Polymorphing Madness At the End of the Universe!

[Lago_AM3P]

This is pretty straight-up nuts.

The FAQ allows you to change into templated and advanced forms of the creatures you choose. It says it in black and white.

Also, the FAQ explicitly supports Frank's reasoning of original targetting and irrelevant effects and all that.

However, polymorph any object has a HD limit of 15 and no longer creates 'forbidden' forms (which is not a big deal when you think about it). Also, no stacking multiple polymorphs for more abilities.

This changes things quite a bit, don't you think?

[Josh_Kablack]

1132281427[/unixtime]]This is pretty straight-up nuts.

The FAQ allows you to change into templated and advanced forms of the creatures you choose. It says it in black and white.

Sweet Zombie Buddha on a Pogo Stick.

Even more disturbingly, that FAQ has apparently traveled back in time from the future.

[Username17]

Well yes. Other than the time travel, Polymorph always worked like that. And while I don't understand how Andy's reasoning on the hit die cap works, it's something that he wrote up in Dragon Magazine a while back.

I've seen his reasoning. He completely buys my reasoning that the sentence on polymorph where it says:

The assumed form cannot have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject's HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

can't possibly apply because the examples clearly show that it doesn't. But he then goes on to say that all the parts of that sentence after the comma still apply. Which doesn't make any sense at all. Essentially he's saying that PAO contains the sentence fragment "to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level." :shrug:

Of course, it doesn't really matter. Just turn into a half-fiend half-dragon, pseudonatural, Firbolg and go kick peoples' collective asses. That's what Polymorph has said since the beginning of 3.5, except for the hit die limit part, it's about fvcking time that Andy finally admitted it.

-Username17

[Neeek]

1132295374[/unixtime]]
Of course, it doesn't really matter. Just turn into a half-fiend half-dragon, pseudonatural, Firbolg

Does half-fiend work? Don't you become an outsider? Or does half-dragon or pseudonatural trump it somehow?

[Fwib]

What about the problem of inheriting the no-templates clause from Alter Self?

I thought that FAQ didn't actuallly override rules.

[Jonathan_Drain]

What about the problem of inheriting the no-templates clause from Alter Self?

I thought that FAQ didn't actuallly override rules.

Indeed, any sensible DM would read Polymorph to inherit all limitations from Alter Self, since handing out a free template is at least a shade broken. That's how I read it, and it's how you read it. However, as our friend Frank has pointed out to me in the past, a literal, rules-lawyer interpretation of the Polymorph rule says that Alter Self doesn't inherit the no-templates clause. I blame this on 3.5 being rushed.

The FAQ has taken this literal interpretation and decided to go with it, rather than to contradict the rules as written. This, in my opinion, brings Polymorph from the realm of "a bit overpowered if you pick the right creatures" to "unequivocally and impossibly game breaking".

One wart is this: Unless they were using it as a disguise, why would anyone NOT take a template when polymorphing? Why play ettin, when you can polymorph into an ettin with any template you want - half-dragon ettin, lets say?

How about this: A 12th level druid can wild shape into any plant type creature. Since wild shape is based on polymorph and allows templates, he can become a wood element version (see Manual of the Planes) of any creature up to the 12 hit dice limit. This not only means free wood element template onto any animal, but lets him become a wood element version of himself, OR a wood element version of ANY creature - not just animals. What used to be an ability of limited use (turn into assassin vines/shambling mounds) now upgrades wild shape to "polymorph into anything at will and get a free wood element template".

Now the game breaker: Templates can stack. Purely using the core rules, my 8th level sorcerer or wizard can now assume the form of not just an troll, but a half-dragon, half-fiend, werewolf, vampire troll. Polymorph is no longer a matter of handing the player the Monster Manual, it's a mathematical rigmarole that takes as long as character generation. Bring in a few Dragon magazines and you're playing a half-dragon, half-fiend, half-earth-elemental, half-fire-elemental, half-water-elemental, half-air-elemental, umbral, shade, shadow, ghost troll - at NO EXTRA COST. Do you have Savage Species? Congratulations! Play a feral, gelatinous, insectile, three-headed, reptilian, tauric, umbral, yuan-ti, winged, half-dragon half-fiend troll!

The bonus question: When a druid gets elemental wild shape, does that let them assume the form of the creature called "elemental", or of any creature of the elemental type? If you assume the latter and allow Manual of the Planes in your games, you open up the ability for high level druids to be able to elemental wild shape into a fire marilith - and let's not forget this line:

In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.

Congratulations - every 16th level druid is now a fireproof marilith for 16 hours per day.

[erik]

I dunno if this is a new development or not, but apparently the human racial bonus feat may be gained (or lost) via Alter Self. Neat! Human may have just become my second favorite Alter Self (or Alters Elf, as my elven characters call it) form after Lizardfolk.

