Hope for the Monk (for any of you who still play D&D & care.

[User3]

TWFing does stack with flurries.

Of course, why bother? You have to take 11 levels of straight monk to get two non-bad attacks. And no prestige class I know of directly advances a monk's flurry of blows--not even those wacky OA or Sword and Fist ones. Because the 3.5E designers in all their wisdom made flurry of blows a class ability (that the other PrCs retroactively do not have) rather than making it a part of the monk mechanics.

One level of monk, at the cost of a BAB, gives you the important part of a flurry of blows.

Of course, there's no reason to need to go monk or flurry of blows at all. Three section staves and the Unapproachable East feat Hammer Blow don't work anymore.

This doesn't stop you from making a kick-ass unarmed fighter, however. This only heavily encourages you to pick fighters with non-arm based natural weapons.

Here's what you do. Get a fighter with a two-handed weapon. Get IUS somehow. Pick up two-weapon fighting. Polymorph into something with non-arm natural weapons. Pick up the feat Item Familiar (important) and put it on a necklace of natural weapons.

Since the item familiar feat upgrades your weapon for free, you'll eventually end up with a decent unarmed attack relative to the amount of your natural attacks. It ends up costing you only a little bit price-saving hootenany compared to the real thing (the biggest drawback of TWFing) and you still get to save your biggest attacks for your two-handed weapon.

Of course, monk levels have almost no place in this character progression. But it's possible to build a viable unarmed fighter in the process.

[Murtak]

I for one would love to see a monk beat some other class with a similar amount of min-maxing being done on both sides. At anything really, except such useless stuff as "I can run faster than anybody else". So please post your monk damage dealer mean_liar.

[mean_liar]

Pretty basic stuff.

Human Monk 6/Shintao Monk 6/Singh Rager 1/Bear Warrior 1/Shapeshifter 1/Master of Many Forms 2/Warshaper 3

1 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, Power Attack, Kiai Shout
2 Monk Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk Improved Sunder
6 Monk Fists of Iron*, Improved Natural Attack
7 Shintao Monk Pain Touch*
9 Shintao Monk Eagle Claw Attack*, Iron Will, [Empty Hand Mastery]
11 Shintao Monk Unbalancing Strike*
12 Singh Rager Alertness, Greater Kiai Shout*
13 Bear Warrior
14 Shapeshifter
15 Warshaper Endurance
16 Master of Many Forms
17 Master of Many Forms [Firbolg Shape]
18 Warshaper ?
19 Warshaper
20 Shintao Monk

Note that this class requires 4 Ranks in Bluff (a cross-class skill) to get Empty Hand Mastery, and 10 ranks in Concentration to qualify for Shapeshifter. In the end, you're executing your unarmed attacks as a (large) Firbolg with +4 size to your attacks thanks to Empty Hand Mastery, a Fanged Ring, Improved Natural Attack and Morphic Weapons, Reach of 15', and a 40 STR and 27 CON.

The only real item this build needs is the Fanged Ring. With UMD and UPD you can bind in an Ectoplasmic Fist and Battlefist (Eberron) for 24d6 per strike. So, you can add in whatever other items you'd like to see.

...

This build uses the fact that Gauntlets as weapons have the property that other than causing lethal damage, "a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack". So a gauntlet should cause equivalent damage to an unarmed attack, which increases with Monk level. However, a Monk cannot flurry with a gauntlet, since its not a monk weapon - but a Shou Disciple can.

