Earth Glide and Tremorsense

[PhoneLobster]

the earth elemental's Earth Glide ability doesn't say that they can grab stuff

It doesn't say they can't either. Since there is plenty of precedent in fantasy for summoning earth elementals when one wants some metal or gemstones It would seem to be dumb if there was some implied rule "earth elementals can't ever carry stuff..." because thats what your implying.

I mean when they're at home in the elemental plane of earth how do they carry their shopping back from the super market?

And If you can't make a planar ally earth elemental with the kind of carrying capacity, overall duration and tireless nature they have pay for itself by the end of the first day you probably are doing something wrong.

The minimum planar ally is at 7th level, lasts 7 days and happens to cost 7000 gp. This medium earth elemental has a modest a carrying capacity of anywhere up to 460lbs for a heavy load. Even if you mostly want him to bring you iron ore or coal he (or another elemental offsetting his cost) can bring you DIAMONDS. Think about how "expensive" that spell is.

And if the diety you worship isn't sending you earth elementals when you ask for earth elementals you are worshipping the wrong idiot. Its not like there isn't plenty of competition in the diety market.

[User3]

It doesn't say they can't either. Since there is plenty of precedent in fantasy for summoning earth elementals when one wants some metal or gemstones It would seem to be dumb if there was some implied rule "earth elementals can't ever carry stuff..." because thats what your implying.

Fantasy literature also supports heroes shooting out the sun with an arrow and giant snakes swallowing the earth. DnD doesn't support that crap, and it doesn't support Earth elementals being able to grant the Earth Glide ability to people or even objects.

Have you noticed that the Earth Elemental has a Treasure listing of "None" and he's not carrying any objects? They also lack any kind of "Earth Drowning" ability or whatever you would call dragging guys underground, which would be a big deal and you'd want to note it in their description if they could use Earth Glide to do it. Thats all support for an interpretation of "no carrying crap while Earth Gliding."

I mean when they're at home in the elemental plane of earth how do they carry their shopping back from the super market?

Since they have no need to eat or sleep, I don't think they go to the supermarket. They have no need for any material objects or tools, so why would they need the abilty to carry them?

Look at their skills. I don't think they even have any hobbies.

And If you can't make a planar ally earth elemental with the kind of carrying capacity, overall duration and tireless nature they have pay for itself by the end of the first day you probably are doing something wrong.

The might not even be able to find anything. They aren't knowledgable about ores, mining, or the earth, as they lack the relavent skills. They only have Listen and Spot as skills, and pretty poor mental stats. Considering that they move around blindly while under the earth, its a real stretch to imagine that they can find anything underground.

Additionally, they might not sleep, but they do get fatigued and exhausted, so they aren't actually tireless.

The minimum planar ally is at 7th level, lasts 7 days and happens to cost 7000 gp. This medium earth elemental has a modest a carrying capacity of anywhere up to 460lbs for a heavy load. Even if you mostly want him to bring you iron ore or coal he (or another elemental offsetting his cost) can bring you DIAMONDS. Think about how "expensive" that spell is.

Even assuming I believe your interpretation that Earth Elementals can carry objects, guess what? Earth Elementals can't touch DIAMONDS while using the Earth Glide ability. They pass right through them like they were water, leaving no signs of their presence, or wake, per the description of the ability. Since they are blind while in the ground, they won't even notice diamonds or any other gemstone.

And if the diety you worship isn't sending you earth elementals when you ask for earth elementals you are worshipping the wrong idiot. Its not like there isn't plenty of competition in the diety market.

OK, now you are just being silly. The spell says you have no control over what you get. Imagining that you can somehow blackmail a god into doing what you want by threatening to not worship him is pretty dumb.

Even the God of Earth Elementals is just as likely to give you Earth Pixies as he is to give you Earth Elementals.

Thats the rules. I didn't make 'em, I just play 'em.

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There are good examples of your point. This was not one of them.