Losing the human's bonus skill points is just a retarded pain in the ass. I'm not certain whether you can gain them via Alter Selfing into a human. If so, that would possibly make human form my favorite form. Maxed-out skill on demand? Yes please! My bard is going to be in heaven now.

[RandomCasualty]

1132322116[/unixtime]]
Losing the human's bonus skill points is just a retarded pain in the ass. I'm not certain whether you can gain them via Alter Selfing into a human. If so, that would possibly make human form my favorite form. Maxed-out skill on demand? Yes please! My bard is going to be in heaven now.

Yeah. Skip really should just stop trying to explain and defend the polymorph mechanics. The more he opens his mouth and makes these rulings, the more crap he allows.

What he really should do is treat the spell like wish and let the DM determine what exactly you gain and don't gain from any particular form. Trying to clarify polymorph is a waste of everyone's time and a waste of FAQ space. The spell is broken as hell in print and any attempt at explaining it is a waste of everyone's time. It deserves to be put out to pasture with other dumb ass mechanics like demihuman level caps.

[User3]

You know what's most hilarious about this whole debacle?

Ever since Frank brought up elemental wildshaping at all several years ago, people have been screaming their lungs to bloody ribbons that even if the literal wording allowed it, the people who designed the game would never ever ever allow you to polymorph into templates!

And, well, look. Apparently the game designers did indeed want you to polymorph into template forms. Despite years of assertions to the contrary, we have a clear and unambiguous example of what they really wanted.

You people clearly have no idea of what the designers of this game want. You want to pretend so dearly that game balance is what they had in mind and then claim with your clairvoyant insight that they would never allow that, it's just... just... wrong! with ambiguous rules entries.FAQ entries like this expose that argument for what it really is.

From now on, if anyone ever pulls the 'designer intent' argument, you may kindly fuck yourself.

[RandomCasualty]

1132335968[/unixtime]]
You people clearly have no idea of what the designers of this game want.

Nah. It's just that the designers can be rather easily trapped by conflicting intent.

For instance, you ask them a question like "can I polymorph into a vampire?" and it seems pretty reasonable, so they'll answer that you can. If you were ask them if you could polymorph into a pseudonatural paragon, I'm certain they'd answer it the other way.

The problem comes when they try to put their intent into broad terms. They don't say "You can become a vampire with polymorph" they try to generalize it. And that's dangerous.

[User3]

Maybe when 3.782e comes out (I'm assuming Polymorph won't go away), they'll have made al tem platel CR adjustments into HD adjustments, and standardized HD and CR as well (And removed HD/BAB/etc type differences between most different "Types").

Probably too much to hope for.

[Username17]

1132313920[/unixtime]]What about the problem of inheriting the no-templates clause from Alter Self?

I thought that FAQ didn't actuallly override rules.

What inheritance? Alter self does not have a separate no-templates clause, it allows you to assume a form that falls within a size limit, a hit die limit, a no templates limit, and a same-type limit.

Now, Polymorph works just like that except that it allows you to transform into anything within a list of specific types inside a new hit die limit.

There's really no reason why any of the restrictions on what Alter Self can turn things into would carry over into Polymorph. Polymorph has a different definition of what it can turn things into, meaning that either it can't do anything (because Alter Self's restrictions apply), or only its own listed restrictions apply.

Since Polymorph says you can become a dragon, and it doesn't say that you can't become a templatted creature, you can become a half-dragon Ogre. End. That's not Andy talking crazy talk, that's not the FAQ overstepping its boundaries, that's the real text on the actual spell.

Which is fvcked beyond belief or understanding, but that's another discussion.

Congratulations - every 16th level druid is now a fireproof marilith for 16 hours per day.

Well, yeah. I've been saying that literally for years. Here's a post of mine from December of 2003:
http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewth ... [br]-Username17

[Fwib]

How should '...this spell functions like <spell X> except that...' work?

How should which parts of the text are inherited and which parts are not be decided?

[Username17]

How should '...this spell functions like <spell X> except that...' work?

They shouldn't. That's a retarded way to do things. If it really does work the same way as another spell, reprint the fvcking text. I'm not kidding, having people flip back and forth throughout the book to find information on a single spell that often takes less than a combat round to get off is bullshit.

Axes don't say "as longswords, but with a x3 critical multiplier", that would be stupid and confusing. There's no reason for spells to do that.

How should which parts of the text are inherited and which parts are not be decided?

Well, for those spells actually written that way, it's a mess. For spells that replace casting time, duration, or whatever with new values it is pretty easy to figure out. Of course, that's what gets us Shadow Alchemist's Fire, so even when it's explicable it's still shit.

