Rogue--Starting at 1st

[User3]

(re)Starting a role-playing heavy D&D 3.5 campaign in about a month. I'm considering playing a 1st-level human rogue. I'd appreciate skill choices as well as feat choices.

Ability scores that I'm leaning toward are Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14.

Currently, I'm leaning toward the Combat Expertise and Improved Feint feats or the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats.

Suggestions?

[Murtak]

With an Int of 14 you can keep 11 skills maxed out. You will probably want Disable Device, Open Lock, Spot, Search, Listen, Hide, Move Silently and Use Magic Device anyways. That leaves you with 3 skills to choose from. If you plan to get into combat Tumble is probably a good idea. So we are down to two.

Personally I do not like the circus skills (Climb, Jump, Balance, Escape Artist, Swim) too much - they seem awfully underpowered and narrow in application compared to what we already have. The same goes for Disguise, Forgery and the likes. What still stands out are the social skills - Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and possibly Sense Motive. Of course, depending on your campaign, certain skills may be much more valuable than normal (Decipher Script and Gather Information for example). However, for your regular "save the world by slaying monsters with some side plots inserted" campaign I would go with Bluff and Diplomacy. That has the side benefit of not having to feel guilty about being more diplomatic than your character - something I often notice in talk-heavy games.

As for feats, that depends entirely on what you imagine your character to be. A sneaky thief will have a very different feat selection from a a stealthy barbarian hunter, who will again choose different feats than a swashbuckler will - and all of these may well be straight rogues.

Whatever image you have of your character though, you will want to wait until level 6 to take Expertise, as your AC gain is limited by your BAB.

[Josh_Kablack]

For skills, I largely agree with Murtak. Although I might consider buying 2 ranks in Swim (and buying 1 more rank every odd level). Disguise can also be pretty good, but you really need access to magic (disguise self) or items (hat of disguise) to make it work.

As a human starting at first level, your best feat options are either to take tougness twice for as many HP as the BBN, or to combine Skill Focus with one of the +2 to 2 skills feats to start out with +11 or better to a skill. Of course, both of those start looking like pretty silly choices if the character lives to level 5.

As to your choices, Combat Expertise does you no good by itself until you get at least a +1 BAB, but taking it at first lets you start out with Improved Feint, which can be quite decent for the right character. However, as you are a Str 10, Con 10, +0 BAB light armor character, I don't think that your character is the right character. Remember that feinting only works for melee attacks. If you want to be a melee guy, take Weapon Finesse and/or Dodge.

Now Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot synergize nicely with your 16 dex, and are going to be useful in just about any combat. Your main problem is making sure that the party composition will give you the oppurtunity to make ranged attacks regularily.

Furthermore, you should always tjeck with the DM to see which, if any PrCs are allowed in the game, and what you need to qualify for any of them which interest you (although this is unlikely to be a big deal, in your case as there are very few decent official WotC rogue-type PrCs)

[Murtak]

Regarding your ability scores:
You might want to shift some of that intelligence over to constitution. A fortitude save of +1 and an average of 18 HPs at level 5 is awfully fragile for the party trapfinder. (If you can, convince your DM to go with a higher point-buy number. Anything that helps the non-casters keep up is good in my book. Then, sink those points into constitution.)

If you want to get into melee you must invest into some HPs. With those HPs any single attack will drop you at first level. At level 3 or so you will be able to survive a glancing blow from a fighter type, but any solid hit will still knock you out cold and criticals will probably kill you outright. So if you want to go for close combat I suggest switching your Int and Con and asking your DM if you can select Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior) regardless of the Fortitude save prerequisite. Your other feat should be Weapon Finesse so you actually hit something - again, that is if the DM allows you to ignore the nonsensical +1 BAB-prerequisite. If your DM allows neither you could go with Toughness and Dodge, both of which unfortunately are pretty crappy feats.


Point-blank and Precise Shot is a rock solid choice, making you a decent archer right from the start. Other feat suggestions:
- Skill Focus (Use magic device): gives you decent chance to activate wands right away. You are probably better off with waiting until level 3 or 6 if you decide on this feat though.
- Two-Weapon Fighting: Extra attacks are good when you get static damage bonuses (sneak attack)
- Improved Initiative: Going first is a good thing, especially for rogues, as it allows you to start stabbing or shooting people while they are flatfooted.