[Username17]

Since they are blind while in the ground, they won't even notice diamonds or any other gemstone.

Um... I'm calling bullshit on that one. Earth creatures have tremorsense that allows them to know the "location" of anything within 60 feet of themselves that is in contact with ground. So they not only are able to notice the diamonds, they automatically know where they all are.

And yes, they did leave that off of the Earth Elemental in the Monster Manual, but it's explained in the expanded Planar bullshit in Manuelle's Planes.

Claiming that Earth Elementals can't be used to grab diamonds because of a typographical error that has been admitted as such publically is weak sauce.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

Well, the DMG actually says the creature has to be moving for tremorsense to detect it. I would assume that tremorsense couldn't detect stationary diamonds. So the EE would actually be a poor searcher.

[PhoneLobster]

So lets get this straight. In order to support your claim that they can't go in the ground and bring you pretty baubles...

When at home in the plane of earth, you know for countless centuries or whatever, earth elementals are blind and never interact with objects.

You've already established that ore is stone in your always convenient opinion so they can't even touch that, even if there is a specific metal exception in the earth glide ability. (so they can't conveniently substitute admantium for diamonds for a cash crop).

By that reasoning earth elementals, also pass through earth elementals...

Every other precedent in the system about items being dropped in and out of effects like invisibility, fly, levitate etc... doesn't apply to the earth glide effect, 'cause you don't wanna'.

Anything without skill points not only has no hobbies but also lacks the motivation to interact with objects for centuries on end.

Low intellect low level Earth elementals need to be performing the decision making role of the geological survey wizard because their union won't allow them to mine humanoid identified deposits.

Dieties don't supply their earthly agents with the best outsiders for the job when they ask for one to do some mining for the greater glory of the dieties earthly mission.

Clerics would be dumb to stop worshipping gods who can't manage to deliver minor earth elementals on request after a significant monetary fee.

Similarly diety that sends you a fire elemental when you ask for an outsider to put out a burning orphanarium is also not to be left whilly nilly by these blackmailing greedy fickle clerics.

There aren't several potential earth based outsiders (possibly including some form of "earth pixie" like you mentioned) that wouldn't be even better miners, or capable of pretty much producing diamonds from thin air. Not in all those exceedingly sensible and non crazy additional monstrous manuals and the like. No sir, not at all.

And lets not talk about named outsiders or other spells. And not because, you know without claiming that gods like to send plumbers to do a stone masons job you might have difficulty claiming that you just can't get any good help these days...

[User3]

So lets get this straight. In order to support your claim that they can't go in the ground and bring you pretty baubles...

Sure, why not.....

When at home in the plane of earth, you know for countless centuries or whatever, earth elementals are blind and never interact with objects.

The elemental plane is full of all kinds of crap like pockets, caves, and crazy BS like monster lairs and cities.

But Earth Elementals are blind while Earth Gliding. Thats the rules. Even if we gave them Tremor Sense and ignored the DMG, then that means they'd know the location of crap, but not know what it was. Even if we gave them the ability to pull things out with Earth Glide, they'd get quartz more often than diamonds and pyrite more often than adamantite.

You've already established that ore is stone in your always convenient opinion so they can't even touch that, even if there is a specific metal exception in the earth glide ability. (so they can't conveniently substitute admantium for diamonds for a cash crop).

If ore is not stone, then Earth Glide doesn't work at all. Metals are in all earth and stone, and the concentration differs. Even vaguely pure metal is extremely rare.

By that reasoning earth elementals, also pass through earth elementals...

Errr....no. The Earth Glide Ability clearly says it works on earth and stone. Earth elementals, despite any trickery you might want to play with keyword matching or flavor text, are creatures.

Are you just trying to create a confusing counter to make people think you've got a valid point?

Every other precedent in the system about items being dropped in and out of effects like invisibility, fly, levitate etc... doesn't apply to the earth glide effect, 'cause you don't wanna'.