For the polymorph chain, the thing that is being replaced is "what is a valid target" and "what it can turn things into". And that means that it replaces the whole thing. PAO says that it can turn any creature or object into another. That means just that. It can turn any creature or object into another creature. Or object. Those are the only restrictions on that sentence. The new form has to be a creature or object (actually, it also has some incredibly generous volume constraints).

-Username17

[Neeek]

While I agree that reprinting text is the way to go for this sort of thing, wouldn't it be easier to write what you can do with PAO then reference that for Polymorph and Alter Self, with the additional restictions added, rather than the current way? It seems to me one is inevitably ambiguous, and the other should be fairly clear. Of course, just not referencing at all would be better if they bother to re-write it, I guess, so it's a moot point anyway.

Though, I don't really have a problem for the referencing job they did for the Protection from X spells. Of course, they could have just made a spell called "Protection" that required a decision on what you are protected from and saved space.

[Username17]

1132351200[/unixtime]]
Though, I don't really have a problem for the referencing job they did for the Protection from X spells.

I do.

This spell functions like protection from evil, except that the deflection and resistance bonuses apply to attacks from chaotic creatures, and chaotic summoned creatures cannot touch the subject.

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural wepaon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creature to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect.

In this case, it's fairly obviously what they meant - just replace "evil" with "chaotic" all the way down and "Good" with "Lawful". But that is not what it says.

-Username17

[Fwib]

Frank: Agreed, flipping back and forth is annoying, and the spell rules are unclear (that there are still spells with text almost entirely inherited from 2e is baaaad)

Neeek: Yeah, the way they changed a bunch of reversible/alterable spells into separate spells in 3e I dislike [edit] and as Frank points out, this creates possibility for errors.

[Josh_Kablack]

1132351200[/unixtime]]Though, I don't really have a problem for the referencing job they did for the Protection from X spells.

So, you're cool with Protection from good including the clause "Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect." on the third effect then...?

While that's admitedly a bit nitpicky, it's a pretty clear example of how referencing other spells usually leads to ambiguity which would not be present if the whole text was reprinted.

[Username17]

Interesting note: the jackholes over at WotC CO board never figured out what this ruling said. People are throwing their hands up and screaming about how people are going to use it break Alter Self or some shit.

Sigh. People just don't read. That's the long and the short of it.

-Username17

[Crissa]

Referencing other things works in programming.

It doesn't work in the English language, however.

-Crissa

Hmm, do I want crisps or a snocone today?

[Josh_Kablack]

It can work in English, but doing it properly turns things into legalese.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1132350545[/unixtime]]
They shouldn't. That's a retarded way to do things. If it really does work the same way as another spell, reprint the fvcking text. I'm not kidding, having people flip back and forth throughout the book to find information on a single spell that often takes less than a combat round to get off is bullshit.

THANK YOU!

and not just the spells, everything. I hate having to flip back and forther between up to 5 or 6 different books to write an adventure, because the book I'm using doesn't tell me what the fvck shit does.

[PhoneLobster]

The other thing cross referencing does is lose things altogether.

The expanded psionics handbook gives a new use for grey ioun stones that makes you want to buy them (a lot). But there is no listed price (or any description).

So you refer to the DMG. Except in 3.5 they dropped the entry for grey ioun stone from the book since the 3.0 version (they clearly needed to free up that single line of text for other vital uses in messing over the rules).

So due to the dumb if its not rewritten its a rule rule you can still get a price for them and a description of how the behave, but only if you happen to have the 3.0 DMG which still has the entry.

Eventually it means for the price of one 1000gp 1 power point cognizance crystal you need to re charge with your own power points you can buy 40 self charged single use power points in the form of a cloud of grey ioun stones. And since cognizance crystal prices grow while gey ioun stone prices don't even the very next one up, the 4000gp 3 point recharging crystal costs as much as a whopping 160 grey ioun stones.

Maybe if they had put the text right there, almost next to the page with cognizance crystals they might have realised they had an issue.

But still thats only if you start juggling your .5 of an edition, rules legal but a bitch of a time cross referrencing wise.

[User3]

In 3.5e there are still grey ioun stones, and you can still buy them. Just grab a Pale Lavendar or Lavendar & Green (20 or 40k, respectively). Burn it out, and viola, Grey stone.

P.S.
Has anyone else noticed how much the L & G kicks the PG's ass? More than twice as many spell levels absorbed, and absorbs up to twice the spell level. All at only twice the cost.

[PhoneLobster]

In 3.5e there are still grey ioun stones

They say they are ioun stones that have forever turned into useless grey stones.

But they no longer have a description of grey ioun stones what they are or how they function (orbitting uselessly according to 3.0) or a price or anything. So you can't find, buy, use or craft them, they essentially don't exist.

The Pale Lavendar or Lavendar & Green entries regarding grey ioun stones are another pair of broken links to an entry that has been removed.