Name Magic: Unsalvageable

[Username17]

OK, Skill DCs just aren't consistent at various levels. It's a DC 34 to disable the device of a level 9 spell and it's a DC 60 to avoid 4 lousy dice of falling damage. Stupid crap like that litters the landscape. And in keeping with that tradition, the available bonuses to skills are completely varied.

Out there are forest burning sadists who generate skill results in the hundreds or even thousands, and there are 20th level characters who roll a d20 and add 10 for skills that are important to their character concept. So on the face of it, it would seem that any spellcasting system that was based on a skill check was doomed from the start. Any skill DCs set low enough that a character with base ranks could succeed would be laughable to a character with a pile of skill bonuses and any any skill DCs set so high that a character with a skill bonus pile would be literally impossible for the character with base ranks.

And the Naming Magic from Tome of Magic is all that and a bag of chips. Indeed, it goes one step farther and actually sets the DCs in between what a character with base ranks can't pass and a character who puts all the skill bonuses in his pants can't fail. Thus, it requires a character to go dumpster diving for all the weird bonuses to acrue onto skill checks (without which your class abilities don't even work), and then it's broken (as you cast two spells a round that bypass SR). Good times.

The base DC for casting a spell is 15 + double the CR of the creature you are targetting. Which means that at 10th level you're looking at a DC of 35 just to buff your own party (and a DC of 39 to have any say-so about a CR 12 "difficult" opponent). A character with base ranks has a bonus of +13, and cannot succeed either check, even on a Natural 20. On the other hand, a character with a Boosted Intelligence, a Luck Bonus, a sacred bonus, an Insight Bonus, an Enhancement Bonus, and a Competence Bonus to their skill check has a skill bonus of +48, which coincidentally means that they can Quicken their Utterences against that difficult opponent and still succeed on a natural 1.

And did I just say Intelligence? Yes, the skill is based on Int, even though the character is actually a Charisma Caster. So really this is a class whose set-up is that you're a Wizard whose power is directly proportional to how high they can jack up their Profession check result.

There is no part of the True Name Magic in Tome of Magic that is in any way salvageable. This class, this entire way of doing things is a stupid idea from top to bottom and a detriment to any game in which it is included.

-Username17

[Maj]

DC 60 to tumble up from prone as a free action

Where is this?

[Username17]

It isn't anywhere. My mistake, it's a DC 35 to frickin stand up (still provokes AoO in 3.5's infinite wisdom), it's a DC 60 to avoid four whole dice of damage from a fall.

I remembered incorrectly, the listed DC was for a different trivial high-level task.

"Epic" Skill uses are handily replicated here.


-Username17

[Maj]

Thanx, Frank. I don't keep up very well with changes made in 3.5, so I didn't know if they'd changed that or not. Sorry to derail your thread.

[MrWaeseL]

I like how standing on your horse is DC 40.

Anyway, is tome of magic 3rd party? Because I wouldn't be surprised...

[PhoneLobster]

I like how standing on your horse is DC 40.

I like how its like DC 50 and 60 to replicate a 0th level detect magic spell.

DC 60 to tell the difference between a crocodile foot print and an elephants.

And yet only DC 25 to make any crowd of uninterested passersby into a bunch of "helpful" people by performing at them. Perhaps with Belly Dancing or Mime.

Oh and look, knowledge has no epic use. Great. Now I feel REALLY dumb about expending 20 ranks in Knowledge (back of my hand).

[Zherog]

1142592907[/unixtime]] Anyway, is tome of magic 3rd party? Because I wouldn't be surprised...

Nope, it's from WotC, and it introduces yet three more magic systems into the game. Because, ya know, we need more magic systems.

edit: Designer Interview
Excerpts

[MrWaeseL]

Holy shit! I looked at the list of books on the right and I don't know any of them. D&D is turning into Magic, with like 5 new expansions each month.

[Username17]

That's what you get from having a no-playtest cycle. Every month generates 2 books, one supposedly Core Rules and the other a setting book.

So this month we get:

Tome of Magic: Three bad ideas for how to completely change the progression of Magical power across 20 levels written by a couple guys with no oversight and no playtesting. All three are broken beyond belief and completely incompatible with the rest of D&D.

