The Mundane Melee fighter can go fuck himself.

[PhoneLobster]

I'm Lord Mistborn you may remember me from...

Wow. Really I thought this guy's tiny brain had forgotten about us.

Instead he is back to remind us he is so bad at internet forums he thinks he is some kind of genius.

[Username17]

Truth is, most archery was fired in volleys at ranges of hundreds of yards. And it's actually kind of hard to hit anything at that range. That's why we had volleys of arrows. Even hitting a moving target at anything like 50 feet is kind of a feat. And if you do, the guy next to your target runs you through with a sword and that's the end of it. This shit with Legolas is so unrealistic that it's basically Anime levels of bullshit. So if you're setting "Shooting with a bow" at super anime mythic legend as a *starting* point, and setting melee fighters at "more or less realistic" as the pinnacle, you are smoking crack and need to set the pipe down.

Truth is: most melee troops stuck to big lines where they could hide behind shield walls. None of that shit means dick in a game about elite warriors having skirmishes. Taking down monsters in the woods is way more akin to hunting than it is to battlefields with formations with thousands of people in them. And while "Boar Spears" are a thing, "Deer Swords" are not. Really, most hunting is done with a bow.

For the sort of "four guys versus a forest monster" situation that is most D&D, the realism arguments fall squarely into the ranged weapons camp. People who pull out an ax and go into melee with bears are generally considered to be idiots and don't tend to last very long.

We want to support people fighting monsters with swords, not because there is any realistic reason to do that, but because it is awesome. And that is why if anyone is going to take a sword and fight a dragon, they are going to need to be a god damn super hero. The whole concept of the realistic swordsman is stupid. Realistically, people wouldn't attempt to fight monsters with swords. Hell, people don't fight bears, hippos, or tigers with swords (I am aware of people who had a machete being ambushed by large predators and winning, but that is not the same thing). The shortest range weapon anyone takes to fight dangerous predators is a long spear. Monsters with claws are really dangerous, and realistic people don't put themselves in range of that shit.

The bottom line is that there is no place for a realistic mundane swordsman on a monster hunt, because real people really go on monster hunts and they don't take mundane swordsmen.

-Username17

[ishy]

Even if before you talk about magical types you have to acknowledge that "archery" is a thing and players are totally going to want to have and people want "uses a bow" be a major part of their character.

Not in D&D though.
Yeah, sometimes people say they want to pick up a bow, but then someone'll point out that archers are fucking boring in D&D and they'll pick something that is slightly more interesting to play.

[Username17]

Even if before you talk about magical types you have to acknowledge that "archery" is a thing and players are totally going to want to have and people want "uses a bow" be a major part of their character.

Not in D&D though.
Yeah, sometimes people say they want to pick up a bow, but then someone'll point out that archers are fucking boring in D&D and they'll pick something that is slightly more interesting to play.

Actually, gotta say that one sees a lot of archers in D&D, AD&D and Pathfinder. In every edition.

-Username17

[Aryxbez]

I don't really see it necessary to block Mistborn, and I imagine this conversation can be worth talking about to better reach an understanding, and so that we have stuff to talk about (those gaming den lulls are truly quite tragic to see). He did mention "Low mobility", a notion I can agree with, unless the slow character in question has abilities to counter flyers and ranged attacks. Whether its throwing attacks that crash fliers, sword beams, or pulls that bring them to their melee range. Even deflecting their attacks, encouraging them to close into melee perhaps (if it can melee that is). Otherwise, fast mobility to keep the pressure on the enemy can be a simple solution, so long as it upgrades over time obviously (flight, and teleports that even follow them as they escape).

in high fantasy martial arts should=super powers. End of story. There is no reason not to.

I do agree, though getting into Charles Atlas Superpowers, still has the previous problem that's been stated. That, their powersource still limits the non-rules functions they could make up and get away with. However, I do think that topic should be revisited into discussion.

but then someone'll point out that archers are fucking boring in D&D and they'll pick something that is slightly more interesting to play.

Which, sounds like one should then redesign archery to be more interesting to play. Aside from Green Arrow swag arrows, firing increasingly absurd things (yourself, arrows into bees, shoes & elf ears as improvised lethal arrows), suppressive shots (Like 4th's unerrata'd Spitting Cobra Stance), High-pull pinning/forced movement (Scorpion King style), and a one man volley (shooting everyone ye can see, or exploding the ground so hard it creates shockwaves).

This is true, even in Monster Hunters, game of man-level hunters they wield truly unrealistic weapons.

This isn't an inherent problem with melee users, this is an inherent issue with the tropes of D&D.

