp. 30 minutes per use too. 12000gp gets you continuous instead. A higher level caster doesn't even care though, because the duration is 10 min/level and it's a 2nd level spell. There's a wierd HD limit there though that I don't understand how to apply. More realistically, Permanency on Reduce Person is 2950gp (plus the cost of Reduce Person), and has nice benefits for a caster or ranged attacker.

Or just be a druid and wild shape into a monkey as needed.

[Maj]

Does the weight for a centaur come from the MM?

Not that I have any particular investment in the argument - I prefer to play in games where the characters can at least change into a universal form, be it fairy, centaur, human, whatever - but the average horse weighs half of what's being tossed around. An upper end draft horse might break a ton, though. Are centaurs all draft horses?

[fectin]

Does the weight for a centaur come from the MM?

Not that I have any particular investment in the argument - I prefer to play in games where the characters can at least change into a universal form, be it fairy, centaur, human, whatever - but the average horse weighs half of what's being tossed around. An upper end draft horse might break a ton, though. Are centaurs all draft horses?

"A centaur is about 7 feet tall and weighs about 2100 ponds."

[kzt]

The quadruped bonus doesn't apply to lifting things over your head, which I assume is the calculation you'd need for a centaur to pull himself up something. So you'd need a STR of 22.

Of course, no rope or ladder or tree limb is going to hold 2000 lbs, so the point is moot really.

It's not a big deal. You just haul around a wagon with an A-frame, a winch, spikes and anchors for the winch and a few hundred feet of 2 inch thick manila rope. 30 minutes of work and he's right down that hole.

Well, the SECOND trap door might be a big deal. ....

[K]

stuff

Don't we call those "3rd level wizards"? (Alter self. Even if human->centaur doesn't work, I think the other way around does.)

Not really. You need to be human for prolonged periods of time so you can ride in boats and sleep indoors when needed.

Plus, one good dungeon with a few ladders or squeeze-points and you'll be out of spells in a hurry.

Fair point. A hat of Alter Self then, command word, is 10800gp. 30 minutes per use too. 12000gp gets you continuous instead. A higher level caster doesn't even care though, because the duration is 10 min/level and it's a 2nd level spell. There's a wierd HD limit there though that I don't understand how to apply. More realistically, Permanency on Reduce Person is 2950gp (plus the cost of Reduce Person), and has nice benefits for a caster or ranged attacker.

Or just be a druid and wild shape into a monkey as needed.

Those are all mid to high level options. At the point where you could afford an item like that, you just having someone cast Overland Flight on you every day and carry some Potions of Gaseous Form... heck, just Dimension Dooring and Teleporting with scrolls or items is an option.

[PhoneLobster]

Noone is saying centaurs are the only problematic character type.

I agree. No one is defending trolls or any other unplayable monster.

seriously, we are NOT defending those other bullshit characters.

Bipeds are a lot more maneuverable than horses, so trolls are just going to be fine where horses are not. Big bipeds like trolls can turn around, bend at the waist, climb.... the list is long of things a biped can do and a horse can't.

Now, you could just make flexible centaurs like deviated from the horse body-plan but keeping cosmetics, but they'd have to move like horse-centipedes and that's just not something that centaur-lovers want. What they want is a creature that moves like a mounted man, and the limitations on that are obvious.

Sorry K. YOU specifically defended Trolls and even what amounts to "centipede-taurs" as "fine". Hell five minutes ago Naga and by Frank's original argument exoskelatal mantis like insectoid centaurs were all totally cool because of your bullshit and rather wanky "double jointed super supple flexible version Large size!" claims.

Suddenly all those things are out too? Well, gee, I guess all the criticisms of your position as excluding vast swathes of viable characters are actually rather accurate hey?

Sure maybe NOW you are no longer defending those as fine, but hey, thats the nature of your shifting goal posts through this whole losing argument of yours.

And the counter of the "ANY large PC breaks by your argument" is still a valid counter to your argument because support for large PCs IS a damn important thing.

Not to mention that the other half of that counter is that "Any SMALL NPC breaks by your argument as well" is THE BIGGEST FUCKING HOLE EVER in your stupid argument.

Seriously, Minotaurs as characters, Goblins as enemies break by your argument. Which suggest that your prefered break free game, without those things in, is a pretty damn shitty fantasy heart breaker now isn't it?

[K]

Noone is saying centaurs are the only problematic character type.

I agree. No one is defending trolls or any other unplayable monster.

seriously, we are NOT defending those other bullshit characters.

Bipeds are a lot more maneuverable than horses, so trolls are just going to be fine where horses are not. Big bipeds like trolls can turn around, bend at the waist, climb.... the list is long of things a biped can do and a horse can't.