Wrong precedents. Earth Glide works more like spells that make you incorporeal than Invisibility or Levitate.

We'd never assume that an incorporeal creature would be able to turn objects incorporeal unless the effect specifically do so, so why should Earth Glide make objects do that? Invisibility has a specific clause to allow objects to leave or enter its effect; if Earth Glide could do the same, it'd also have a clause stating it.

Low intellect low level Earth elementals need to be performing the decision making role of the geological survey wizard because their union won't allow them to mine humanoid identified deposits.

Ummm, did you even read my reply on how DnD divination sucks for finding random crap?

Sure, you can propose a "Find Swag" spell that lets you find piles of swag from a great distance, but thats not in the DnD canon, so its like proposing an "I Win All the Time Fvckers" spell......completely dumb.

Dieties don't supply their earthly agents with the best outsiders for the job when they ask for one to do some mining for the greater glory of the dieties earthly mission.

Clerics would be dumb to stop worshipping gods who can't manage to deliver minor earth elementals on request after a significant monetary fee.

Similarly diety that sends you a fire elemental when you ask for an outsider to put out a burning orphanarium is also not to be left whilly nilly by these blackmailing greedy fickle clerics.

The game says no. The DM picks the monster you get, which means you can be the High Priest of Earth Elementals and never get a single elemental. Or you might get one every time. Or no one in your whole continent might ever get one. Or you might get one for every situation.

Thats the game, man. You might be happier playing some other fantasy game if you don't like this ruleset.

There aren't several potential earth based outsiders (possibly including some form of "earth pixie" like you mentioned) that wouldn't be even better miners, or capable of pretty much producing diamonds from thin air. Not in all those exceedingly sensible and non crazy additional monstrous manuals and the like. No sir, not at all.

Oh, there are, but we weren't talking about them, were we?

We don't even have to have a conversation about
Efreet, a monster that doesn't even need to be Earth-based to be a King of Metals. Those fvckers can produce piles of diamonds like it was feces.

But thats a different monster, right? We were talking about Earth Elementals.

And lets not talk about named outsiders or other spells. And not because, you know without claiming that gods like to send plumbers to do a stone masons job you might have difficulty claiming that you just can't get any good help these days...

Yes, lets not talk about them. I'd hate to think that we'd become crazy people who talked about one thing with one set of facts and had actually been secretly talking about another thing with another set of facts.

I thought we were talking about Earth Elementals and Planar Ally. If we were having a secret conversation about other spells and monsters, then I missed it.

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[Username17]

1141968194[/unixtime]]Well, the DMG actually says the creature has to be moving for tremorsense to detect it. I would assume that tremorsense couldn't detect stationary diamonds. So the EE would actually be a poor searcher.

But the specific overrides the general. The Earth Elemental version says:

Tremorsense (Ex): The earth element creature can automatically sense the location of anything within 60 feet that is in contact with the ground.

And are we really surprised? I mean, once in a gajillion years the D&D rules actually are written in a way that makes some sense. It lives in a sea of earth that extends to infinity in all directions, it had better have some sort of ability to detect things in that medium.

But Earth Elementals are blind while Earth Gliding.

No they aren't, earth elementals can see rubies and eat them or collect them or do anything else they want to do with them. Duh! Holy crap, I can't believe this argument is still going on. What kind of dumbass do you have to be to seriously argue that earth elementals can't locate and harvest gemstones? That's their fvcking job.

-Username17

[PhoneLobster]

Errr....no. The Earth Glide Ability clearly says it works on earth and stone. Earth elementals, despite any trickery you might want to play with keyword matching or flavor text, are creatures.

Err... double no. It says earth and stone it says diddly about creatures.

The earth elemental IS earth and stone, it says so.

So if you care to say "as far as earth glide is concerned there is no such thing as an object/item only earth/stone and non earth/stone" then the same easily goes for creatures.

As with most of your claimed rebuffs you are totally making shit up here.