Human (patron of Ilmatar) Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Divine Champion 4/Occult Slayer 4

1 Monk Improved Unarmed*, Stunning Fist*, TWF, Dodge
2 Monk Combat Reflexes*
3 Monk Weapon Focus (unarmed)
6 Monk Improved Trip*, Improved Natural Attack
7 ShouDisciple
8 ShouDisciple Combat Expertise*
9 ShouDisciple Karmic Strike
10 ShouDisciple Power Attack*
11 ShouDisciple
12 DivineChampion Improved TWF
13 DivineChampion Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Heavy weapon)*
15 Divine Champion Double Hit, Improved Initiative*
16 Occult Slayer
18 Occult Slayer Defensive Throw
19 Occult Slayer

As you may notice from level 13, this build uses a pair of oversized Gauntlets once hitting level 11, and Huge Golden Gauntlets with a Fanged Ring at 13, doing 6d6 base damage per hit, with Improved Natural Attack making it 8d6 per strike. Metamorphic Skin into a Firbolg for the typical size increase + stat block + nat armor.

Again, non-typical acquisition of the Ectoplasmic Fist and Battlefist through UPD and UMD takes damage to 16d6 per strike.

The Golden Gauntlet is the main weapon and a Necklace of Natural Weapons for the 'off-hand' allows use of GreaterWounding on both weapons for typical TWF/DoubleStrike/KarmicStrike CON-threatening retorts, or Metalline AoO sundering of weapons that hit. Defensive Throw is a bit of an afterthought and allows missed attacks to generate AoOs as well.

...

I feel these are pretty good noncaster minmax attempts, and they're certainly playable creations.

[User3]

In your first build, why exactly are the monk levels so important to your concept?

You could treat yourself to a nerfing and put all of those levels you put into Shintao Monk and Monk and take levels in Shaman as an Illuminan--and you'd come out way ahead in attack abilities.

Also note that Shintao Monk levels do not advance flurry of blows anymore and comes with an extremely dumb (and potentially unworkable) class disadvantange. See above note. Sorry.

This build uses the fact that Gauntlets as weapons have the property that other than causing lethal damage, "a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack". So a gauntlet should cause equivalent damage to an unarmed attack, which increases with Monk level. However, a Monk cannot flurry with a gauntlet, since its not a monk weapon - but a Shou Disciple can.

The FAQ specifically goes out of the way to tell you that this is untrue--you don't even get the phat damage.

However, you can still use a necklace of natural weapons upgraded for free with item familiar, so it's not like it's a big deal.

Also, a Shou Disciple's 'flurry' is mega-different from that of monks. Especially in this edition, where flurry is a continuing class ability rather than something split into two parts.

[mean_liar]

Thanking for taking the time to contribute nothing. The v3.5 OA update is clear that Shintao, Henshin Mystic, and Tattooed Monk levels (from OA) stack with Monk levels to determine flurry; ditto with the Shou Disciple. That is why the Monk levels are important -- in order to acquire Greater Flurry.

And if you dispute the Gauntlet ruling (which the FAQ actually doesn't cover, AFAIK), you can always use Blade Boots from the FRCS, which explicitly do unarmed damage.

Whoop-di-do.

[mean_liar]

...I also forgot that the Monk levels give free feats, Evasion, and good saves in addition to the Flurry capabilities. But that should be obvious, since without those bonus feats a lot of the later-level tricks are feat-combo-dependent.

So I'll assume you didn't actually look at the builds.

...

Look, these aren't earth-shattering builds. They're useful and decent and not stupid enough to have your DM nerf you somehow. I had no idea that making a useful monk was such a terribly earth-shattering thing that no one believed it could be done.

[Oberoni]

Not too shabby. For those of us who aren't Oriental Adventures savvy (for example, yours truly), could you drop a few more numbers so I have a better idea of what sort of mayhem these guys can unleash (as well as some of their other, non-mayhem related attributes)?

[Murtak]

Look, these aren't earth-shattering builds. They're useful and decent and not stupid enough to have your DM nerf you somehow. I had no idea that making a useful monk was such a terribly earth-shattering thing that no one believed it could be done.

I still believe any monk build can be beaten at what it is supposed to do best by using other classes instead. Just looking at how many hoops you have to jump through ... sheesh (7 classes, dragon material, and UMD for specific items ... where are you getting UMD from anyways?).

