More Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Voss]

Wow, you're leaving out a hell of a lot. Like the vocal minority of the anti-agonizer crowd who threw a major shit fit and started claiming bizarre shit like anyone who bought a model of a tortured imaginary animal was clearly going to start torturing real animals and work their way up to becoming serial killers.


Yes, quite a few of the indifferent crowd treated the whiners like shit, but a quite a few of the whiners acted just as badly. But there were also a fairly neutral crowd in the middle that wanted both sides to shut the hell up and stop being so crazy. Mostly the topics gone, because *gasp* people on the internet have the attention span of a week or so.

And yes, beast torture and conditioning was well-established in the Skorne fluff. They aren't nice people. As a Skorne player myself, I think it fits in just fine. I wuv my tortured baby elephant! I'm in the middle of painting it now, as it happens.

[Crissa]

That really sounds flimsy, Voss.

Foisting baby-animal-torture as a front-line item onto a story people are invested in is rude. Suggesting that liking fictionalized baby animal torture leads to real animal torture is not beyond imagining, or reality.

Taking your point another step - why would you argue about it? It's an ugly unit that some players of the faction didn't like. Arguing for it is rather like saying 'God believes in you' to an atheist. It's an insult atop a fairy tale position.

-Crissa

[PhoneLobster]

Like the vocal minority

They were a minority, so I didn't mention them.

The crazy from the pro agonizer crowd however was dominant.

Unsurprisingly really considering the starting point they were working from.

Its not EASY to basically say "How dare this kinda sick thing sicken you!" without sounding crazy.

was clearly going to start torturing real animals and work their way up to becoming serial killers.

They were probably just confused by the way so many of the pro agonizer bitches were saying stuff that implied they akready were serial killers.

Like "I wish I could torture you like an agonizer" and the even more subtle, "I love serial killing".

I mean to this day the last tamest rumblings still has those guys publicly stating they would like to pour gasoline on real people and set them on fire.

That's kinda Serial killer.

Mostly the topics gone

Well, actually as demonstrated its still kicking around in the forum and has its own whopping great icon linking to its own little shop from the main page.

So its hardly gone. Its just that if you see where its still kicking around... all the people who dared to openly disliked the agonizer are just plain gone. Or utterly fuming in silence.

I wuv my tortured baby elephant! I'm in the middle of painting it now, as it happens.

And as such I'm not especially sympathetic with your aesthetic tastes.

But, and here is the difference between a functional community and a dysfunctional one...

You and one thousand backup jerks are NOT running around wanking over disgusting little sadistic fantasies, explicit threats of murder and a concerted effort (with moderator backing) to drive all criticism no matter how incredibly minor or personally subjective from the forum by means of flame and pitchforks.

I mean seriously, when you get right down to it it was a debate about "I think model X is ugly" and the pro PP is always perfect goons burnt the god damn community to the ground over it. Then PP came back and decided to sell commemorative coffee mugs and t-shirts celebrating the great victory against their own customers.

[Crissa]

http://www.cafepress.com/privateerpress.179806353

Ahh.

Knowing the forum topic, that's really tasteless. Better to make fun of customers, one supposes.

-Crissa

[Koumei]

I agree that the model looks ugly and crap, and I'll also agree that torturing anything is not a nice thing to do (and thus, it shows that the army in question is indeed not nice). The merch is also in bad taste, and it's odd to see that much of a "let's be pricks to our userbase" attitude.

That being said:

1200635922[/unixtime]]
Suggesting that liking fictionalized baby animal torture leads to real animal torture is not beyond imagining, or reality.

It's very rare for people to actually follow such a slippery slope. I mean, I talk about stabbing things in the face on a regular basis, due to playing roleplaying games. Some of these also set fire to people. I don't think I could ever actually do either of those things. The same goes for most gamers I know.

We could even dig through all other arguments that hinge on a slippery slope, such as "If you cheat in a D&D game, then you'll cheat in high-stakes poker, and you'll live a life completely without honour.", "If you download a movie, you'd steal a car, too.", "If you smack a child, then it's only a matter of time before you chainsaw them in half.", "If you hug your child, then it's only a matter of time before you molest them." and of course "If you buy a single mini from GW, you'll end up spending a thousand dollars or more fielding a complete army."

Shit, wait, that last one seems to be true. I was also going to throw in some random "let's insult the Wapanese" thing, but none jumped immediately to mind. Anyway, the point is, going from "talking about torturing fictitious creatures." to "actually torturing real animals or people." is a long shot.

But the people who talk about wanting to do so, and sounding as though they enjoy it, they come across as either "hardcore 13 year old boys" (you know the kind. They always have to be edgy and hardcore and more Xtreme than everyone else.) or lunatics.

From the sound of it, I'd bank on the former but not rule out the latter.

[Crissa]

Koumei, slippery-slope arguments are to be held in one's mind as caution, and not very useful alone.

However, there is a connection between accepting baby-animal fiction and baby-animal torture, which perhaps isn't as rare as you might hope. That then leads to other, what we would call anti-social behavior - not because of a slippery slope, but because of a growing experimentation with anti-social behavior.

When you are in a forum, you aren't playing a game. When you advocate actual baby-animal-torture or other-poster-torture... That isn't a slippery slope. That's invoking an atmosphere where actual baby-animal-torture is ignored, glossed over, apologized for, accepted.

The difference between there and here is where the behavior ends: It should end with the moderators (aka 'the adults') and at the end of the day. When Frank advocates burning someone's family, at the end of his post, he's more than willing to step past someone advocating the same to him, because we're discussing a game, and we can sit down at the table and play, even if our opinions differ. We're willing to pull up chairs and stop the argument, and move onto the substance...