There is nothing anywhere supporting a claim that an earth elemental can't pass through an earth elemental. And the direction you were going with your other made up junk was heading there.

You just draw the line where you like and then just claim you play by the book.

And then you take my pointing out that this is the tip of the iceberg of critters and that the specific spell of several mentioned that you personally picked out so you can claim that god/the DM is a dick and won't give you useful stuff is just one of them. And from that you claim I'm changing the subject.

I'm sorry YOU chose to target planar ally with the claim of divine incompetance in delegation. I was talking about planar binding, druid wild shape and everything under the sun with burrowing abilities like nine million posts ago. Get your ass in gear and realise that I'm not changing the subject, YOU are.

[User3]

But the specific overrides the general. The Earth Elemental version says:

Thats true, the specific does override the general.

If the description of Tremorsense for the Earth Elemental contradicted the DMD description in any way, then the Earth elemental text would apply.

Since there is no contradiction, it does apply.

Are you really trying to say that Tremorsense is supposed to act like some kind of perfect sense that tells you exactly what something is in a way thats better than divination magic? You're talking out of your ass.

Ass talker.

No they aren't, earth elementals can see rubies and eat them or collect them or do anything else they want to do with them. Duh! Holy crap, I can't believe this argument is still going on. What kind of dumbass do you have to be to seriously argue that earth elementals can't locate and harvest gemstones? That's their fvcking job.

Its not their job. Their job is to be a mildly interesting summoned monster. At no point is there any hint in the rules or flavor text that they are supposed to harvest gems, or that they even have the ability.

You are making shit up.

Shitmaker.

It lives in a sea of earth that extends to infinity in all directions, it had better have some sort of ability to detect things in that medium.

It's born spontaneously from the plane, and has no skills, or needs. Even if we give it Tremorsense, it doesn't NEED a purpose. It doesn't eat, sleep, or mate, so if it can only fight with opponents on the Plane of Earth then thats fine. This is DnD. Lots of crap exists for the sole purpose of being killed by players.

Trying to find meaning in something without meaning is religion.

You're a goddamn priest.

Congratulations! You're going to heaven!

I'm sorry YOU chose to target planar ally with the claim of divine incompetance in delegation. I was talking about planar binding, druid wild shape and everything under the sun with burrowing abilities like nine million posts ago. Get your ass in gear and realise that I'm not changing the subject, YOU are.

Oh, really. Lets Look at your own words:

And If you can't make a planar ally earth elemental with the kind of carrying capacity, overall duration and tireless nature they have pay for itself by the end of the first day you probably are doing something wrong.

The minimum planar ally is at 7th level, lasts 7 days and happens to cost 7000 gp. This medium earth elemental has a modest a carrying capacity of anywhere up to 460lbs for a heavy load. Even if you mostly want him to bring you iron ore or coal he (or another elemental offsetting his cost) can bring you DIAMONDS. Think about how "expensive" that spell is.

Ok, I'm enough of a gentleman to know when I've globbered an opponent in an argument and they are flailing around trying to save face.

I'll change the subject.

Fool's Gold is back in the DnD canon. Its in Power of Faerun, and its a 2nd level Wizard spell and 3rd level Bard spell, and it makes hundreds of pounds of crap look like gold (glamer).

Its looks like DnD is now on the silver standard.

[Username17]

Is it a thing? Is it within 60 feet of the earth elemental? Is it in contact with the ground?

If the answer to those three questions is yes, then the earth elemental knows its exact location. End of discussion.

Secondly, any and all movement abilities apply to all attended objects unless they have a weight limit. That's standard D&D crap. So Demon Teleport has a specific exception to that rule in that it won't take more than 50 pounds of attended objects. An earth elemental does not have that limitation, and can take as many attended objects as it can carry (in the same way that a walk or swim speed would allow you to do so).

Really. Stop being a dumbass for just a moment and think about what you're saying. Earth elementals actually have rules that support the common sense definition of what they do. I know lantern archons don't, but earth elementals actually do.