Anyways, noone is somehow upset about you posting "a seful and decent monk build". But I don't get how you can think how either are monk builds (the second one is not even an unarmed fighter build) or how it is in any way acceptable for monks to have to string together specific prestige classes, items, feats and powers and still fall short of less complicated non-monk builds.

It is not that I mindseeing powerful monk builds. I want monks to be powerful. But they simply are not good at anything except generally being sort of hard to kill. And that just does not cut it.


Let me give you an example of a basic damage dealer (note: this is certainly not min-maxed to it's peak potential, not even close):

Orc Barbarian 2, Fighter 4, Psychic Warrior 4, Frenzied Berserker 10
Power Attack, Cleave, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Extra Rage, Leap Attack, 4 feats left over

18 starting strength, +10 frenzy, +4 rage, Str, +6 enhancement, +5 levels, +1 tome= 48 Str
Leap Attack + Supreme Power Attack work out to 12 dmg per -1 on power attack
Weapon will be a +5 Valorous Berserker Greatsword

Using just Psionic Lion's Charge, this character charges with an attack bonus of +19 (BAB) +1 (Weapon Focus) +7(enhancement) +19(Str) +2(charge) = +48/+43/+38/+33, dealing 2d6 +7(enhancement) +28(Str) +2(specialisation) *2 (valorous) = 2d6 + 72 (average 79) damage per hit. By putting 8 points into power attack we arrive at an attack line of +40/+35/+30/+25 and an average damage of 175 per hit.

That is without polymorphing, without Dragon content, using just 4 books (CW, one feat from CAd, two weapon enhancements from UE, base class and one power from ExPsi) and I without actually looking for more fun stuff to add damage (now that I think about it, at the very least enlarge person should be added) and with just a +7 weapon and the bare minimum in strength gear. Oh, and using core classes and one prestige class. And of course you can actually dish out the damage starting at level 1.

[mean_liar]

The 1st build is really just an exercise. I know its silly, its really an excuse to be able to turn into a Firbolg on its own. The 2nd is more to what has to be done with a monk to make it oomph. And I wouldn't say its jumping through hoops, not any more than most other minmax builds.

The monk, as-presented, isn't anything. Its a collection of hodge-podge abilities that don't make any sense. So, to me, the real idea of a 'monk' is good speed, flurry, evasion, good saves, and something approximating chop-socky action; similarly, a 'barbarian' is rage, a 'rogue' is skills, and a 'fighter' is a lot of feats, and that really doesn't have a lot to do with what classes are required to pull it off.

If the impression I gave was that there was some way to make an ultimo-monk with some as-yet-unseen minmax magic for Toungue of Sun and Moon, thats not going to happen. But the real problem with making a 'monk' the way you seem to have it envisioned isn't anything inherent in the system of d20 itself, its merely a lack of usable minmax material.

I mean, your example is mostly based on Lion's Charge and Valorous, both of which can be placed into items that any character could use. You could have a Psion pulling that off with the right gear... but thats going someplace else anyway.

...

The UMD/UPD is an afterthought, and I would have to do some thinking as to how you'd actually get/use them.

[RandomCasualty]

Eh, I dont' think either build is all that remarkable.

The monk builds are just polymorph mechanic abusers and the warrior is a charge whore. I can't see many games allowing either of those. I certainly know no DM (including myself) who would allow either of those characters.

[Lago_AM3P]

Mean Liar, no offense or anything, but I think builds like yours highlights the massive inferiority of the monk concept.

You had to dig around in several books and string together 5 prestige classes and slog through 10 or more levels before you received a decent character.

This ignores the fact that in most cases, the game ENDS before you get to level 15. Furthermore from personal experience I know very few DMs that allow you to snatch up more than one or two prestige classes.

That's the real reason the cleric and druid and wizard get away with being powerful for so long. They are powerful as-is and don't need a bunch of tomfoolery to make their character work. I can see in your case that you strayed heavily from the basic monk mechanics, especially in the polymorphing build. You wasted a ton of levels just to get an effect which is decidely inferior to Polymorph Any Object, which is permanent.