...Which is the opposite of what Phonelobster is suggesting happened.

Lastly, if they spent their time torturing the titan into being in eternal agony... One would expect it to stylistically match the remainder of the army with armor plates welded to it, flags and fins sticking from it, blacks tied to its nose and flaying limbs.

It's really an ugly model, and looks like someone needed to finish today's titan without taking the time to make the angular, regular details across the model and instead took a lump of green stuff with a face and pressed a gaping wound texture here and there and called it done.

-Crissa

[Captain_Bleach]

I just compromised and thought that all vocal sides are wrong in their own way; the pro-Torture for being jerks, and the anti-torture trying to continue fighting a losing battle against all odds on a message board.

[PhoneLobster]

Ah, I see.

Publicly advocating torture and murder is bad.

But publicly opposing those who do is EQUALLY as bad.

fighting a losing battle against all odds on a message board

Wait, did you just say what I thought you said?

Just sayin' is all.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200693662[/unixtime]]Ah, I see.

Publicly advocating torture and murder is bad.

But publicly opposing those who do is EQUALLY as bad.

fighting a losing battle against all odds on a message board

Wait, did you just say what I thought you said?

Just sayin' is all.

I'm not saying that they're equally wrong, just that both are wrong in their own way.

People write all sorts of shit on the Internet all the time. I learned to just ignore it. Unless the Privateer Press, not the forum goers, publicly announced that torture was okay against those that disagreed with their product. If it's a bunch of jerks on a an Internet forum, then they are wasting their time. Seriously, there are so many things on the Internet to get worked up about, it's not worth arguing against the people who are for it; it won't change their minds, and if they are doing said actions in real life, it would be a much better option to contact the authorities.

[JonSetanta]

Aw damn. Thread ain't makin me laugh any more. Sort of... sad now.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200712136[/unixtime]]Aw damn. Thread ain't makin me laugh any more. Sort of... sad now.

Sorry to spoil it for you; just trying to clear things up between me and the lobster.

[Cielingcat]

1200712136[/unixtime]]Aw damn. Thread ain't makin me laugh any more. Sort of... sad now.

Cry is also an option.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Instead of talking about some internet argument, we should all talk about furrysex and how it just makes everything better.

[Cielingcat]

No.

[Koumei]

I agree with Ceilingcat on this one: No

...you know, that sounds a lot like Tempest Stormwind. Just replace "Furry sex" with "psionics". Seriously.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200718717[/unixtime]]Instead of talking about some internet argument, we should all talk about furrysex and how it just makes everything better.

It just makes thing worse.

[Leress]

1200721254[/unixtime]]I agree with Ceilingcat on this one: No

...you know, that sounds a lot like Tempest Stormwind. Just replace "Furry sex" with "psionics". Seriously.

...with "MIND BULLETS"!

Yes...because they are so much more balanced than vancian spell casting. Isn't it just pretty much an Magic point system?

Other than that Tempest does have a good head on his/her shoulders.

[Koumei]

Oh, Tempest seems pretty smart.

Way back when I was asking "From the perspective of standing up against level-appropriate monsters, are non-casters too weak, or are casters too strong? Because I see arguments for both, and we needn't argue that they're on the same field." he simply said "Disregarding specific things like Polymorph and Gate, casters are what you need to kill the monsters. Non-casters are too weak." while everyone else was still saying "It all depends on whether you mean a 1-on-1 arena fight or actual game experience, where they're just fine and equal, doing their own jobs..."

I don't even mind him liking psionics and thinking they're wonderful and more balanced than magic. If you view balance as a matter of "can't exploit loopholes to win the game utterly." then sure, he's probably right, because magic does have more options for that.

It's just the "You MUST include them in your game!" attitude I don't like. But that's only one thing that can be ignored there.

[JonSetanta]

Tempest stated the obvious, but did so in such an eloquent manner and slapped a fancy name on it that everyone perked up and paid attention.
I'll give him that credit.

[Koumei]

Yep. And then regretted putting his name on it, because he didn't actually intend on having a legion of people hailing him as a deity and using his name as a weapon in any argument regarding the fallacy (or not).

But it did unfortunately need to be said, so it's good someone did say it, and enough people even listened. On the WotC boards no less. That's a major achievement.

[Draco_Argentum]

1200718717[/unixtime]]Instead of talking about some internet argument, we should all talk about furrysex and how it just makes everything better.

But then Waesel moans, which makes everything less fun.

[Bigode]

Psionics can be said to be more balanced than magic in the sense of "hey, it has some design guidelines, such as don't allow solar gating at 17, or summoning of better spellcasters than oneself". Anyway, Tempest's as much an advocate of blade magic (which of course has its own slew of design problems, yet also doesn't break the game utterly like magic) these days, and has the merit (for the standards of WotC posters, mind - it's not that the attitude's especially awesome, just way better than average) of being willing and supporting of reflavoring anything that might be of use. And he's male.

But in the end, the reason he's still there's that he avoided places where he might get dragged in the worst of ad-hominem-ness.

And some serious laugh here.

[JonSetanta]

1200761187[/unixtime]]
And some serious laugh here.

It wasn't that funny at the time, struggling to get that point across...
But yes, now that you mention (and in retrospect) it is.

[Bigode]

To your defense, I'll add that I only really broke into laughter upon seeing the embedded post.

[JonSetanta]

Fuck, it wasn't just embedded... I never wrote that. It was Surgo's line. What's up with that?