[Oberoni]

Max out Sense Motive.

[Essence]

I largely agree with Murtak on skills, but I would choose either Listen or Spot -- getting both is overly redundant. Instead of the other perceptive skill, I'd take Sense Motive. It'll nail you another +2 Diplomacy and it's just insanely useful on it's own (IMX, of course).

As for feats, I'd go with one of these two sets:

Thrower (for chucking lots and lots of grenade-like Alchemist's pouches:
Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and then go into more campaign-specific stuff

Slayer (for assassinating people):
Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Improved Feint, Quick Draw, then go to more campaign-specific stuff

In neither case do you need HP. Rather, what you need is good tactics. Stay away from fighter-type opponents -- use a crossbow if you took the Slayer-type feats -- until you're fairly certain you can kill them with a well-placed round of Sneak Attacks.

[User3]

First, you must remember that there are only two things a rogue can do that other classes cannot do(or can't do as well):

1. Be the trap guy. Two of your maxed out skills will be Search and Disable Device.

2. Sneak attack damage.

Understanding this, you have to look at your stat array. You are putting lots of stats into Int and Cha. You might be in a RP heavy game, but these two 14s are better placed into Str and Con. Some people think that rogues should have massive piles of skills and do everything skillwise well, but thats stupid as most skills see very little screentime and are rarely important to a Rogue's core roles. Rogues get plenty of skill points to fill the roles of trapfinder and either scout, talky guy (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and maybe Intimidate) or esoteric skill guy (Decipher Script, Disguise, UMD, etc), or a useful combo of all those roles.

Social checks can be easily modified by large amounts by spells/items, feats, or circumstance bonuses from good RPing, so spending class features and stats to do them crazy-well is not necessary. Few DMs will let you do mind control with a large Diplomacy check.

Since sneak attacking at low levels will generally only be possible with flanking, you will be a melee-guy. Ranged attacks suffer from Attacks of Opportunity when you are threatened, so tossing daggers or acid is just dumb. Later in your carreer you will have access to a Ring of Blinking or some other "auto-sneak" effect, and then you can sit at range (outside of a enemy's threatened area) and toss a bunch of flasks or daggers with Rapid Shot.

Feinting in combat only helps your next attack do sneak damage, so I'd generally not recommend blowing feats to be good at it since you are limiting yourself to doing sneak damage to only one attack a round. More attacks means applying sneak attackdmanage more often, so you want to be able to full attack and/or get multiple attacks per round.

That being said, here is a Core-only work-upfor non-raced characters with skills maxed. Remember that humans get one extra skill maxed, and it will be marked as (skill name):

Talky guy:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Search, Disable Device, Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Listen, Spot, (Intimidate)
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative (acting first can be a huge advantage)

Scout
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Search, Disable Device, Sense Motive, Hide, Move Silently Disguise, Listen, Spot, (Gather Information)
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative (acting first can be a huge advantage) or being an elf for the +2s to three of these skills

Adventurer
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10.
Search, Disable Device, Sense Motive, Bluff, Hide, Use Magic Device, Gather Information, Spot, (Listen)
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative (acting first can be a huge advantage) or Expertise(to get into Improved Trip or Improved Disarm on 3rd level)

Personally, I'd go the Adventurer route.

[Murtak]

And yet more!

I sort of agree with K on most of his points. Especially concerning your charisma score - I don't know how I missed that earlier. About the only way your charisma score is going to be worth it is investing a couple of levels into a class with charisma-dependant class features, such as paladin or marshal. Otherwise just drpo it down to 10 and raise that constitution score.

I disagree about the value of strength. In the long term attacking will only be worthwhile to you if you can apply sneak attack - and in that case the extra couple of points of damage from having a 16 strength are hard to even notice. They will come in handy for those first couple of levels though.

And I seriously question the usefulness of Improved Disarm or Improved Trip.