Now, you could just make flexible centaurs like deviated from the horse body-plan but keeping cosmetics, but they'd have to move like horse-centipedes and that's just not something that centaur-lovers want. What they want is a creature that moves like a mounted man, and the limitations on that are obvious.

Sorry K. YOU specifically defended Trolls and even what amounts to "centipede-taurs" as "fine". Hell five minutes ago Naga and by Frank's original argument exoskelatal mantis like insectoid centaurs were all totally cool because of your bullshit and rather wanky "double jointed super supple flexible version Large size!" claims.

Suddenly all those things are out too? Well, gee, I guess all the criticisms of your position as excluding vast swathes of viable characters are actually rather accurate hey?

Sure maybe NOW you are no longer defending those as fine, but hey, thats the nature of your shifting goal posts through this whole losing argument of yours.

And the counter of the "ANY large PC breaks by your argument" is still a valid counter to your argument because support for large PCs IS a damn important thing.

Not to mention that the other half of that counter is that "Any SMALL NPC breaks by your argument as well" is THE BIGGEST FUCKING HOLE EVER in your stupid argument.

Seriously, Minotaurs as characters, Goblins as enemies break by your argument. Which suggest that your prefered break free game, without those things in, is a pretty damn shitty fantasy heart breaker now isn't it?

I was just saying that trolls don't fail on the maneuverability front, and that's a loooong way from saying that they are playable characters. They do fail as playable characters.

And you are going to have to explain your whole "small PCs" point, because I honestly have no idea what you are be talking about, or even what you could be talking about. Honest.

[Prak]

The quadruped bonus doesn't apply to lifting things over your head, which I assume is the calculation you'd need for a centaur to pull himself up something. So you'd need a STR of 22.

Of course, no rope or ladder or tree limb is going to hold 2000 lbs, so the point is moot really.

Of course, nothing is going to convince him that centaurs are shitty adventurers or that it's not his divine right to bring a crippled character to the table.

I'm waiting for the youtube video of a horse climbing a double ladder.

In the case of a ladder, I'd count quadruped strength, as they do have something to brace against, but fine.

However, at least in my interpretation, the rope you buy from PHB could reasonably hold that much weight. Again if it can't, the centaur isn't the problem, the weight is the problem. So an ogre, troll, Willing Deformity (obese), or earth elemental creature has, again, the same issue. You're just singling out centaurs because you can't wrap your mind around a sentient equinoid moving through a dungeon.

Seriously, we are NOT defending those other bullshit characters. Why do you think this is some kind of winning argument?

Are you having a breakdown or something?

Hadn't read to the part where you conceded that other ginormous characters have the same problem and said the centaur was just an exemplar when I responded.

And no, I'm not bothering with any youtube videos, of anything, because honestly, I simply don't care about your specious and absurd arguments that much.

I agree. No one is defending trolls or any other unplayable monster.

I mean, I'd love to play a vampire but I'm not going to pretend that the inability to go outside during the day is not an adventure breaker.

Pft. please. If you can't work around that, you're simply not trying.

No one is saying that DMs can't make hyper-specialized adventures for your bullshit character or that other players can't make sacrifices on your behalf so that you can function.

We are saying that it's totally selfish and bullshit. Your crippled character is an unfair imposition on the DM and on other players. I honestly don't even want you playing at the table with that attitude because it probably bleeds over to other aspects of your play.

Understand? Your centaur does not play well with others, and the same goes for all the other bullshit characters people try to play. I honestly don't want your griffon/vampire/ogre/centaur/awakened moose/blind swordsmen/naga in my game because it's too much damned work as a fellow player or a DM.

Hey, K? I'm not saying I have some "divine right" to play a centaur. I'm saying "Your reasons why I can't are flimsy. Convince me." So far my every counter argument involves my character carrying some extra equipment. Hell, a centaur is ECL 4-6 (depending on how you do it). By that point, he could be carrying around a "shrink me for trap doors" item and a ramp in a bag of holding, or at least an iron ladder and some double thickness silk rope in a bag of holding. Or, hell, I spend like 1/6th my wealth by level and have a few potions of gaseous form for the dreaded "ladder and trap door" situation. (which I just noticed you mentioned as a later option)

On a completely unrelated note, K, how's that law school (you know, with probably a decent focus on argumentation and debate) going? Good use of money?

And you are going to have to explain your whole "small PCs" point, because I honestly have no idea what you are be talking about, or even what you could be talking about. Honest.

Any dungeon made by small creatures would pose problems to medium size characters (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves) exactly the same as those posed to larger and bigger creatures by dungeons made by medium creatures.