The Item Familiar/Necklace of Natural Armor character, by contrast, doesn't require nearly as much playing with the levels nor does it require as many books (it's an overpowered feat and a minor magical item). It's fully stackable with the monk, of course, but the basic thing to take away from it is that the unarmed fighter routine works BETTER with real fighting classes than with monks.

You try to pull that off with a frenzied berserker or an Iajutsu master who had pounce and he would eat your face off!

I personally don't think you should have to shell out an extra hundred bucks, violate the spirit of a lot of games, waste a ton of levels just to be able to ignore the benefit of other party members, and ignore the concept of your class just to have your character work. If you do then your class is inferior.

[mean_liar]

I don't think I was arguing that the monk, by itself, was a superior or even on par to the fighting noncaster classes, but rather that its possible to build a minmaxed 'monk' that punches and kicks effectively and contributes to the party.

I don't know if I mentioned this in this thread, but when I play a monk in a DnD game I purposefully talk with the DM beforehand and work out a custom PrC that I can use that will ensure that I'm effective without forcing me to cobble together some sort of minmax monstrosity. I really don't have to do that with any other class or concept.

So I accept that the monk class is weak sauce - I just don't think that they're necessarily laughable.

[Murtak]

I don't think I was arguing that the monk, by itself, was a superior or even on par to the fighting noncaster classes, but rather that its possible to build a minmaxed 'monk' that punches and kicks effectively and contributes to the party.

That sounds quite a bite different from your original arguments, namely:

at the higher end of minmax I think its as effective as any non-casting fighting build.

I'd actually say that a minmaxed monk can easily compete with any noncaster for damage, minmaxed or not.

[Username17]

I don't know if I mentioned this in this thread, but when I play a monk in a DnD game I purposefully talk with the DM beforehand and work out a custom PrC that I can use that will ensure that I'm effective without forcing me to cobble together some sort of minmax monstrosity. I really don't have to do that with any other class or concept.

That's not entirely true. If someone wants to play "a knight" they are going to need a kickass knightly PrC made for them unless they intend to run around lancing things. If someone wants to play "a bard" they are going to need some sort of kickass singer PrC if they want to keep up at high levels.

Admittedly, Monks usually need some kind of kickass houserule addenda to their characters by the time they get to level 3, which other classes (even Bards and Fighters) do not need. The fact is that having "proficiency witht he longsword" is actually enough to make you a minimal contributor to combat for the first 3 levels, and Monks don't even have that.

In general, however, most player characters should be getting custom PrCs that fit the power level and character flavor that people are looking for in their game. Monks are distinguished mostly from the fact that there is no sample Monk line of bonuses that make them decent. The Barbarian has its Frenzied Berserker, the Bard has it's Sublime Chord, and you can pattern something playable off of those. The Monk has never gotten anything good, so bringing a Monk up to par is something you do from scratch or not at all.

-Username17

[mean_liar]

Murtak --

Sorry, wasn't being clear. Monks require more minmax than other noncaster fighters - however, at the higher-end of minmax, 'monks' are as effective as other noncaster fighters.

Said differently, w/o minmax, monks are weak. With minmax, they're as playable as any other noncaster fighter.

[mean_liar]

most player characters should be getting custom PrCs that fit the power level and character flavor that people are looking for in their game

Thats a hallmark of most of the games I play in, and I find it makes everyone breath a lot easier. It can be hard to know where to draw the line, minmax-wise, in some games - making an explicit agreement with the DM about a PrC easily defines what is expected from the PCs while satisfying the player's sense of vision for their characters.

[RandomCasualty]

1133723766[/unixtime]]

most player characters should be getting custom PrCs that fit the power level and character flavor that people are looking for in their game

Thats a hallmark of most of the games I play in, and I find it makes everyone breath a lot easier. It can be hard to know where to draw the line, minmax-wise, in some games - making an explicit agreement with the DM about a PrC easily defines what is expected from the PCs while satisfying the player's sense of vision for their characters.