[Alansmithee]

As for skill selections, I pretty much agree with everyone above. But I would personally stay away from two weapon fighting, as your to hit is gonna be low anyways. I would also seriously consider a 1 or 2 level dip in fighter to help round out your combat abilities. Also, i'd go high str and use a two hand weapon, but that's just me (going that route makes the spring attack chain more useful).

[User3]

Just to stress a few points:

A. Don't limit yourself to one attack a round. This means no two-handed fighting, Spring Attacks, or any of that noise. Sneak attack damage is applied with every attack, so the more attacks you can get, the more times you can do sneak damage.

B. Don't be afraid of your poor BAB and the -2s from Two-weapon fighting. Get a high Str (and +Str items) for the additional to-hit, and remember that the fighters are Power Attacking to match your overall damage, so in most cases you are hitting 0n the same numbers as the fighter, except that you are doing it with two or more full BAB attacks.

C. Don't be afraid of being tactical. Improved Disarm can negate a humanoid's fighting ability, and Improved Trip can not only keep a monster from full attacking next round, but it can give Attacks of Opportunity to every PC that threatens that dude. Some monsters makes PCs explode on a full attack (trolls), so investing in keeping that from not happening is very good.

[Alansmithee]

The reason I suggest to go with spring attack and two handed fighting is so that you aren't stuck in combat getting thrashed. Sure, two weapon fighting gets you more sneak attack in theory, but how often would you want to stand base-to-base for an extended period of time with anything that has any melee ability? Rogues generally lack the defense to be effective two weapon fighters, especially when often you won't be getting sneak attack, have lower BAB from being a 3/4 class, and won't get a full attack usually in round one anyways. Remember, to get a decent to-hit you either need finesse (which cuts strength and hence damage) or you must pump strength (which cuts out AC). And you won't have the armour to boost AC, nor usually the con of a dedicated melee combatant.

Another key consideration is that the spring attack train sets you up for elusive target, which will help mitigate some of the impact of power-attacking nastys.

If you insist on going two-weapon fighting, though, I recommend staggering strike from complete adventurer. Can't get it for awhile (+6 bab), but it causes enemies you sneak attack to make a fort save equal to damage dealt or next round they can only take either a standard or move action (so no taking a full attack).

[Josh_Kablack]

Sneak Attack is largely what makes two-weapon fighting a viable choice, so 2wf is a consideration for any rogue build. It's not mandatory or always even optimum, but it is always worth considering.

Both Improved Disarm and Improved Trip are awesome feats in the right build. But only in the right build. An Improved Trip character should have a 16 or higher Str and use a tripping weapon. An Improved Disarm character should have a decent attack bonus, and use a 2handed weapon which gives a bonus to disarm. Do not take either feat if you want to stick to your original stat allocation.

[Murtak]

If you are spring attacking you likely will not get to deal sneak attack damage anyways. In that case, why risk being in melee at all? Just use a bow or throw daggers.

[Username17]

Yeah,the things you need to think about as a Rogue are:

[*] You only do one thing that no other class can do: Traps. Traps is entirely Intelligence dependent. Search and Disable Device are both Int Skills, and that means that your highest stat should be Int for the same reason that a Cleric's highest stat should be Wisdom.

[*] Social Skills provide a larger bonus than Charisma does to social tests. In fact, adding one to your Int modifier and purchasing cross class ranks in Knowledge Nobility adds as much to your Diplomacy as adding two points to your Charisma, so even a Face character should seriously consider a Charisma of 8.

[*] Rogue combat damage is completely disproportional to weapons used or character strength. A die of sneak attack does about as much damage as the difference between a Strength of 10 and a strength of 18. So attacks are good, damage bonuses other than sneak attack are largely irrelevent.

[*] Weapon Finesse allows you to add Dex to attack with virtually the entire Rogue Weapon List. Combined with the point above, you should seriously consider Strength to be a Dump Stat. It literally doesn't do anything meaningful for you at all.

[*] Humans suck. Halflings are the master race. Especially Deep Halflings. Trading damage for to-hit is fantabulous when you've got sneak attack going to crazy town.