[K]

Hey, K? I'm not saying I have some "divine right" to play a centaur. I'm saying "Your reasons why I can't are flimsy. Convince me." So far my every counter argument involves my character carrying some extra equipment. Hell, a centaur is ECL 4-6 (depending on how you do it). By that point, he could be carrying around a "shrink me for trap doors" item and a ramp in a bag of holding, or at least an iron ladder and some double thickness silk rope in a bag of holding. Or, hell, I spend like 1/6th my wealth by level and have a few potions of gaseous form for the dreaded "ladder and trap door" situation. (which I just noticed you mentioned as a later option)

If that's your best plan for dealing with the problems of a centaur, you are going to be a burden to the party about halfway through your first adventure.

It'll play like this:

"Oh noes, I don't have enough potions of gaseous form for this dungeon/building/forest.... I guess we have to leave guys." or "Looks like my ramp isn't long enough, I guess we have to leave." "Guess my shrinking item won't last long enough, I guess I can't ride the boat. I guess we have to leave." or "Oh no, I ran out of potions so I guess we have to go back to a city."

Seriously. Have you played a centaur in someone's game for an extended amount of time? It sounds like you are talking out of your ass, because everyone else who has chimed in has only talked about how awful it was.

[CatharzGodfoot]

And you are going to have to explain your whole "small PCs" point, because I honestly have no idea what you are be talking about, or even what you could be talking about. Honest.

Any dungeon made by small creatures would pose problems to medium size characters (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves) exactly the same as those posed to larger and bigger creatures by dungeons made by medium creatures.

The point of this argument is that the game is human-centric. It isn't goblin-centric, and it isn't centaur-centric.

It's totally cool to play a centaur-centric game where you only go into dungeons that have ramps and large areas to turn around in. Maybe you can't play an unmounted human in such a game, because she can't keep up

It's fine to play a goblin-centric game where you run around in tiny tunnels. Maybe you can't play a human because humans are too big to fit in said tunnels.

Part of being human-centric is that there is an expectation that player characters can go on the the same adventures that humans can. If they can't, that's a problem.

[K]

And you are going to have to explain your whole "small PCs" point, because I honestly have no idea what you are be talking about, or even what you could be talking about. Honest.

Any dungeon made by small creatures would pose problems to medium size characters (humans, elves, orcs, dwarves) exactly the same as those posed to larger and bigger creatures by dungeons made by medium creatures.

I've got about 50 Dungeon Magazines sitting next to my desk. Guess how many have small-sized dungeons in the 150+ adventures in them.

Zero.

An exception to the rule does not disprove the rule. People don't think in terms of "what if one ton characters needed to get access to this adventure?" They could, I suppose, but they don't. They think in medium-size.

I've admitted that you could get DMs to cater to your character. My argument is that doing that is an unfair imposition.

[PhoneLobster]

But by K's rules of the "tyranny" of "lets skip it" the small sized dungeon makes the actions of the medium sized characters oppressive to the small characters in the group... or the actions of the small characters in the groups saying "lets do it" as greedy towards the medium ones.

Meaning that by Frank and K's rules of body size and railroading anti tyranny (because only by being on the railroad are you anti-tyrannical?) not only is Large out out out, but so is small...

Which leaves us with what? human sized humanoids (aka humans) who cannot breath underwater, fly or climb especially better than average (remember, expert mountain climber HUMAN brings the tyranny of cliffside adventures!) have no notable contextual weaknesses (3E Rogue brings the tyranny of "man I'm sick of fighting things immune to sneak attack!") and who never disagree with the fucking "this dungeon I made with no consideration toward your characters and only this fucking dungeon" railroad. Yes. Thats right unremarkable humans only as both PCs AND as NPCs or by their definition the world breaks.

And that is a fucking shitty narrow minded game plan.

All because the core of the argument is STILL "lets skip it" will break the game. Oh yeah sure they are backing down now even from that, quibbling that "lets skip it" is now a fuzzy grey area where everything they (currently) tell us is OK is violating the strict law of lets skip it, and the rest of the universe (currently human sized and smaller humanoids only!) is still doing it... but in an OK way.

And yet repeatedly point after point they have been forced to back down and away from various claims like "trolls are OK", hell as of Frank's old iteration Naga, something explicitly ruled in by Frank have NOW been ruled explicitly out by K! And I fully expect Gnomes and Goblins to get the next kick in the nuts.

And again seriously. If it weren't Frank who presented this bullshit we would not be having this argument. Seriously Imagine the horses not being allowed inside argument if it had come from Shadzar no really. Where would we be now? Discussing something sensible perhaps and laughing at the fool who said players who sometimes say "lets skip this one" were greedy tyrants?

[Orion]

As far as I can tell, Frank and K's position is that the game breaks if most but not all PCs can go in the dungeons, not if none of them can. So Small enemies do not actually break the game. Small PCs might, depending on how many party members need to be able to go in before it's a problem that others can't.

[fectin]

So, Darth Rabbitt's accidental baiting aside, has this really been three days of high drama over "Centaurs have some non-obvious drawbacks which can sometimes make them work poorly in a normal party"?