Power of Faerun: This title is not a joke! I know that we have all at various times written about "Power of Faerun" or "Powergamers of Faerun" or whatever, but this time they are dead serious. It's a book about what to do when you rock the realms so much that you can't even adventure anymore because the world is your bitch. It's an entire book about playing house and cock-slapping the DM's campaign world with the Leadership rules and the poorly written organization and business rules in DMG II. A whole book. Just on that.

And next week we get:

The Complete Psionic: Yes, an entire "complete" book with new PrCs and Base Classes just for people who use those stupid classes that don't matter from the XPH. Which means that you can now have rules that are even more obscure than anything you've ever dreamed of. It's a book that is entirely devoted to expanding expansion classes from an optional alternate magic system.

Voyage of the Golden Dragon: A stand-alone adventure for Eberron. I know what you're thinking: "What could be more awesome?"

Fantastic Locations: Fields of Ruin Sounds like an interesting book in the Heroes of Battle series? Wrong. It's just some battlemaps in a cool package. The title doesn't say anything about anything.

So despite coming out with no less than 5 D&D products in the next two months, unless you're interested in alternate magic system there probably aren't any products that are interesting.

-Username17

[Aycarus]

Wizards releasing feces smeared pages just to make money? Shocking.

Honestly, Wizards is in the business of making money. Playtesting takes money out of a product that people will likely buy regardless of how broken it is. I'm assuming they're obliged to keep their income numbers from the D&D line as high as they were when the 3.5e core books came out, which is hardly sustainable in the games industry (there's only so much blood in the stone) unless you make some significant cuts in things such as playtesting.

I actually wonder how many gamers pick up the monthly release from Wizards on a regular basis... I haven't even purchased (or considered purchasing) a book since the BoED.

[PhoneLobster]

I dispute Franks claim about the Complete Psionic.

I hate prestige classes in general. They all tend to suck or go over the top or miraculously do both.

But every prestige class in the history of 3.x psionics has sucked like a raw lemon pickled in high strength vinegar.

Prestige classes like the damnable Illithid Savant scrape together a better showing as a balanced playable psionic prestige class than any actual psionics prestige class I've ever seen.

So a book dedicated primarily to Psionic Prestige Classes isn't going to EXPAND options, its an exercise in futility even if you ARE interested in the optional magic system with the brain in a jar with new age crystals theme.

[Crissa]

I haven't bought anything 3.5 because their race books made me cry.

-Crissa

[fbmf]

My "complete-ist" phase ended with the Waterdeep:City of Splendors. Since then I've only bought Red Hand of Doom and the three Fantastic Locations modules.

Game On,
fbmf

[erik]

1142648536[/unixtime]]I haven't bought anything 3.5 because their race books made me cry.

I was begging for Race books on various WotC threads that I knew the writers were reading back when 3.0 was in full force, and after seeing 3.5's takes on those topics, I guess I needn't have bothered.

I really was shocked when they made the edition switch before fully milking stuff like race books and themes similar to the "x of etc." books. That way they get to charge for them twice like the complete books :: splat books and of course core rules.

It sure seems like they've run way way out of useful ideas and are just producing utter crap to milk the people who buy every frickin book or require the latest unfair class. I can't imagine that market niche can sustain them for much longer, and wonder how far along 4.0 is in the works (predict preview at 2007 gencon).

[power_word_wedgie]

These types of books haven't really interested me. I didn't get the Complete series or any of the Races books. However, I do plan on getting several books like:

1) Much like fbmf, I'm going to get the Fantastic Locations items. Maps are always cool and they come with a small adventure. They look like interesting side quests.

2) I'll get the Monster Manual IV and the Fiendish Codex I. Never can have too many monsters.

3) Adventures. Unfortunately, The Red Hand of Doom is the only one that they are releasing this year that isn't Eberon, IIRC.

4) I'm getting to be a FR junkie. However, I'm not big on the "... of Faerun" books but really the flavor books like Waterdeep, City of Splendor and Lords of Darkness. So, I'll probably go out and get the Mysteries of the Moonsea book.

5) I'll have to keep my ear o the wind concerning Players Handbook II. If it is just some extension of pact magic and such, then I probably won't get it. If it helps clarify some of the stuff in the Players Handbook, then I'll probably get it.

Back to the topic of the thread, that's what it sounds like - people are starting to get at their desired comfort level for variations of magic, prestige classes, and skills. However, as long as WotC keeps pumping out the monster books, adventures, and FR fluff, I'll have something to buy.