[*] Extra attacks come from: Multiweapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes, Fast Shot. They do not come two-handed weapons (other than reach weapons). Extra attacks mean extra sneak attacks. It's that simple.


As a Rogue, your stat array should be:

Int
Dex
Con
Wis
Str
Cha

-Username17

[User3]

You only do one thing that no other class can do: Traps. Traps is entirely Intelligence dependent. Search and Disable Device are both Int Skills, and that means that your highest stat should be Int for the same reason that a Cleric's highest stat should be Wisdom.

I don't agree. The DCs of traps are high enough that even a high Int Rogue is still going to take 20 to use Search and Disable Device. With the traps at CR 1 at DCs of 20-23, you are not going to be able to reliably find or Disable traps unless you take 20.

With an Int of 10 and max ranks, you can find and disable any trap in the game by 11th level (even the wickedly awesome Wail of the Banshee trap), so wasting stats just for traps seems more than a little pointless.

There is a small amount of lag a Int 10 Rogue below level 11 may find if he is trying to disable traps of a CR equal or greater than his own level (which would be party killers if they popped on the PCs, proving your DM hates you). A level appropriate Int boosting item and things like masterwork Thieves tools can easily make up for this handicap.

Rogue combat damage is completely disproportional to weapons used or character strength. A die of sneak attack does about as much damage as the difference between a Strength of 10 and a strength of 18. So attacks are good, damage bonuses other than sneak attack are largely irrelevent.

Weapon Finesse allows you to add Dex to attack with virtually the entire Rogue Weapon List. Combined with the point above, you should seriously consider Strength to be a Dump Stat. It literally doesn't do anything meaningful for you at all.

Humans suck. Halflings are the master race. Especially Deep Halflings. Trading damage for to-hit is fantabulous when you've got sneak attack going to crazy town.

While I'll admit that the halfling seem designed to be the rogue race with its Small character bonuses, +2 Dex, and bonuses to physical rogue skills, the whole "all Dex, no Str rogue" is a dedicated build of little power.

Yes, your sneak damage makes Str bonuses a little pointless, but let not forget that a human with a good Str is up two feats over the Dex halfling (one for human and one for not needing to take Weapon Finesse). That means that the halfling rogue is not getting into Two Weapon Fighting until at least 3rd level, and will be far behind on the ranged feats as well. A +1 to hit and AC and a +2 Dex is not going to mean much compared to being several levels behind the "extra attack" curve that the +2 feat, high Str human is getting.

This corrects itself at high levels as the halfling finally gets the required feats, but since that involves years of playtime where you are not being as good as you could be (and are adding less to the party than you could), and you are exchanging potential abilities like Elusive Target or Staggering Strike for small bonuses, I'd avoid it.

[Murtak]

You can get an extra feat as a halfling. Even if you don't, Weapon Finesse and a high Dex (or archery feats or quick draw + flasks) will in all likelihood let you do more damage than a middle of the line strength and dexterity and two-weapon fighting.

As for your trap DC argument - you can not take 20 on Disable Device checks, and arguably you can not take 20 on Search checks either.

[Username17]

You can take 20 on a search check, but you can't take 20 on a disable device check. What you can do is however, is to actually roll the die until you pass the DC, or fail by five or more. So what that means is that the Disable Device Skill is handled on a d16 rather than a d20 like most other things in the d20 system. And that means that getting +1 to your Disable Device check is a 6.25% shift in success rate, rather than a 5% shift like getting a bonus to save DCs or attack rolls.

So yeah, +1 Intelligence Modifier is the biggest damned thing that a Rogue can get. By a lot.

-Username17

[erik]

I've been trying to tweak a build for a deep halfling rogue (deep halflings are about all I play lately).

28 pt buy
10,16,14,14,14,8

Any opinions on saving a feat by skipping on twf and dipping a level of monk to flurry with nunchuks? You have to forgoe armor and slightly delay SA, which sucks... and your BAB is assuredly lower, but it does save the almighty feat. Letting a 2 rog/1 monk deep halfing have Imp Init, Weapon Finesse and Flurry by level 3. Extra base saves for survivabilty is a plus too.