I find it amusing that the min/max savvy end up turning to straight up total custom PrCs for all their games.

[Essence]

At some point, you just decide with your DM that it's faster, easier, and better for the game to make up your own class than it is to dumpster-dive through dozens of books to find your next incarnation of Real Ultimate Power.

I'm to the point now where I tell my PCs to develop a character concept and we'll just make a base class around it. Why even bother with the initial "But you have to be a Rogue first"? Just go for your vision right off of the bat.

[RandomCasualty]

1133734869[/unixtime]]At some point, you just decide with your DM that it's faster, easier, and better for the game to make up your own class than it is to dumpster-dive through dozens of books to find your next incarnation of Real Ultimate Power.

I'm to the point now where I tell my PCs to develop a character concept and we'll just make a base class around it. Why even bother with the initial "But you have to be a Rogue first"? Just go for your vision right off of the bat.

Yeah, I perfectly understand the thought process, I just think it's amusing to spend all this time discussing rules and everything only to ultimately just toss them out.

[PhoneLobster]

It isn't tossing out the rules, its changing them. Its a tiny bit different.

Now if someone were to publish a rules book of "Well balanced and thought out class abilities you can give out willy nilly to substitute for those terrible prestige classes and other poor class/race customization" then I'd buy that book and use those rules.

[Murtak]

Yeah, I perfectly understand the thought process, I just think it's amusing to spend all this time discussing rules and everything only to ultimately just toss them out.

How would you know how to design better rules without first discussing and analyzing what rules exist? Or, in the current debate, how would you actually know monks sucked and how would you know how to design a better monk class or even just a workable monk build without first understanding the current monk?

I would actually say thorough discussion and/or analysation of current material is one of the key factors in designing new material that actually improves the game.

[RandomCasualty]

1133835014[/unixtime]]
How would you know how to design better rules without first discussing and analyzing what rules exist? Or, in the current debate, how would you actually know monks sucked and how would you know how to design a better monk class or even just a workable monk build without first understanding the current monk?

I would actually say thorough discussion and/or analysation of current material is one of the key factors in designing new material that actually improves the game.

Oh, I don't disagree with it, I just find it pretty ironic to create all these crazy character builds that nobody actually uses.

Just curious but what do people do as far as casters are concerned? Is much of the broken spells just cut out or what?

[MrWaeseL]

I have three primary casters at the moment.

One, a sorcerer, uses nothing but area effect status spells (i.e. grease, web, slow, etc.) He's the best of the party, but not broken.
I also have a druid in an arena game who loads up on briar webs and spikes and dishes out pain, and he's pretty powerful, even though he doesn't have WS yet.
And finally I have a druid who uses seldom-seen spells like flaming sphere and cure spells because the game is pretty laidback and I don't want to overshadow everyone else.

So, in short, I'd say it depends on the kind of game you play.

[Essence]

I bumped Anticipate Teleport down to 3rd level and Greater Anticipate Teleport down to 6th level, and made items of the former commonly available.

I removed the creature-summoning portion of Gate straight up. The monster-summoning portion I made into a spell I like to call Summon Monster IX.

Shapechange I fix by changing creatures. Jovocs are immune to their Aura of Retribution no matter what their type is; Phoenix detonations occur when their soul leaves their body for any reason; Hagunumnon simply don't exist, etc.

Polymorph doesn't replace your stats; it replaces your racial stat mods. And it doesn't give you type, (Sp), (Su), or (Ex) abilities. (But then, I've made tags for (Na)tural abilities, which are form-dependent, and (Fa)ntastic abilities, which are form-dependent and magic-dependant -- and Polymorph does give you those.)

[Crissa]

I still don't see why handwraps of flaming wrath can't be just as common in a campaign as flaming flamberges are.

But of course, the monk is in the default setting, and the default books have none of that...

-Crissa