[Oberoni]

I really can't fault WotC for churning out legions of books nowadays.

Don't get me wrong, I barely ever buy books anymore, unless they're highly recommended to me (such as the Spell Compendium). Far as I can tell, most of the people in my gaming groups don't buy a lot of new books either.

However, it's not like it hurts me in any way that these things keep coming down the assembly line.

So, as long as there's a target consumer group that really does like to buy poorly playtested, quickly produced WotC books, I'm happy. It keeps WotC in business, which means that they will continue to produce a couple of books a year that I really will buy.

[power_word_wedgie]

Oberoni, that's where I pretty much sit on the issue. It's impossible to publish something that everyone will like. Thus, as long as they publish the way that they are, I'll select which ones that I will purchase. Trying to publish few products to please everyone is just going to make no one happy.

[erik]

I'm not hurt or offended by their production methods, I'm just wondering how much is left of this niche. I highly doubt that their current lines are bringing almost anyone new at all to the game, and less and less people are going to want these books I think. Spamming us with crappy books can't be a good business model, can it? I guess Palladium did alright for themselves.

I will grant that this very month I have made my very first 3.5 purchases. I got spell compendium so that I have everything in one place (and happen to play a bunch of living greyhawk, and it is now *the* spellbook for that campaign). I also got Heroes of Horror with hopes for enjoying the fluff-crunch and such (had a hard time resisting it at less than 20 bucks on amazon when I was already buying the other with free shipping). I haven't gotten a chance to read much of anything in it yet though. I just started up a horror-esque campaign with classless d20 where characters have guidelines for building their characters/classes from the ground up and the book may come in handy.

I held out against 3.5 (ahem, 3.$) as long as I could, and if I hadn't been introduced to Living Greyhawk while my group of close friends stopped roleplaying for a couple years, then I probably would have held out indefinitely. Severe withdrawl can really bring a man down I guess.

[PhoneLobster]

I just wonder what possible appeal endless splat books can have for the market when the subject matter has such obscure un fun themes.

Quality aside these guys are doing things like "Races of humans with glowing letters orbitting their heads" and "Tome of boring magic"

There is some evidence of the market appeal of endless flavours of elf (dark elf, wood elf, chocolate elf, strawberry elf...) and things like fairies and centaurs but where is the market appeal of the rune heads?

There is some obvious appeal to the book of totally elmental wizard dudes. But instead of that we get shadow magic mark 4, mask/spirit crap mark 7 and name magic mark who cares?

There is bound to be market appeal in new and different campaign settings with innovative influences on the way the game is played, or even rehashes of some of the more exciting old ones that people push for like Dark Sun, Spell Jammer, Al Quadim. But we just get "dull as duck shit FR city of the month book" all the excitement of another generic fantasy city already mentioned to some degree in nine million other sources and all that lovingly set in the same FR hodge podge of every dumb fantasy idea ever world we've come to know and despise.

And if thats not enough they bring you the Eberron City of the month which is just soooo different to FR city of the month, ooooh.

Screw it. It hurts. It does. Each of these publications makes it less and less likely they'll publish another book worth actually getting. You could graph my (and many others) spending on WOTC stuff as a steadily declining curve directly proportional to the output of crap. If they produce one book for the rest of this year that I feel is worth buying I'll be surprised.

I'm spending a lot of time hanging round the local game store and gaming community lately. I've seen the WOTC books sales slowly decline to nearly a dead stand still this last 8 months or so. And those few new books I've seen bought (or even just pulled off the shelf and trialed) have NOT survived use for a full play session before gamers essentially gave up on them.

Seriously, the white wolf stuff is getting better sales and following lately. Mongooses Paranoia XP is almost running off the shelfs in comparison (and its hardly making spectacular sales). They can't even manage to keep the old Cthulhu d20 book in stock. But theres a shelf full of the last five months of WOTC just sitting there sulking because nobody loves it anymore.

[power_word_wedgie]

Yes, I have seen some of the WotC books not sell "briskly". However, in the case of my FLGS, I can't say every WotC book has been the same. I went in for the "Red Hand of Doom" two Fridays ago with the owner (a really nice guy) tell me that it had sold out and that it was on order for the following Tuesday. I bought the Waterdeep, City of Splendor (the last one they had) and said, "No problems." I came back the following Tuesday only to find out that it had sold out again. I bought a "D&D for Dummies" book for my wife (she's beginning to start to play) and told him I would be back the following Friday. This time, he held onto an extra copy the next Friday shipment and thus I was able to get the adventure. So some things are selling better than others. I guess that is encouraging for adventures. In the past, the crack against them is that they don't sell. Maybe with the latest sales figures that will encourage them to make more. Personally, I always like adventures.