I haven't yet decided whether ascetic rogue is worth the paper it is written on. I suppose that eventually it would be nice to deal full (small) monk damage while only having taken 1 level of monk... so long as I have an ally to cast greater magic fang or somesuch.

I've been playing living greyhawk mods all week prior and during gencon. Out of 6 mods, I've been the only stinkin small-sized character in any party, much less the only deep halfing. What is wrong with this world? With as much ass as I've been kicking, I'd think it would be more popular. My level 3 character dealt 40+ damage in one attack today, woot (critted-spirited charge)! By level seven I should be handing out around 100 average damage when I & my rhino charge against the BBEG.

[User3]

As for your trap DC argument - you can not take 20 on Disable Device checks, and arguably you can not take 20 on Search checks either.

Well, on the SRD section on "taking 20", it actually lists Search as an example of a skill that one takes 20 on.

I'd actually be quite surprised if you could find a rule that says that Disable Device is a skill that you can't "take 20" on. I can't find any such text.

However, Use Magical Device has a Special section after Try Again that states that you can't "take 10" on it. I see no such text for Disable Device, and it works like UMD in that there are negative conseuences for a bad roll.

Its funny that I never realized that you could "take 20" on UMD. It makes it a lot more useful.

You can get an extra feat as a halfling.

How?

What can they do that a human can't do to get an extra feat?

Out of 6 mods, I've been the only stinkin small-sized character in any party, much less the only deep halfing.

Halfings tend to make people feel like cheaters when they play them, and gnomes make them feel dirty. Deep halflings, the best combo of dwarf and halfling, make people feel both dirty and like a cheater (but more so).

[Username17]

I'd actually be quite surprised if you could find a rule that says that Disable Device is a skill that you can't "take 20" on. I can't find any such text.

It's the very definition of "taking 20":

When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no consequence for failure, you can take 20.

Since there is a consequence of failure, you can't take 20 on Disable Device or Use Magic Device. There doesn't need to be a rule anywhere that specifies UMD or Disable Device as skills that you can't take 20 on, because those skills from the very beginning don't match the rules that let you take 20 in the first place.

The simple fact that Disable Device says

If you fail...

means that you can't take 20 on it. End of discussion. It's not even important what the rest of that statement is, just the fact that it has an if/then statement about failure means that it doesn't meet the requirements for take 20.

How?

The Strongheart Halfling gets a bonus feat instead of the save bonus. Personally, I am coming up blank as to what feat you could get that would be better than a +1 unnamed bonus to all saves, but if you've got it figured then you can jolly well take the feat instead.

I haven't yet decided whether ascetic rogue is worth the paper it is written on.

Even if you have it in electronic copy, the answer is no. Even if used to its maximum effect (as a Rogue with a Monk's Belt and Improved Unarmed Strike), all it's going to do is allow you to inflict Epic Monk Damage with your fists. A 10th level Rogue who took Skill Mastery can actually take 10 on the check to activate the monk's belt, and then the feat would allow him to add his Rogue level to the result - which means that he would probably get the unarmed damage of a 20th level (or higher) Monk. But you know what? 2d8 unarmed damage at 10th level just isn't a big deal. You can get similar unarmed damage with a casting of Polymorph.

-Username17

[Murtak]

As for your trap DC argument - you can not take 20 on Disable Device checks, and arguably you can not take 20 on Search checks either.

Well, on the SRD section on "taking 20", it actually lists Search as an example of a skill that one takes 20 on.

The general rule for taking 20 is - as Frank already explained - that you can not take 20 if bad stuff happens if you fail. I even seem to remember some core book explicitely stating that taking 20 amounts to doing the task at hand 20 times, rolling every number on the d20 once.

So if you are searching for a trap that can be sprung by being careless while searching it you can not take 20 as there is a consequence for failure. Mind you, you could take 20 if all you cared about was finding the trap, not finding and not triggering it.

However, Use Magical Device has a Special section after Try Again that states that you can't "take 10" on it. I see no such text for Disable Device, and it works like UMD in that there are negative conseuences for a bad roll.