All for abandoning D&D tropes that only serve to limit the warrior types, such tropes only sacred in when they produce good ideas, and useless the moment they go bad.

[Lago PARANOIA]

but then someone'll point out that archers are fucking boring in D&D and they'll pick something that is slightly more interesting to play.

1.) In 3E and 4E D&D, melee combat has gotten much, much more expansion material than ranged combat. Seriously, I think that for every 4 melee combat feats you'll get one ranged combat feat. With this sort of artificial subsidy I wouldn't be surprised that people find melee combat more interesting. In the same way people find wizards more interesting than psions.

2.) I think that it's rather lame and sad that people find archers boring. Because ranged combat has tactical variety that melee combat doesn't. Stuff like firing from illusions, baiting people into trapped squares, shuffling zones of control (even with simple shit like smokesticks attached to an arrow), and just sniping from treetops.

[zugschef]

Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".

The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".

Nicely put.

But missing the point. Put Legolas or Robin Hood against a character who can summon archangels and demons or can disintegrate an opponent or fireball them from outside the effective range of a bow or whatever and see who wins.

You're still dealing with Angel Summoner vs BMX Bandit. So unless your arrows decapitate or you can shoot someone from 7 leagues away you're still on the "Mundane" power arc compared to the Wizard and to a lesser extent the Cleric or any magic user in general.

The funny thing here is that we're arguing that melee users are intrinsically shit, yet as soon as we abandon the D&D bullshit tropes and go to, say, Star Wars, suddenly Melee users (the Jedi) are fucking 8 kinds of badass and on a different power level than everyone else.

This isn't an inherent problem with melee users, this is an inherent issue with the tropes of D&D.

The argument that you are basically making is that a 15th level cleric and a 1st level BMX bandit don't mesh.

There is no reason, like at all, that 15th level BMX bandits can't summon an avatar of the god of all BMX bandits to lay the smack down.

The problem is that the grognards don't want to really level up BMX bandit ever. They always want to do the same shit. First they want to do it in a 5m halfpipe, then 8, then 10,... but it's still riding a BMX in a fuckin' halfpipe.

[RadiantPhoenix]

There is no reason, like at all, that 15th level BMX bandits can't summon an avatar of the god of all BMX bandits to lay the smack down.

"The first thing you need to know about a 15th10th5th-level BMX bandit is that he doesn't actually need a physical bike. He can summon his bike-shaped Phantom Steed at will."

[JonSetanta]

Would an archer that shoots lockdown debuffs be too powerful?

Something like an Arcane Archer but without spells, just an ability every level.

[infected slut princess]

To insist that the Future Evolution of the RPG games requires the Fighter to becomes MORE than a Fighter is to say the Fighter is, somehow, inadequate as it stands. The Fighter needs to have powers to let him cut off a dragon's dick with a single attack and automatically pass all his anal circumference checks without magical aid. But since the concept of the Fighter does not include these things, the concept of the Fighter must go. But concept only becomes obsolete if we presuppose that FIGHTRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr concept becomes obsolete at a certain point. Basically, Fighter fappers want to do the following at 19 of 20 levels in the game: 1) mack some bitches, 2) get the killing blow on the boss monster every time, and 3) do random stuff that makes their team win.

These needs are satisfied by giving the Fighter some powers at level 1 that stay relevant the entire game, even when the wizards are making energy sauce of cosmic genesis and pizzas of infinite decapitato. These powers are: 1) charm person at will, -10 save penalty if target is a slut, 2) if there is a Fighter in the party, the boss monster keeps fighting normally when it should be otherwise get the [Dead] or [Dying] condition, and can only take damage at that point by weapon damage from a Fighter. 3) cast wish once per hour as an (Ex) ability.

[Wiseman]

I think when people want to play the sword guy, their probably imagining something like this.


And you could make stats so that that sword guy/BMX bandit, comes out with a 50% chance of winning, but then you have to deal with the headache of figuring out how in the nine hells that "mundane guy" is actually able to do anything at all to the dragon and still run of RAELISM.

Thus, it's the fighter as a concept that needs to go. Didn't the last version of this thread have people coming up with fighter replacements? At least that was as far as I read.

EDIT: Ninja'd. Though it kind of meshes with what I'm saying.

[Mistborn]

The funny thing here is that we're arguing that melee users are intrinsically shit, yet as soon as we abandon the D&D bullshit tropes and go to, say, Star Wars, suddenly Melee users (the Jedi) are fucking 8 kinds of badass and on a different power level than everyone else.