And the D&D economy is so fvcked that it doesn't even matter.

-Username17

[Fwib]

Where does it say that Earth Elementals get Tremorsense? I glanced at the SRD and my MM, and couldn't see it.

[Username17]

Manual of the Planes, which has a go-to signpost in the 3.5 Planar Handbook.

Which means that if you couldn't find it, I'm not surprised. They certainly didn't make it easy to find. If you want to figure out how Earth Elementals see, you have to figure out that you're supposed to look at the Planar Handbook, and then it tells you to look at a 3rd edition book you might not even own.

It's every bit as bad as the effects of Charm Monster, which don't say that they are a Diplomacy test so much as say that they are a Charisma test with a reference to a page in the DMG. To figure out that they are a Diplomacy test you have to read the diplomacy skill entry which states that Diplomacy can be used instead of the raw ability test listed in the DMG to influence NPC attitude. Then you have to compare the page citations and realize that they are talking about the same test...

-Username17

[Fwib]

You're a teacher aren't you? Making me look stuff up....

[edit] Well, I see that the Earth Element Creature gets Tremorsense (anything within 60ft in contact with the earth)...

[PhoneLobster]

Oh, really. Lets Look at your own words:

And on you go with the same sort of misleading trash talk that is in the end making stuff up and lieing.

You quote me talking about planar ally after YOU narrowed the discussion down.

Some of my earlier mentions went a little like this...

You can even "divine" ores by many other means, best of all by turning into a burrowing animal and going down to check it out. Druids can do this how early?

Infact why dig out the intervening earth at all when you can just have earth elementals and stuff go down there and bring back whatever it was you wanted.

Then this...

Still its much wiser for a wizard or cleric to planar ally or bind an bunch of earth elementals

Then YOU said this...

Planar Ally also costs lots of money and you can't be sure of what you get, so its both a waste of time and a waste of money.

In response to which I THEN said...

And If you can't make a planar ally earth elemental with the kind of carrying capacity, overall duration and tireless nature they have pay for itself by the end of the first day you probably are doing something wrong.

That you proceeded to quote as evidence that I was talking exclusively about planar ally all along.

Its an example of the way you've handled every point on this thread, make crap up, ignore something else and declare a gentlemens victory.

Well I call foul so bad on this one point that I demand a bloody apology.

[RandomCasualty]

Well a few points.

First, planar ally doesn't guarantee you anything. You don't choose what you get, the deity does. It even specifically says that you can request something by name, but have no guarantee of actually getting the thing you request. Planar ally basically amounts to "if the DM says so", because it's not the player's choice.

As for tremorsense, the earth elemental thing would seem to make sense, however from a rules literal point of view, I'm not sure if it entirely holds water, consider that the description of tremorsense in the DMG says the following

A creature with tremorsense automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range

Now this is pretty much identical to the EE text description of the ability, only the DMG description goes further to list movement as a requirement for detection.

Really I don't think a case can be made either way as to what's 'right' there, we really don't know. It would certainly however make more sense if EEs can see everything since their natural environment is a sea of earth. Game balance however would dictate that they shouldn't be able to do so. The rules are from a 3.0 product and unclear, so it's a matter of if you want to side with game balance or flavor.

Also, it might be reasonable to claim that gemstones imbedded in the earth in fact count as part of the ground, not as "touching the ground". Unless you want tremorsense to pick up every individual stone and speck of dirt, it's probably not going to detect things like iron ores and unexcavataed gemstones. So it depends on how you rule on unmined valuables in the earth.

As for earth glide and carrying stuff, I've got to side with Frank on that one. As a general case, movement modes allow you to bring anything you can carry unless there's a specific limitation that says you can't. I don't think it's unreasonable balance and flavor wise to disallow EEs to bring stuff while earth gliding, but it appears to be 100% legal for them to do so.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

This thread delivers!