Which is why you can take 10 on Disable Device - it does not forbid you from doing though, and any time you are not hurried or threathened or the likes you can opt to take 10 on skill checks. You still can't take 20 on UMD though.

[User3]

The general rule for taking 20 is - as Frank already explained - that you can not take 20 if bad stuff happens if you fail. I even seem to remember some core book explicitely stating that taking 20 amounts to doing the task at hand 20 times, rolling every number on the d20 once.

By that interpretation, there isn't a single skill in the PHB that lets you take 20 since all of them have negative consequences if you fail and most don't allow rerolls.

Brilliant. We can stop talking now because either you or the rules are talking nonsense. Both possibilities are argument killers.

[dbb]

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure (for instance, a Disable Device check to disarm a trap) your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she couldcomplete the task (in this case, the character would most likely set off the trap).

I assume the point of saying "most likely" is to accomodate the situation where the Disable Device DC is so low that you can roll a 1 and still not fail.

However -- since using Disable Device to disarm traps is the example used in the book for a skill use you can't take 20 on -- I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that whatever is meant by "a skill that carries penalties for failure", disarming traps is intended to be such an animal.

Note that Disable Device is specifically referred to in the context of disarming traps, so there is no reason to think that you couldn't take 20 on a Disable Device check to jam a lock (if for some reason your negative modifiers were so high that you needed to do that).

--d.

[User3]

Hey, in the SRD it doesn't use that example. After looking in the PHB, I see that you are correct.

But since almost every skill in the game has negative consequences if you fail (even if its only not being able to retry), I'd like to extract myself from this argument before we get too theoretical about what people think the rules mean. Aside from Open Locks, Escape Artist, and Search, I can't find skills that don't have negative consequences to failing them. Failed checks either result in not being able to retry, destroying materials, worsening moods, missing an opportunity, or physical harm.

---------------
Back on track....

So, since you can't take 20 on Disable Device, that means that the DCs on Disable Device are too high to reliably nix traps even with a max Int. You are better off maxing Search and ditching Int, and just physically destroying any traps you run across with an adamantite polearm or adamantite ranged attacks. Search can be used with a "take 20", and only a fool would not "take 20" if they suspected traps.

You can find any trap in the game at 11th level with an Int of 10, and you can find any mechanical trap in the game at level 4. Magical traps can be found by anyone with Detect Magic at level 1.

[Username17]

K, stop being a dumbass. Yes, any skill that has a consequence for failure or which prohibits trying again can't be taken 20. That's the take 20 rule. That's always been the take 20 rule. It's just a time saver for times when you could literally just stand there and roll dice until you get a 20 and have it be theoretically impossible for anything bad to happen. It is not intended as a superpower to allow people to focus their chi to the point where they automatically win D&D.

That means no taking 20 on Appraise. No taking 20 on Climb if the distance is greater than 10 feet. No taking 20 on Craft checks. Etc. etc.

You can take 20 on climbs of less than 10 feet. Nothing actually happens if you fail that roll. You can arguably take 20 on Disguise checks, because there is no consequence of failure and you can try again. You can take 20 on Escape Artist checks. You can take 20 on Gather Information checks. You can take 20 on Handle Animal checks to teach tricks if you have enough time to waste on that shit. You can take 20 on a heal check to bandage a caltrop injury. You can take 20 on Jump checks for non-combat verticle leaps. You can take 20 on Listen checks. You can take 20 on Open Lock (which is probably why the DCs are so fvcking insanely high). You can take 20 on Search. You can take 20 days to take 20 on Spellcraft to decipher powerful scrolls. You can take 20 on spot checks. You can take 20 on Survival, those this is really time consuming. You can take 20 on use rope checks that aren't tying people up or throwing grappling hooks.

And of course, you can take 20 on special uses of skills that are outside their normal use and happen to fit the allowable retry and no failure consequence limits of taking 20. For example, if you need to make a DC 30 Tumble Check before you can take a prestige class, you could just keep jumping around until you make it unless something actually happens if you miss a roll.

But seriously, stop pretending that take 20 is something that it is not. It is not a way to succeed automatically, it is a way to skip unnecessary die rolling if your success is automatic.

-Username17