This isn't an inherent problem with melee users, this is an inherent issue with the tropes of D&D.

and that was my point all along. Nothing mandates that melee characters have to suck, but tropes D&D attaches to it's melee users suck. The problem is that people are extremly attached to those tropes, they deepthroat Conan cock and want that to be a core option even at the cost of shitting over the rest of the game.

[infected slut princess]

LOL THAT GAY DRAGON NEEDS TO ROLL A 13+ TO HIT THAT GUY

[Maxus]

LOL THAT GAY DRAGON NEEDS TO ROLL A 13+ TO HIT THAT GUY

There is a fly in this room with me. He zips around me and he is just a little too fast and agile for me to hit him.

This fly is in no way a threat to me surviving the day.

[Mistborn]

LOL THAT GAY DRAGON NEEDS TO ROLL A 13+ TO HIT THAT GUY

It's a 5e dragon, it can't even smash open a closed door.

[Rawbeard]

I have no idea how the fly beats your CMD...

[JonSetanta]

Does the fighter battling the dragon have magic equipment and an artifact sword or not?

[Prak]

The Avengers could seriously be an example of how to do "Fighting Man" characters. Captain America was put at the peak of human ability with a potion, and fights with a shield that was made for him. Thor is big and stronger than a human, and fights with a magical hammer that was given to him. Iron Man is a normal guy with high intelligence who made magical armour to make himself a hero level threat. Black Widow is a martial arts master with some special gear--notably shock gauntlets. Hawkeye is a master of the bow with trick arrows. The Hulk is basically a guy who turns into a giant because he was altered through magic.

The defining trait of all of these characters, short of Black Widow, is "given or made special items which defy reality." Hulk's "item" is just a magical curse. As much as I hate to suggest it because I know there are people who don't want their concept to be "ancestral weapon," that's seriously what some of the most iconic pop culture Fighting Men have behind them.

However, there's still a difference between Captain America and "Schmuck #32 given vibranium shield." Cap't is basically a paragon of LG with a serum to make him the paragon of humanity, and he can use his shield to great effect because he trained with it under high stress conditions for years. At the least, you have to take all your civilian schmucks and find the ones with the hearts of gold. Thor is basically a half ogre with better intelligence if he doesn't have his hammer, but he's "Worthy"-- even the Hulk can't lift it. Hawkeye is the closest to a bog standard Fighter, and he has at least a decade of training with his bow. He's essentially what a 10th level fighter should be--except he has to replenish his magical swag between fights.

If you want a character who's shtick isn't "kind of special, and was given special shit on top of that," you want Loki. Loki's class is not Fighting Man, though-- at least not in the way that the Avengers are. Loki would be pretty well represented as Illusionist3/Rogue7. Sometimes he has his own magical swag, but in The Dark World, he's got a dagger, sleight of hand and illusion magic. On Friday, you can all go see how that works out for him (hint: really well, actually).

Seriously, I really hate suggesting it, but if you want fighters to be a thing, you have to give them "Magic Swag" as a low level ability, probably no later than level 4 or so. Otherwise you're just one of "The Warriors Three and Sif," one of those guys who follow Thor around and do the clean up work after he fells the rock giant in one blow.

[Maxus]

Does that magic equipment make a layer of fireproof utter resilience which means he can't be stomped? Does that artifact sword cut through whatever it touches and either freezes stuff from the inside out, cleave whatever it touches in half all the way through, or eradicate something like Voidstone does?

There's magic equipment, sure, but you're gonna need to hellacious bling to win that fight.

[virgil]

Do you know what we need? We should have a comprehensive list of fighter threads; add that extra touch by labeling whether they are attempts to fix them or attempts to tell you why they're bad.

[Rawbeard]

As far as I remember Black Widow has the soviet version of Captn's potion, so only Hawkeye has to work with "normal guy who aims real good + equipment" going for him. Poor Hawkeye.

[JonSetanta]

Thor is basically a half ogre with better intelligence if he doesn't have his hammer, but he's "Worthy"-- even the Hulk can't lift it.

I thought it was because Thor was strong enough to lift it.

[Whipstitch]

I always kinda figured Loki's just a Beguiler who happens to have stupidly good physical attributes/defenses via MC favoritism/Jotun template. No gnarly sneak attack--he'd rather gloat than insta-gib--just Armored & Surprise Spellcasting plus enough raw Strength and evocation items to do a middling job of being his own beat stick once he's established battlefield control.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Do you know what we need? We should have a comprehensive list of fighter threads; add that extra touch by labeling whether they are attempts to fix them or attempts to tell you why they're bad.

So, in other words, you want a list of fighter threads, but with both a title{1} and a subtitle{2}?

{1}: "Threads about fighters"
{2}: "Threads about why fighters are bad"

[virgil]

Sure, why not.