As for the flavor stuff, I agree that it is completely subjective. I'm not into Ebberon and thus focus on the FR stuff. As for needing to get every single city book, I probably won't do that for FR. However, I'll get the bigger ones and the province/areas.

As for White Wolf and Mongoose, I haven't been seeing them sell that great in my area. The owner buys back old stuff to sell on a used rack and he hasn't been buying too much White Wolf or Mongoose. It just doesn't sell that great. However, I have been buying a board game or two.

[PhoneLobster]

In fact a while ago the store owner was trying to push D&D. He did OK, he sold out his very small supply of core books.

So he tried to order more. Word comes down the supply line. WOTC hasn't been printing any. DMG2 is just coming out, PH2 is around the corner but the ONLY actual core book available was the leather bound collectors edition of the PH, which someone had kindly marked down to the same price as the normal, unavailable and presumably therefore at least for a time more collectable, PH.

The situation lasted for some time, in fact, I've yet to hear that its been remedied.

Its hard for the young gamers around here to show an interest in new releases like the DMG2 or Tome of Magic when they can't actually get the core for love or money.

There still aren't any DMG1s or MM1s on the shelf, and new splat books no one wants keep arriving... for now anyway.

[Crissa]

If faeries and centaurs are popular, why are there so few books and adventures which feature them?

I don't mind that everyone's world has a million elves. I just wish that the elves, were, ya know, magical or something. At least the ones in WoW turn invisible, absorb moonbeams, or eat magic and they all live in grandiose palaces which survive longer than the mountains themselves - even though these elves can create them nearly instantly. That's at least, ya know, kinda neat.

People with numbers floating about their heads is what most fan-fics are about. And D&D has always had the flavour of the year which blotted out everything else - but that's a given.

I don't think 4.0 is being worked on. It would take, ya know, game designers, and these guys are akin to programmers.

But Wizards is owned by Hasbro, who makes toys and sure, they pay designers handsomely - but they don't keep them on staff once the product has been developed.

They're going to feed us monthly drek until the return rate on a book exceeds the sellthrough... Then we might get a poorly thoughtout relaunch of 3.5 called 4.0, but that's it. No more design will ever happen.

So really, this is the end of D&D as we knew it. I don't know how many more years it'll decay like this - it took fifteen years of no redesigning for TSR to kick the bucket, and they at least pretended to make new game. Hasbro doesn't even do that.

-Crissa

[Username17]

I don't think 4.0 is being worked on.

Oh hellz yes it is. That's the whole point of Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic. They hit a no-playtest cycle some time ago because they can get people to pay money to playtest their ideas. The stuff they've brought out lately hasn't really been usable, but it has had radical departures from standard operating procedures with incredibly unfinished mechanics.

3.5 has been a dress rehersal for 4th edition from the start, and now they're going ape with it. They are releasing all their really weird ideas and watching people poke holes in them. Essentially they're throwing a bunch of shit at the wall to see what will stick, and then they're use that for 4th edition.

---

Based on the really shitty realities that dog the life of a True Namer, I would expect Sorcerers in 4th edition to use a mechanic that is highly reminiscent of the Shadow Caster.

-Username17

[power_word_wedgie]

1142914271[/unixtime]]So really, this is the end of D&D as we knew it. I don't know how many more years it'll decay like this - it took fifteen years of no redesigning for TSR to kick the bucket, and they at least pretended to make new game. Hasbro doesn't even do that.

I remember the same argument back in the mid-1980's. I must be getting old.

[Aycarus]

So, with clear and increasing disdain for D&D, what have people done about it? I imagine that most people still find core D&D reasonably acceptable, or simply have no interest / desire to learn about the other options out there. With no shortage of alternative game systems available, why do you still stick with D&D?

Personally, I've looked at several other game systems, but found that there were much more severe problems with the design of the system, or even a lack of creative options. D&D seems to monopolize the fantasy gaming genre at the moment, so I don't see people abandoning it quite yet...